Archbishop Chaput: The Church Is "A Heretic Of The World's New Order"

Donatello

This is excellent:

Earlier in the week, Archbishop Charles Chaput gave a speech at the 15th Symposium of the Canon Law Association of Slovakia, entitled "Living Within The Truth: Religious Liberty and Catholic Mission in the New Order of the World". It is riveting and inspiring, and ought to be read by everyone. Here is but a mere excerpt:

Writing in the 1960s, Richard Weaver, an American scholar and social philosopher, said: “I am absolutely convinced that relativism must eventually lead to a regime of force.”

He was right. There is a kind of “inner logic” that leads relativism to repression.

This explains the paradox of how Western societies can preach tolerance and diversity while aggressively undermining and penalizing Catholic life. The dogma of tolerance cannot tolerate the Church’s belief that some ideas and behaviors should not be tolerated because they dehumanize us. The dogma that all truths are relative cannot allow the thought that some truths might not be.

The Catholic beliefs that most deeply irritate the orthodoxies of the West are those concerning abortion, sexuality and the marriage of man and woman. This is no accident. These Christian beliefs express the truth about human fertility, meaning and destiny.

These truths are subversive in a world that would have us believe that God is not necessary and that human life has no inherent nature or purpose. Thus the Church must be punished because, despite all the sins and weaknesses of her people, she is still the bride of Jesus Christ; still a source of beauty, meaning and hope that refuses to die -- and still the most compelling and dangerous heretic of the world’s new order.

[...]

The temptation in every age of the Church is to try to get along with Caesar. And it’s very true: Scripture tells us to respect and pray for our leaders. We need to have a healthy love for the countries we call home. But we can never render unto Caesar what belongs to God. We need to obey God first; the obligations of political authority always come second. We cannot collaborate with evil without gradually becoming evil ourselves. This is one of the most vividly harsh lessons of the 20th century. And it’s a lesson that I hope we have learned.

READ ON HERE.

I was wondering where I could post this to get a response from some secularists. Things seem awfully quiet here in the Christianity forum.

antiskeptic

Donatello wrote:

I was wondering where I could post this to get a response from some secularists. Things seem awfully quiet here in the Christianity forum.

Since the article discusses the relativists, why not post it over in the RelativistsRUs (A&A)forum. They might have a view why all 'truths' aren't equally valid


For myself, I see nothing new in the world hating and persecuting Christs church now. It always has and always will - whether secular relativism or theocracy is the order of the day. There are plenty of places in the world where Christians are being killed.

Then there are the things which the church of Christ is right to be hated for - that about her which appalls (and I'm not just speaking about the failings of the One True Church here) and which removes the foundations her self-proclaimed right to pronounce on moral issues. The relativists might be militant but their not burning me at the stake.

I'd be of the opinion that if Mandela or Ghandi spoke against aborton and gay marriage the world would give them a more favorable ear.

Donatello

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that if Mandela or Ghandi spoke against aborton and gay marriage the world would give them a more favorable ear.

I'm not so sure about that. If any popular figure spoke against abortion, they'd be likely ignored and side-lined. Think of Norma McCorvery (Jane Roe of Roe V. Wade) who was pro-abort but switched sides, or Martin Luther King's niece, who is also a pro-life advocate. If they don't like you and your views, they ignore you.

Morbert

Typical nonsense. What deeply irritates us is not Catholic belief, but the way some Catholics whine about the fact that "the West" doesn't give a damn about their beliefs.

Ireland is a country where homosexual state marriage is recognised (albeit under the circumlocution of "civil union"). Ireland is a country where contraception is legal, and "morning after pill" abortifacents are legal. If you don't like it, then lobby for change. But don't feel sorry for yourselves by complaining about oppression.

Many people think your moral stances are crap. Either get over it or change their opinion.

Morbert

antiskeptic wrote: »

Since the article discusses the relativists, why not post it over in the RelativistsRUs (A&A)forum. They might have a view why all 'truths' aren't equally valid.

Atheists, generally speaking, aren't normative relativists. We don't believe all moral claims are equally valid.

Zombrex

Donatello wrote: »

I was wondering where I could post this to get a response from some secularists. Things seem awfully quiet here in the Christianity forum. [/SIZE]

I'm happy to respond.

While I've no doubt that there are rare genuine cases of oppression against Catholics in the west, the vast majority reported (particularly on this forum) seem to be little more than Catholics throwing their toys out of the pram because their privileged place in society is no longer so privileged, and society is not longer respecting their endemic notions of intolerance.

The attempts recently to paint Catholics as some hugely oppressed minority seem to be little more than a thinly veiled attempt to distract from the continuos outrage at the sexual abuse scandal that still holds the attention of most of society.

This is not a particularly uncommon tactic that groups found engaged in immoral or criminal acts resort to, though one that one would have hoped the RCC could have raised above such tactics.

