How does this state rebuild Ireland's reputation?

Dionysus

For me, one of the more dispiriting observations on Ireland's situation was late last week. On the Pat Kenny show on RTÉ Radio 1 last Friday Catherine Day, the most senior civil servant in the entire European Commision (who also happens to be Irish), spoke about how our society's reputation has suffered because of the incompetence of our political elite.

Personally, I would add sheer greed, myopia and criminal negligence on the part of, most particularly, the governments which Bertie Ahern presided over for eleven years (and specifically since 2002).

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Pat Kenny's interview with Catherine Day (starts at 4.30; 16.20 on is particularly revealing: "I have to say, though, that the view in other countries is very different and they see Ireland as having caused a massive problem and that they now have to come to the rescue of Ireland which caused this problem and don't forget that other governments have had to go to their parliaments and to their taxpayers to put money into the fund which is providing the funding for Ireland...)

Her comment that. “The perception is that the more prosperous Ireland became, the more arrogant it became, and the less it engaged. It shouldn’t be a fair-weather engagement.” was particularly true for me. I remember Charles McCreevy, when he was European Commissioner, being like an Irish version of Margaret Thatcher on very many occasions defending the parochial interests of the failed Anglo-American economic mé féiner model that Ireland blindly followed and all but gloating at the contental European economies and their moderate rates of growth. This is the same guy who bought the 2002 election by promising all OAPs over 70 medical cards no matter how wealthy they were (fulfilling that particular promise cost the state well over €1billion)

Top civil servant says 'shine' has gone off Ireland in EU (The Irish Times, 2 April 2011)

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The old seanfhocal, 'Caill do chlú agus faigh ar ais é, agus ní hé an rud céanna é' (Lose your reputation to regain it but it is never the same') came to mind on listening to her. I would love if this state were much more European and consciously moved away from the boom-to-bust madness which marks the Anglo-American model. I'm strongly in favour of the metric system and I have no sentimentality about "pints" or other tabloid nonsense. I'd prefer a Scandinavian style economic model - i.e. I'm willing to pay higher taxes to secure more social justice. And I'm strongly supportive of making our society more environmentally progressive. Unlike (it seems) most Irish people I find the low Irish corporation tax undermines other EU economies who charge higher taxes and use the money to support social justice in their respective societies. I find the Irish attitude to corporation tax crudely Thatcherite, and Irish expectations of subsidies from EU countries with higher taxes extraordinarily hypocritical. While we should, as a society, collectively tell the German and French governments, who are insisting upon their countries bondholders being bailed out by Irish taxpayers, to "go fúck themselves", we have enormous double standards ourselves.

My question, though: How can this society rebuild its hugely damaged reputation in the EU?


I think a real start could, and should, be made on prosecuting Ahern, McCreevy, Cowen and company for negligence. Add in Fingleton (Irish Nationwide CEO), Eugene Sheehy (AIB CEO), FitzPatrick (Anglo-Irish Bank Chairman), John Hurley (Central Bank governor), Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) and others. Even Italy, for the love of Jesus, finally has Berlusconi on trial.

Biggins

Dionysus wrote: »

...I think a real start could, and should, be made on prosecuting Ahern, McCreevy, Cowen and company for negligence. Add in Fingleton (Irish Nationwide CEO), Eugene Sheehy (AIB CEO), FitzPatrick (Anglo-Irish Bank Chairman), John Hurley (Central Bank governor), Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) and others. Even Italy, for the love of Jesus, finally has Berlusconi on trial.

That would certainly help - but matters will be allowed drag out till the public becomes yet again complacent (as desired by some deliberately) and tired of this matter trawling onwards.

skyhighflyer

The EU was at least partially to blame for what happened to Ireland. When we joined the euro, France and Germany insisted on artificially low interest rates to prop up their economies which were lagging at the time.

Of course, these low interest rates flooded Ireland with cheap money which was the last thing we needed at the time, and with no control over interest rates there was very little we could do to take money out of the economy (SSIAs anyone?).

The bubble was inevitable, and for Ireland to be isolated now as a 'bad apple' when the problems were caused by EU-wide monetary policy is disingenuous in the extreme.

