The North Beach stone structures

nobby grande

Hi all, i frequently walk my dog along the north beach in Greystones from the new walkway down from St.Crispins towards Bray Head. When you come to the end of the beach and the tide is out, there are huge stone clad structures which look like the remnants of an old sea wall or mooring dock. Can anyone tell me who built these structres and for what purpose?
Was there an old harbour down that end? There are also some large iron poles that come out of the water when the tide goes out. Any information\pictures on the history of the north beach would be much appreciated.

Dunphus

nobby grande wrote: »

Hi all, i frequently walk my dog along the north beach in Greystones from the new walkway down from St.Crispins towards Bray Head. When you come to the end of the beach and the tide is out, there are huge stone clad structures which look like the remnants of an old sea wall or mooring dock. Can anyone tell me who built these structres and for what purpose?
Was there an old harbour down that end? There are also some large iron poles that come out of the water when the tide goes out. Any information\pictures on the history of the north beach would be much appreciated.

I'm finding it hard to find info on it but weren't there cottages down at the seafront and there was a flood and they got washed away or something similar? I don't remember the exact details but a friend of the family was living in one of these cottages at the time

dr ro

Just looking on www.opw.ie at article and photo of row of houses on north beach from 1930. Can't picture where they'd have been.

loyatemu

the OP is talking about the northern end of the beach so it wouldn't have been those cottages. Something to do with the railway would be my guess, the original line of the railway went around the outside of bray head and there were a number of viaducts involved.

Charlie-Bravo

Have a look at osi.ie and see if any of the maps can give you an idea of what may have been there. Here's a quick link to a zoomed in area where you cross a stream/river http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,728619,714477,7,9 You can toggle between today's street map and the historic 25" map.

I hope I get a thanks for my 1,000th post!

Alun

astrofluff wrote: »

Have a look at osi.ie and see if any of the maps can give you an idea of what may have been there. Here's a quick link to a zoomed in area where you cross a stream/river http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,728619,714477,7,9 You can toggle between today's street map and the historic 25" map.

I hope I get a thanks for my 1,000th post!

You can also blend in the modern day map with whatever map you have chosen to see where they overlap (Overlay slider under all the map choices). It's very clear where the course of the railway line has changed!

Fiachra2

There was a wall built along the base of the cliff to prevent erosion. I guess it was built to protect the old railway track which ran outside the cliff before the long tunnel was built. When I was young there was still some sections of the wall standing. What you can see now is butresses that supported the wall which itself now has almost completley vanished

Blandpebbles

It was the original coastal railway line and decked promenade.

vinpaul

Dunphus wrote: »

I'm finding it hard to find info on it but weren't there cottages down at the seafront and there was a flood and they got washed away or something similar? I don't remember the exact details but a friend of the family was living in one of these cottages at the time

From what I have been told, the cottages that you mention were known as Fishermen's Cottages and were indeed wiped out during storms in possibly 1929. They were close to or just beyond the present sailing club.
Peter Mc Niff's book "Stories from a Small Town" makes references to the storm. Chapter 20 on Michael Kinsella gives an account and a map of 1883 showing some of the houses that were lost.
Another reference is on page 253 which mentions "Series of storms circa 1924 - 30 that undermined the North Beach Road and sent houses tumbling into the sea. The most destructive year was 1929"
This may give you something to go on.

nobby grande

That is all interesting stuff, thanks. I think the stone structures may well have come from cliff's above and not from a contructed building on the sea's edge. Considering the near daily visible erosion of the north beach's cliff's at present, it isnt inconcievable to imagine there being quite alot of man-made structures that tumbled into the sea from the cliffs above. When the sea comes all the way in for spring tides it does huge damage to the cliffs and obviously has been doing since forever. Some photographical \ ordanance survey evidence of the original railway line route and viaducts would be great to see for definite.