Contrast how the RCC are treated in the west to how religious groups are treated in places like China and you will see how ridiculous (and some what insulting to those suffering genuine systematic oppression and denial of freedom) such accusations are by an organisation that still is the only religion with an officially recognized country representing it.

Zombrex

Donatello wrote: »

If they don't like you and your views, they ignore you.

Ignoring someone is a form of oppression now, is it :P

You might want to tell that to someone in China or Saudi Arabia, who would long for the day when the government simply ignored them, rather than beating them up and throwing them in prison.

himnextdoor

Donatello wrote: »

These truths are subversive in a world that would have us believe that God is not necessary and that human life has no inherent nature or purpose. Thus the Church must be punished because, despite all the sins and weaknesses of her people, she is still the bride of Jesus Christ; still a source of beauty, meaning and hope that refuses to die -- and still the most compelling and dangerous heretic of the world’s new order.

The church is the author of its own destruction. In fact, one could say that it is divorcing Jesus in order to become the Bride of the New World Order.

Do you honestly think that the church is in the state it is in by accident?

When any other powerful institution runs into the kind of problems that the church has, someone gets sacrificed. Whether it be by sacking, scandalising, prosecuting or assassinating, someone takes the fall, become blamed.

Why didn't the church do this?

Let me put it this way; if at the time the child-abuse scandal within the Catholic church was breaking into the news the Pope had come out in support of the victims and stated his determination to deal with the problem by all means necessary, many people, victims, families of victims, would have felt vindicated.

In the end though, the response of the Vatican was a PR disaster; the church appeared to indulge in protectionism and seemed not to have any sympathy for those who had suffered at the hands of the clergy.

Doesn't it seem strange that one of the most powerful institutions on the planet contrived to lose its integrity? Didn't all those clever men who drafted out the church response to the problem realise that just a small piece of appeasement would be all that was required to mollify its adherents?

In my view there are two possible reasons for this:

1, If child-abuse was more prevalent in society than we are led to believe it is, a serious inquiry might have exposed a much deeper corruption and the church, or others, were not prepared to risk a total collapse of faith, or

2, That the church has 'sold out' to another authority and has a vested interest in 'allowing' the church to fall into disrepute and decay.

Either way, the church plotted its own course.

Donatello

himnextdoor wrote: »

The church is the author of its own destruction. In fact, one could say that it is divorcing Jesus in order to become the Bride of the New World Order.

Do you honestly think that the church is in the state it is in by accident?

When any other powerful institution runs into the kind of problems that the church has, someone gets sacrificed. Whether it be by sacking, scandalising, prosecuting or assassinating, someone takes the fall, become blamed.

Why didn't the church do this?

Let me put it this way; if at the time the child-abuse scandal within the Catholic church was breaking into the news the Pope had come out in support of the victims and stated his determination to deal with the problem by all means necessary, many people, victims, families of victims, would have felt vindicated.

In the end though, the response of the Vatican was a PR disaster; the church appeared to indulge in protectionism and seemed not to have any sympathy for those who had suffered at the hands of the clergy.

Doesn't it seem strange that one of the most powerful institutions on the planet contrived to lose its integrity? Didn't all those clever men who drafted out the church response to the problem realise that just a small piece of appeasement would be all that was required to mollify its adherents?

In my view there are two possible reasons for this:

1, If child-abuse was more prevalent in society than we are led to believe it is, a serious inquiry might have exposed a much deeper corruption and the church, or others, were not prepared to risk a total collapse of faith, or

2, That the church has 'sold out' to another authority and has a vested interest in 'allowing' the church to fall into disrepute and decay.

Either way, the church plotted its own course.

You have to be careful when you use the word 'Church'. The 'Church' is the spotless Bride of Christ. The sins and omissions of some of Her members is another matter. This distinction is very important.

himnextdoor

Donatello wrote: »

You have to be careful when you use the word 'Church'. The 'Church' is the spotless Bride of Christ. The sins and omissions of some of Her members is another matter. This distinction is very important.

My apologies, you are quite right.

I should have said that the Church may have been 'sold out'.

the culture of deference

It makes me laugh to hear christians and catholics complaining about being oppressed. Ignore your local priest and read about the history of your church.
This country was ruined by the churches grip on our society.

Keylem

the culture of deference wrote: »

It makes me laugh to hear christians and catholics complaining about being oppressed. Ignore your local priest and read about the history of your church.
This country was ruined by the churches grip on our society.

Since the Church lost it's 'grip' on society, I for one cannot see where things have improved! In fact society is freefalling into chaos!

Read the following blog!

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/category/daily-journal/

himnextdoor

Keylem wrote: »

Since the Church lost it's 'grip' on society, I for one cannot see where things have improved! In fact society is freefalling into chaos!

Read the following blog!

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/category/daily-journal/

But the Church should have been the last casualty of decay, not the first.

How long is it since evil first infiltrated the Church?