So frankly, I don't think we need to be ashamed for what happened or worried about preserving our reputation in the EU as a good little statelet.

Day and the others who hold plum EU jobs on Eur200k plus should expect little empathy from ordinary Irish people who have already suffered immensely from a problem that wasn't their making.

southsiderosie

skyhighflyer wrote: »

The EU was at least partially to blame for what happened to Ireland. When we joined the euro, France and Germany insisted on artificially low interest rates to prop up their economies which were lagging at the time.

Of course, these low interest rates flooded Ireland with cheap money which was the last thing we needed at the time, and with no control over interest rates there was very little we could do to take money out of the economy (SSIAs anyone?).

The bubble was inevitable, and for Ireland to be isolated now as a 'bad apple' when the problems were caused by EU-wide monetary policy is disingenuous in the extreme.

So frankly, I don't think we need to be ashamed for what happened or worried about preserving our reputation in the EU as a good little statelet.

Day and the others who hold plum EU jobs on Eur200k plus should expect little empathy from ordinary Irish people who have already suffered immensely from a problem that wasn't their making.

I completely disagree with your take that the bubble was inevitable or that it was the fault of the EU. This attitude is exactly what is driving many of the continental European countries crazy.

Ireland has to protect its reputation because it is completely reliant on outside funds to keep the day-to-day operations of the government running. Maybe if it were economically independent (which would be nearly impossible as it is a small island with a small population) it could give the EU and outside investors the two fingers, but it can't. Small countries have to play nice with others, and the EU is not only Ireland's biggest trading partner, but contributed greatly to the economic development of the last 20 years.

To address the OP, I suppose the reputational question depends on what reputation you want to restore. Would it be the 1990s Celtic Tiger reputation? The 2000s "Lichenstein on the Liffey" reputation?

To take a step bak, was Ireland ever seen as a "good" partner within the EU? I never got the sense that EU membership meant as much to many Irish people as it did to people in countries which were destroyed in WWII or countries like Spain which were emerging from a long dictatorship and saw EU membership as the capstone of the transition to democracy. And I think these differences show in that the Irish tend to see the EU in instrumental terms, whereas people in other countries see the EU in much deeper political and social terms.

Einhard

Dionysus wrote: »

I think a real start could, and should, be made on prosecuting Ahern, McCreevy, Cowen and company for negligence. Add in Fingleton (Irish Nationwide CEO), Eugene Sheehy (AIB CEO), FitzPatrick (Anglo-Irish Bank Chairman), John Hurley (Central Bank governor), Patrick Neary (Financial Regulator) and others. Even Italy, for the love of Jesus, finally has Berlusconi on trial.

I'm not quite sure how prosecuting people based on the breach of non-existant laws is going to bolster our national reputaion. Don't get me wrong, I despise Ahern et al as much as the next person, but we can't just pull laws out of our heads, and apply them retrospectively.

Einhard

southsiderosie wrote: »

I completely disagree with your take that the bubble was inevitable or that it was the fault of the EU. This attitude is exactly what is driving many of the continental European countries crazy.

Ireland has to protect its reputation because it is completely reliant on outside funds to keep the day-to-day operations of the government running. Maybe if it were economically independent (which would be nearly impossible as it is a small island with a small population) it could give the EU and outside investors the two fingers, but it can't. Small countries have to play nice with others, and the EU is not only Ireland's biggest trading partner, but contributed greatly to the economic development of the last 20 years.

The vast portion of responsibility belongs squarely to the Irish, and not just successive governments, but the people. However, the ECB does, I think, have to bear some responsibility. It plays an important role in the regulation of the monetary union and, AFAIK, made no attempt to rein in Irish spending, or even to issue words of caution. I don't think therefore, that the ECB can completely wash its hands of responsibility in the matter. And nor, to be frank, can the large European banks. As I say though, that's not to take away from the role we ourselves played in this crisis.

ilovesleep

Isn't this a european banking problem?
Ireland messed up too with a lazy finiancial regulator and a government that took advantage of the euro and encouraged a property boom.

Did european banks lend to each other before joining the euro? If so, Im guessing they would have had high interest rates. What made them drop them.