Greystoned

There are two separate issues here: 1. the original railway which ran right along the North Beach (just like it runs alongside the South Beach still). 2. The line of cottages which were a continuation of the existing three or so houses on the North Beach Road. These cottages collapsed into the sea over the 1929 to early 1930s period. However this whole area is now completely absorbed into the Marina construction site, completely wiped out and inaccessible anyhow. I often wonder at the wisdom of granting planning permission for 100s of apartments even closer to the shore than the original cottages, but let's not go there!!
Because of coastal erosion the railway was moved inland more than once. You may notice/remember (if you went exploring around there) that there is a double-embankment behind the sailing club or slightly further north (about 50 yards twds B. Head) (not sure if this is accessible or clear any more with the harbour works). It was from around here (possibly around the middle of the line of cottages, but unconnected to their history) that the major inland diversion started. It (of course) also involved the construction of the long tunnel. Although only 1000 yards long it’s sometimes called “Mile-long” tunnel! And once trains started using it in 1917, the Gap Bridge (recently removed perhaps?) was no longer needed.
The Gap Bridge itself was also part of an earlier (less major, and less successful) inland diversion (1888-1890), and therefore there was an earlier "Gap Bridge" - destroyed around the time of the Second World War by the army (who were very present in Greystones during WW2) because it was becoming dangerous.
I think the large stones discussed in the first post were supports and protection etc for the original line as it began to round Bray Head at the very far end of the N. Beach. There were also some inland diversions further north – note how you can see at least one disused tunnel in the mile or so after you emerge from the long tunnel as you travel towards Bray/Dublin.
You also mention iron poles which I never noticed. Perhaps something to do with mini-walls (excuse the lack of engineering language) constructed at regular intervals along the beach and perpendicular to the shoreline. These “walls can be seen in old photos.
You can also see a small inland diversion south of Greystones as well – if you walk along the South Beach towards Kilcoole, you will see the old track path just after you go past Chalesland Golf Course.
Back to the North Beach, somewhere between the Gap Bridge (also called Ennis' Bridge) and the end-point of the beach (where the stones are) was an area called Morris' Crossing - not sure who Morris was etc. but track crossing appears on old maps. Perhaps (feel free to correct or suggest!) he was a farmer and this crossing was his right-of-way to the beach? (Note how the two “arches” exist south of the town as well – probably insisted upon as right-of-ways to the South Beach by the Burnaby (Whitshed, when the railway was built) farm.)
Most of my information comes from Derek Paine’s seven books, although the osi maps are excellent as well. Peter McNiff’s book is a unique treasure because he got down on paper the words of people who lived through those times – including the unfortunate occupants of the North Beach houses.
DR. RO: maybe you could say how to get to the info posted on the opw.ie website? I’m having trouble finding any reference to Greystones there.

Fiachra2

If you look through Derek Paines books. (I presume they are in the Library?) you will see photographs of the wall Greystoned and I referred to. also if tyou examine teh cliff below you as you walk towards Bray head you will still see remenants of the path of the old track.

Greystoned

Here’s a screen-shot of the 25-inch osi map (from around 1885, I think). At this point the first diversion of the railway has taken place and both Gap Bridges are standing at the sea-end of Ennis’ Lane. (Just to be clear this is a good half-mile south of where the first poster is referring to.)
Speaking of stone structures on the N. Beach, there were some bits and pieces left over from the first bridge still there in the 70s and 80s. Not sure if still around. AND, there were also some substantial lumps of concrete/stonework further south around where the washed-away cottages were. I read that these were left-overs of a house called Jubilee Castle (a.k.a Rosetta Fort) which was the last house (if traveling northwards) on North Beach Rd. Like almost all the rest (the first three houses, closest to the harbor survived and still do) it was washed into the sea.

dr ro

DR. RO: maybe you could say how to get to the info posted on the opw.ie website? I’m having trouble finding any reference to Greystones there.


http://www.floodmaps.ie/View/FloodPressArchives.aspx?Type=Press%20Archive&FloodId=3692

Greystoned

Here's a link to some old pictures of Greystones - some of which show what the North Beach Rd looked like before the 1930s.

http://www.myhometown.ie/Wicklow/Greystones/378/

Have a look at "Panoramic view of Bray Head and town", "Panoramic view of the village facing North", and "The Beach with the Sugarloaf Mountain in background" in particular.

The first three houses are very recognizable - they did not change much since then - but after them you can see several cottages and Jubilee Castle/Rosetta Fort at the very end.

Unfortunately, the pictures are not clear enough to show the original path of the railway, or the original Gap Bridge.

recedite

Greystoned wrote: »

Here’s a screen-shot of the 25-inch osi map (from around 1885, I think).

Are there any remains to be seen now of the Rathdown Castle? Presumably they would be near to where the Gap Bridge was (that's now a ramp down to the beach).

Greystoned

I don't think there's much left of Rathdown Castle. I believe some of it was used to build the ... Gap Bridge! I remember as a kid ... there was some structure/ruins to the north-west corner of Darcy's field (the soccer fields). (This would be on your right, immeadiately after you cross the track at Ennis' Lane as you walk towards the sea.) BUT that might have been to do with a more recent construction. I think some of the site might have been built on for water treatment works - since replaced by newer installation near Charlesland Golf Course.

Not sure if St. Crispin's Cell is linked to the castle or not.

There is an excellent book about all this. I saw a copy in the library a few years ago - you could have a look there. I'd like a copy of this. In fact in looks like Greystones really started out right there.

Title: Ancient Rathdown and St. Crispin's Cell: a uniquely historic landscape -- Author: Friends of Historic Rathdown - Editor: Chris Smal -- Publisher: Friends of Historic Rathdown, 1993 -- ISBN: 0952152606, 9780952152606 -- Length: 48 pages

recedite

The Castle must have been in the area between the path down to the sea and the stream. The area is mostly overgrown with gorse now, so it would be difficult to see anything, if there was anything there.

dathi

hi greystoned the structure you are talking about was a lime kiln it was demolished in 1985 when the sewage works were being upgraded on the site . when the original sewage works were built in the 70s work was stopped briefly when a sword was discovered during excavation . the hoard of coins were found in the field north of the lane. the structures on the north beach were part of the sea defense for the railway. i can remember them running in one continuous wall from morris's lane north to the head and about 10 feet tall when the tide was out.