Also, I would just say that a tendency to trust creates exploitable opportunities for the 'hyenas' of the world.

The message should be 'Watch your back and watch the backs of your neighbour's too.'

As opposed to, 'Be trusting and hope for the best.'

Donatello

himnextdoor wrote: »

But the Church should have been the last casualty of decay, not the first.

How long is it since evil first infiltrated the Church?

Also, I would just say that a tendency to trust creates exploitable opportunities for the 'hyenas' of the world.

The message should be 'Watch your back and watch the backs of your neighbour's too.'

As opposed to, 'Be trusting and hope for the best.'

The Church is full of sinners. That is to be expected.

The Catholic Church in Ireland had become a monstrous sham. I'm glad that what is rotten is coming crashing down, and I say that as a believing Catholic convinced that the RCC is the OTC. But the Church here had largely lost its saltiness and become ineffective and dysfunctional. Of course there was, and is, always a faithful remnant, but much of what we see and call the Catholic Church here in Ireland is not authentic, from the schools to the seminary to what passes for divine worship in most places, and the humanistic preaching of a 'Catholic Lite' which denies the people the truth of the Gospel so as to keep as many bums on seats as possible, which takes place is so many parishes.

God the surgeon is at work and it is painful but good things will come in due course. Pope Benedict would hold the beleif that a time of trial and pruning willr esult in a smaller, purer Church, instead of the numbers game we've been playing (and are still playing in many ways) for so long.

"From today’s crisis, a Church will emerge tomorrow that will have lost a great deal. She will be small and, to a large extent, will have to start from the beginning. She will no longer be able to fill many of the buildings created in her period of great splendor. Because of the smaller number of her followers, she will lose many of her privileges in society. Contrary to what has happened until now, she will present herself much more as a community of volunteers... As a small community, she will demand much more from the initiative of each of her members and she will certainly also acknowledge new forms of ministry and will raise up to the priesthood proven Christians who have other jobs... There will be an interiorized Church, which neither takes advantage of its political mandate nor flirts with the left or the right. This will be achieved with effort because the process of crystallization and clarification will demand great exertion. It will make her poor and a Church of the little people... All this will require time. The process will be slow and painful."

himnextdoor

Donatello wrote: »

The Church is full of sinners. That is to be expected.

The Catholic Church in Ireland had become a monstrous sham. I'm glad that what is rotten is coming crashing down, and I say that as a believing Catholic convinced that the RCC is the OTC. But the Church here had largely lost its saltiness and become ineffective and dysfunctional. Of course there was, and is, always a faithful remnant, but much of what we see and call the Catholic Church here in Ireland is not authentic, from the schools to the seminary to what passes for divine worship in most places, and the humanistic preaching of a 'Catholic Lite' which denies the people the truth of the Gospel so as to keep as many bums on seats as possible, which takes place is so many parishes.

God the surgeon is at work and it is painful but good things will come in due course. Pope Benedict would hold the beleif that a time of trial and pruning willr esult in a smaller, purer Church, instead of the numbers game we've been playing (and are still playing in many ways) for so long.

That seems fair.

But should we await the order from God to 'man the pumps', so to speak or would it please God if we used our own initiative and forced the issue.

I mean, on the basis that the Church has rotten-ness within it, shouldn't it just be torn down and let us trust that God will preserve the good, if any, that is in it?

Donatello

himnextdoor wrote: »

That seems fair.

But should we await the order from God to 'man the pumps', so to speak or would it please God if we used our own initiative and forced the issue.

I mean, on the basis that the Church has rotten-ness within it, shouldn't it just be torn down and let us trust that God will preserve the good, if any, that is in it?

Let's kill them all. God will know his own. That idea has occurred to me.

But back to my reality... I have actually considered the possibility of launching a new inquisition. No burning or anything like that. What this would do examine all the aspects of life in the Church in Ireland, from seminaries, to schools, to parish activities and so forth. It would also give all dissident priests and bishops the opportunity to leave the Church quietly. They would be given a good will payment (say £400 max?) and sent on their way. I can't see many of them taking up that option willingly, and the last thing you want to do is to force them underground so they pretend they are faithful when they are not.

No, I'm afraid only time will take care of this problem - what Fr. Zuhlsdorf calls the biological solution. Liberalism does not bear fruit. In God's time, the liberal project will die a good death and we can get on with the business of being the Church and doing God's work. The problem with my solution and your approach is that it kills everything - the good and the bad, the weeds and the wheat - everything is ripped up. It's tough, but we have to be patient. I was once a dissenter from faith and morals (in many ways I still am! :eek: I still sin, and so forth) but I am trying, miserably, to be faithful, and I am also not trying to lead others astray, unlike some priests and even bishops who ought to know better. There are many lukewarm souls within the Church who would thrive if only they were given the proper nourishment and guidance which is lacking at present in so many different ways.