Wasn't there something in the lisbon treaty that no state should let their banks fail? Ireland saved them.

ilovesleep

@Einhard
How did iceland prosecute their ex prime minister with criminal negligence in the running of their country? They must have been very well prepared with such a law written into their statute.

Again @ Einhard
Was it our responsibilty to run the country and to keep a healthy economy? Is each and every single one of the electorate an economist?

_Cato_

southsiderosie wrote: »

I completely disagree with your take that the bubble was inevitable or that it was the fault of the EU. This attitude is exactly what is driving many of the continental European countries crazy.

Ireland has to protect its reputation because it is completely reliant on outside funds to keep the day-to-day operations of the government running. Maybe if it were economically independent (which would be nearly impossible as it is a small island with a small population) it could give the EU and outside investors the two fingers, but it can't. Small countries have to play nice with others, and the EU is not only Ireland's biggest trading partner, but contributed greatly to the economic development of the last 20 years.

To address the OP, I suppose the reputational question depends on what reputation you want to restore. Would it be the 1990s Celtic Tiger reputation? The 2000s "Lichenstein on the Liffey" reputation?

To take a step bak, was Ireland ever seen as a "good" partner within the EU? I never got the sense that EU membership meant as much to many Irish people as it did to people in countries which were destroyed in WWII or countries like Spain which were emerging from a long dictatorship and saw EU membership as the capstone of the transition to democracy. And I think these differences show in that the Irish tend to see the EU in instrumental terms, whereas people in other countries see the EU in much deeper political and social terms.

I respect your opinion completely - but I think it's narrow-minded to accept the E.U by default. I'm eager to ask why we need funds from the E.U to keep the operations of the government running. Would this be in the form of borrowing? A habit we indulged ourselves in and that has brought us to the edge of ruin?

We no longer control our own currency - that's a dangerous situation from the off-set. Particularly when you place that control in the power of an off-shore totalitarian union of superstates much larger and influential on the world stage than us. It suited Germany and France to play with the rates as their economies had become sluggish - it wasn't for us. I don't think we have anything to be embarrassed about as a people, besides the inept politicians we elected falling short, we as a people have done nothing wrong, no matter how many of us tend to blame ourselves. It seems like a normality to proclaim that "we all partied".

It's human nature to try and better yourself in this life - any other people in any other nation given the cards we were dealt would have done the same thing. If anyone is to blame, it's the legislators and bureaucrats for creating the playing field in the first place. They made a game, enforced it's rules and now blame the participants for taking part? We're so gullible that we actually believe it.

People have become so disenchanted with reality that they can't see a spade is a spade. Fine Gael and Labour were voted in, in a will to "fix" the current system instead of "total change in politics and economic policies". We will default, that's inevitable. It's just a case of us holding out until our good old friends in the old E.U have reached a place were our fall won't cause a contagion. When they've built a large enough wall around London, Paris and Berlin, we'll be told to start procedures for default.

I'm sorry if I don't buy into the conventional Love Europe trend. I don't believe our demise should accommodate anyone else. I'll remain skeptical to see how things play out. But I know that it will take more than the current establishments vision of Ireland to bring us forward.

southsiderosie

_Cato_ wrote: »

I respect your opinion completely - but I think it's narrow-minded to accept the E.U by default. I'm eager to ask why we need funds from the E.U to keep the operations of the government running. Would this be in the form of borrowing? A habit we indulged ourselves in and that has brought us to the edge of ruin?

Because the government spends more than it takes in. It needs to cut spending and raise revenue if it doesn't want to have to borrow from abroad. And its reputation is so bad that the EU/IMF are the only ones left who are willing to fund the government.

_Cato_ wrote: »

We no longer control our own currency - that's a dangerous situation from the off-set. Particularly when you place that control in the power of an off-shore totalitarian union of superstates much larger and influential on the world stage than us. It suited Germany and France to play with the rates as their economies had become sluggish - it wasn't for us. I don't think we have anything to be embarrassed about as a people, besides the inept politicians we elected falling short, we as a people have done nothing wrong, no matter how many of us tend to blame ourselves. It seems like a normality to proclaim that "we all partied".

