Discipline in our schools

deanswift

Discipline in secondary schools
Anyone of the idea that organisation and discipline is getting worse in our schools (primary and secondary).
Reports from OECD and other reports such as PISA show Ireland's position in international league tables slipping and before you or I start bashing teachers (apparently short working week, long holidays etc etc) there are other partners in the education debate: home, Dept of Ed, society and so on. Literacy and numeracy attainment levels have dropped alarmingly.
Junior and Leaving Cert programmes seem to be overcrowded and irrelevant to present day needs.
Adolescents nowadays have a taste for adult lifestyle booze, drugs etc.
All are agreed that what's needed in a depression is a sound practical education and our kids seem not to be getting this so who, what is to blame?
We all know and accept that there's no money to solve the problem but is money the issue?
Has parenting changed? Has Dept of Ed + Sci listened to too many advisors over the years and lost the road map to a half decent education?
Society rather than contributing to the solution of the problem seems to want young people to be part of the shop 'till u drop mentality and overly commercialising our youth.

looksee

Is the first sentence of your post a question?

I am possibly not the best person to answer this as I am in a PLC and really do not have these issues, but still, I am entitled to an opinion, I think.

Students over the past maybe 20 years are the product of a society that strongly supports the 'rights of the individual'. While this is not a bad thing in itself, any stress on the obligations of the individual has got lost along the way.

Teachers can only control a class of around 30 teenagers by force of personality. There are no real sanctions - threat of detention is not an immediate sanction and can easily exacerbate a situation in a class where the students know that the detention will not necessarily be enforced.

The fact that many teachers can in fact control a group of teenage students says much for their skill and dedication. In a situation where a small group in a class makes teaching more akin to crowd control than education, what is the individual teacher supposed to do? Go to the parents? They are more likely to get abuse than support. Throw the offenders out of the class? You can't do that, health and safety, etc, and anyway it is not a long term solution - the offenders are more than likely happy to be turned out.

The 'system' might have solutions for the worst offenders, but an individual doesn't have to do much more than persistently talk, without being overtly rude or offensive, to disturb a class.

It is also fair to comment that an individual, very weak teacher can create problems for other teachers by letting a class get out of hand, but it is not the responsibility of other teachers to deal with that.

School principals are also aware that sanctions against a student can end up with legal proceedings against the school, and very little support from higher up.

So yes, it may well be true that standards are dropping. I would think that some of the solutions would be:

not trying to put all students through an academic education when they are not interested or capable of it,

hope that people will recognise that there is a need for a sense of obligation towards society, as well as a sense of entitlement,

give teachers the support they need to maintain classroom discipline.

freire

Well they certainly 'grow up' a bit quicker, quite a bit in fact, than in my day.

But grow up is not the correct phrase. As you say they're exposed to a lot more 'adult' stimuli than before. I mean while I'm no prude, and I mean that, some of the 'stuff' I hear from 13 - 15 year olds is truly quite jaw dropping. On sexual behaviour, drug/drink use and abuse, racial stereotypes etc.

I think that they're actually more immature in many ways than a generation or two before them. Autonomy of thought and learning are alien concepts to the majority, and problem solving is very poor on the whole. Concentration spans are limited. Blaming everyone else (usually teachers) for their lack of comprehension of even the fundamentals of many subjects is alarmingly common.

Maybe it depends where you work, but I do find a distinctly lazy attitude to work and learning is prevalent. Many students, if they don't 'get' an idea or solve a problem instantly, they shut off.

Also a great many seem to know a huge amount about 'rights' but very little about responsibilities, as the adage goes. Although again this may have something to do with the clientele I am engaging with.

I really enjoy my job, but I can't help wondering if most of the kids I work with don't value education in the slightest. It's just a trial and 'effort'. It's not seen as an important stage on the path to whatever one might aspire to be.

To be honest I think too many expect things handed to them and if they're not learning then it must be someone else's fault. Not the fact that they won't listen for more than 30 seconds at a time.

There is also often a distinctly defiant attitude. Which is wearing and not what would have been considered 'normal' even ten years ago.

I'm sounding old and bitter, and I could go on, and on but yeah, kids today eh?

byhookorbycrook

There is a gap that is getting wider between children coming to school- those who can sit, concentrate and maintain good behaviour vs those who have never seen a book, have been plonked in front of tv and start at an immediate disadvantage.

deanswift

I am forming the opinion that there is another factor in the poor performance of our children in school and it is 'the parents'.
Without doubt parenting skills have deteriorated over the last 20/30 years.
This is base on my observations of children and parents or guardians in public situation such as shopping centres and public transport........it is now normal for parents to tolerate children screaming, swearing and bullying their younger brothers and sisters.
Now parents will intervene but in an inappropriate way usually by shouting and never by reasoning with the child as to why their behaviour is 'bold' and not to be repeated. This in my opinion sends out the wrong message to the child and the child has not learned any lesson from the 'rollicking' meted out to them.

spurious

Myself, I feel many of them suffer from not having had a 'cranky granny', whose house you went to and sat quietly and did not interrupt adults and did not shout and learned the skills to behave yourself when you needed to.