Greystoned

Hi Dathi (and everybody), interesting that you remember the sea defense for the railway and interesting that you mention Morris's Lane. Just to verify with you: Morris's Lane is separate from Ennis's Lane (also called the Grove Lane or just The Grove) - right? I get the impression from photos (in D Paine's books) that it is/was further north at the northern end of the long field which begins at the Gap.

I didn't know about the coins - I read of a similar find in Delgany - I think it was in Judith Flannery's history of Delgany.

Lime Kiln: this I do remember right at the GapBridge. Shame that it was destroyed. Some good info on Lime Kilns here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_kiln. The kiln to the south of Greystones was preserved as a feature in Charlesland Golf Course. I wonder if there are others around?

I was not thinking of the Lime Kiln when I mentioned about some ruins/structure earlier (#17 post). I was referring to the north-west corner of Darcy’s field about, in other words south-west from the Lime Kiln. Somewhere between the Lime Kiln (or the sewage works that obliterated it) and the (current position of the) railway track. However, I’m not sure if that was the site of the castle. There is a steam there – but historians mention the castle having a fresh-water spring which would remove the necessity to be just beside the stream.

dathi

hi greystoned ye morris's lane was at the top of the long field north of the gap roughly in line with the start of the railway tunnel the cliff walk used to turn in in a large D shape and when we were kids we were able to get down to the beach there. you are kind of right with ennis's lane it ran from the original gap bridge up to the old cottages in the grove and turned right up past the new gated housing estate (northgate?) up past foxes farm and out onto windgates the middle section of that lane is very overgrown now . the road down past the cemetery to the grove was only put in in the 40s when the cottages were built. is the wall you are talking about just as you go through the railway gates heading for the beach? that wall lines up with the wall in the grove and looks like the railway cut through it. also i can remember a second wall running parallel to it in the field behind the farm yard it was very broken down and lots missing but it made it look like an enclosed field like a walled garden.

Greystoned

Hi Dathi, I attached a screen-shot of where (as a kid - it's many moons ago, so memory could be playing tricks on me) I thought there were some ruins or structure of some description. The red-cross marks the area I'm thinking of (# 17 post).

HOWEVER, I googled up some stuff on Rathdown Castle and it would appear that this is not the right spot. It was indeed where the sewage works were - just west of and right beside the Gap Bridge (answer to recidite's question).

See some good inputs here from Paddy Hogan and sagat.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=62643327

Paddy mentions the spring along Ennis's Lane. Now that I read his post, I definitely remember the spring. I remember even getting to the Cliff Walk by crossing the "long field" (field which ends at Morris's Lane) in order to avoid getting my shoes drenched by that very spring. However, I just assumed it was a broken mains pipe or some modern explanation, and cursed WCC every time I took the dog that way! There was a secondary path on a sort of raised ditch to the left-hand side (heading to the sea) as well - worn by people trying to avoid getting their good Sunday shoes soaked, no doubt.

You solved Morris's Lane for me. Now that you say it, I do indeed remember the curious D shape the cliff walk took right about there. Also, was there a little gate or stile to the left (walking towards Bray) about halfway through the "D"? I don't think I ever accessed the beach from there - perhaps the erosion had done too much damage by "my time"?

Lance Vance

On the subject of the railway line; the original railway line was designed by the engineer Isambard Kingdom Brunel. It is known as Brunel's folly as it has been realigned a number of times due to the effects of erosion.

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Bray%20Head/Irish%20Railway%20Stations.html

There was a derailment in 1867 resulting in two fatalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bray_Head_railway_accident,_1867.jpg

Greystoned

Thanks Lance, very nice website and some great photos of the line some showing traces of where it used to be. Another good one here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ayres/5867478575/. I wonder will the line ever be doubled!

All this "relocating" the line was probably fatal to Rathdown Castle's ruins - admittedly it was in ruins by the laying of even the first Bray-Greystones track - as the ruins were right by the Gap Bridge. As said earlier there were two of these - the second of which just disappeared recently. For both constructions the castle ruins were temptingly close for obtaining stones/bricks.

DubOnHoliday

Certainly wouldn't have liked to be a train driver on any of the original allignments!!!

Greystoned

Just for people following this thread - we talked about a row of houses on the North Beach Rd which were washed away by the sea over a few years around 1930. The last house (as you traveled north) on the road was called "Jubilee Castle" or "Rosetta Fort" - not sure why it had two names. It is absent from some of the earlier photos of Greystones, so was probably built in the mid-1800s. It was built on the site of ANOTHER Lime Kiln - which appears along the North Beach in very early photos. I'm not great at judging distances but it might have been about 150 or 200 yards north of the Lifeboat House - now Sweeney's Amusements.

Anyhow, don't confuse this with Rathdown Castle which dates from centuries ago and was already in ruins by the mid 1800s. It had come and gone before "The Gray Stones" was even on the map. It was further north at Ennis's Lane, where a more recent Lime Kiln and the Gap Bridges would be built.

On the subject of the railway, here's some info about the track from town to Greystones: http://www.industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=Connolly+Station+to+Greystones.