The issue is, people in continental Europe were warning about the Irish government's lax regulatory policies a long time ago. And internal voices who raised questions about government policy and the boom were basically told to go hang themselves. And this government was re-elected multiple times. In a democracy, citizens pay for the sins of their democratically-elected leaders. So sure it sucks if you didn't "party" so to speak, but the behavior of the government was legitimized by voters in free and fair elections.

I am not a fan of the EU bureaucracy, and clearly the ECB rates were targeted at the more sluggish economies, but the Irish government had fiscal tools at its disposal to cool the economy and chose not to use them.

It is not inherently dangerous to lack control over your own currency - the fact that not every euro-zone country is imploding right now is proof of that. What is dangerous is to lack self-control when it comes to government spending when you don't control your own currency because your only recourse when things go bad is to cut spending and/or raise taxes.

_Cato_ wrote: »

I It's human nature to try and better yourself in this life - any other people in any other nation given the cards we were dealt would have done the same thing. If anyone is to blame, it's the legislators and bureaucrats for creating the playing field in the first place. They made a game, enforced it's rules and now blame the participants for taking part? We're so gullible that we actually believe it.

Those legislators (assuming you are talking about Irish legislators) were not beamed in from Mars - they were elected...multiple times. And, again, not every eurozone is facing the kind of crisis that Ireland faces.

And if you are talking about EU legislators and bureaucrats - nobody MADE Ireland join the eurozone. But if you join the game, you have to play by the rules - especially if you are a small country. Ireland isn't Germany.

_Cato_ wrote: »

I People have become so disenchanted with reality that they can't see a spade is a spade. Fine Gael and Labour were voted in, in a will to "fix" the current system instead of "total change in politics and economic policies". We will default, that's inevitable. It's just a case of us holding out until our good old friends in the old E.U have reached a place were our fall won't cause a contagion. When they've built a large enough wall around London, Paris and Berlin, we'll be told to start procedures for default.

I do not think default would have been a serious risk if the Irish government had not guaranteed the banks, and this decision had absolutely nothing to do with the EU or the ECB. And of course the EU is worried about contigation - their job is to preserve the integrity of the whole, not its parts. It is not their fault that Ireland's political leaders thought it was more important to protect well-connected banks rather than citizens.

_Cato_ wrote: »

I'm sorry if I don't buy into the conventional Love Europe trend. I don't believe our demise should accommodate anyone else. I'll remain skeptical to see how things play out. But I know that it will take more than the current establishments vision of Ireland to bring us forward.

I don't think the the current establishment has a vision for Ireland. They never did. Which is why, in part, they drove the country over a cliff.

Einhard

ilovesleep wrote: »

@Einhard
How did iceland prosecute their ex prime minister with criminal negligence in the running of their country? They must have been very well prepared with such a law written into their statute.

I don't know. I imagine though, that they didn't make up laws and apply them retrospectively. At least I hope I didn't. I'd rather live in a financially bankrupt state than a legally bankrupt one.

Again @ Einhard
Was it our responsibilty to run the country and to keep a healthy economy? Is each and every single one of the electorate an economist?

It was our responsibility to elect competent representatives. More importantly, it was our responsibility to have realistic expectations of what the state should provide. It's not a massive expectation really. Other European electorates seem to manage it quite well.

Liam Byrne

Einhard wrote: »

The vast portion of responsibility belongs squarely to the Irish, and not just successive governments, but the people.

How did you reach this conclusion, exactly ?

Many, many people did not "buy in" to the greed and rip-off culture.

These people are being deliberately completely ignored by those seeking to falsely justify having everyone foot the bill.

I'll pay my bills, no problem (assuming the Government doesn't impose ludicrous taxes that make it impossible for me to do so) but I should not have to foot others' bills, particularly those who borrowed massive amounts.

And that is the issue there; I have no problem with those responsible having a bad reputation (since that's a consequence of their actions) but I strongly object to Ireland as a whole having a bad reputation because of a minority of irresponsible gamblers.

And THAT is why some people should be tried for treason - bringing the entire country into disrepute.

Unfortunately that won't happen because the actions suited FF's agenda at the time, and they would implicate themselves if this were highlighted.