Luas red line a magnet for undesirables!!

heybaby

Anyone else noticed that the luas red line particularly from heuston station to abbey street stops is a magnet for unaccompanied youths, junkies, winos, fair dodgers and miscreants?

Does anyone know what Luas' policy regarding security staff on their trams is? It wouldnt take a genius to realise that the vast majority of people using the red line will use one of the stops between heuston and abbey street at some point on their journey because most commute to and from the city centre. Why dont Veolia concentrate their security staff and ticket inspectors specifically on this short part of the red line?

Veolia seem to have lots of staff standing around at luas stops yet rarely seem to be doing anything consequently its very easy for undesirables to get onto the trams and do so for free, its such a pity because this line ferries many tourists to the museum and the jameson brewery and when you have anti-sociable behaviour on the luas it really gives a bad impression. Could so easily be resolved if veolia cracked down on it.:(

Judgement Day

Not another Luas Red Line skanger thread - please! :rolleyes:

Here's another - one of many. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59936928

corktina

everytime Ive been on it , it's been overrun with Dubliners.:D

thomasj

Its happening on the green line as well now (although not to that extent)

I boarded at central park yesterday and there was a fair bit if intimidation of passengers and loud music from a bunch of youths. They were kicked off at windy arbour.

shamwari

thomasj wrote: »

They were kicked off at windy arbour.

That's nice. Then again, it's a pity that the scumbags on the red aren't treated with the same vigour as shown to the ruffians on the green.

Lex_Diamonds

How did they clean up the New York subway system? Something involving great monetary cost I imagine.

mgmt

It wouldn't cost much at all. Just common sense is needed. Like not zoning methadone clinics in the city centre.

DWCommuter

Lex_Diamonds wrote: »

How did they clean up the New York subway system? Something involving great monetary cost I imagine.

Charlie Bronson!:D

Actually the film inspired a reaction to prevent what Dublin now needs - A gun, a bullit and no questions asked!

mickydoomsux

Lex_Diamonds wrote: »

How did they clean up the New York subway system? Something involving great monetary cost I imagine.

Transport police that do not mess around.

We desperately need that over here in Dublin at the very least. It's only a matter of time before either a customer or employee of a public transport company is going to be killed or seriously hurt.

It's a free for all out there and it's the decent people who are on the back foot.

mikemac

Another of these threads?

If we employed one of the ex Serbian paratroopers from STT for every thread created, the Luas line would be trouble free by now :cool:

Failing that, pull a few teams from the Traffic Corps and put them on the Luas.
They will be very visible and build up more public support then stopping motorists at checkpoints

Zynks

Lex_Diamonds wrote: »

How did they clean up the New York subway system? Something involving great monetary cost I imagine.

This is how:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels

dermo88

Just plant drugs on all the scummers and send them on a holiday to Singapore with the promise of 1/4 Million Euro on delivery.

Then sell their bodies to medical science after they have been executed.

As Joe Stalin said - "Comrades, we have a problem. No more person, no more problem"

darkman2

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/luas-to-offer-free-online-access-499730.html



I think they would be better off dealing with the security issues then something like this. Who in their right mind would take out a laptop on the red line?

BrianD

Lex_Diamonds wrote: »

How did they clean up the New York subway system? Something involving great monetary cost I imagine.

The clean up of the New York is covered in part in a book called "The Tipping Point". It's really interesting. There was an ingrained behaviours involving fare evasion, begging and vandalism. No controls or action had worked. The book looks at what behaviours actually work and suddenly "tip" from just working to being very successful.

Some of the activities the pursued -

Graffitti: They noticed that the graffitti artists would take 3 days to do their work. First night was whitewashing the area they would paint, second night was the outline and the third night was filling it in with colour.

Solution: On the fourth night the Subway company would repaint the train thus wiping out 3 nights of work by the graffiti artist. They soon got the message and gave up.

Fare Evasion: They used to have a token system and security was so bad that aggressive beggars used to demand the token of passengers which they would then exchange for refund. Passengers didn't want the hassle so just complied. Who cared?

Solution: The Subway police started arresting people for fare evasion. As they were caught they were handcuffed in a big daisy chain in the station where everybody had to walk past them and could be seen. Very quickly people said that ain't going to be me, started to pay up and not giving the token to beggars.

That was the start of how they regained control of the subway. There was of course action that had to be taken on other fronts.

In Ireland we are too soft when it comes policing. The bad guys seem to have more rights than the good guys and exploit this to the max. An ex Garda commented to me recently that Gardai aren't trained enough on "psychological warfare". The scruffs will insist it's their right in a free country to stand on this corner while the Gardai (or security) should put it up them that it's mine too. Eventually the scruff will leave. While it takes time, if the scruffs are being disrupted all the time within the law then even they'll get the message.

AlekSmart

BrianD: Solution: The Subway police started arresting people for fare evasion. As they were caught they were handcuffed in a big daisy chain in the station where everybody had to walk past them and could be seen. Very quickly people said that ain't going to be me, started to pay up and not giving the token to beggars.

Interestingly BrianD,a friend of mine was in Portland Oregon last year and witnessed this policy in a City Centre Commuter Rail Station.

Two Portland Police Officers had 5 individuals cuffed at the Platform exit and were continuing with a ticket-check in the meantime.

My friend,knowing of my own interest in this area,asked the Officer checking her ticket if this was a Train Company or Police activity they were engaged on...

His reply was interesting I felt...

"Ma`m the Law says you gotta have the correct ticket for your journey,I`m a Law Enforcement Officer,so I guess I`m just doin my Job".

There`s a certain wonderful simplicity of thought about this thinking which would not sit easily with the native Jesuitical leanings of Irish attitudes...However I,for one,like it very much !

DWCommuter

I prefer this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of-57Ivfwz8

dermo88

Nice idea Derek, but that would not work in Ireland:

- Use of "excessive force". You mean I have to hand over my wallet and sing "Kumbayah"?
- Impact on the "victims", AKA muggers.

Followed by a heap of paperwork from Health and Safety, Ministry of this, that and the other.

Besides which, I'd hate to see Ireland become that violent. By all means let the gangsters bump each other off, but not on public transport, and not where its in public view.

The Padraig Nally case was divisive and hard enough to deal with. Mention that, and a moderator ends up locking it, or if its allowed persist it descends into a litany of hate that would make a white supremacist blush.

Its easy to discuss options behind a keyboard though. Its far harder to implement them, especially when the Gardai are unarmed, and wish to remain so.

dowlingm

Daisychaining the offenders for all to see would give great sport to a defence brief who would claim humiliation etc.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Daisychaining the offenders for all to see would give great sport to a defence brief who would claim humiliation etc.

They may well get off paying a fine because of the humiliation element here in Ireland but the same humiliation may cost them more if seen by friends/neighbours or even prospective employers. would you employe a fare evader?

Treason

foggy_lad wrote: »

They may well get off paying a fine because of the humiliation element here in Ireland but the same humiliation may cost them more if seen by friends/neighbours or even prospective employers. would you employe a fare evader?

This thread started off about the so-called "undesirables" who frequent the Luas redline. These are a different kettle of people here. They would not be 'humiliated' by being handcuffed at a station. Rather, they would be in their element making a scene and a fuss over it and putting it up to authority.

You also have to factor in the desensitisation of something like handcuffing people. Most people fear being arrested or handcuffed because it has not actually happened to them before. Once that barrier has been passed, that fear of being in that unfamiliar situation would be removed and the actual process of handcuffing/humiliating would have an even lesser detering effect.

And btw, im a fair evader. I was shown by someone else how to evade the fair and I have continued to do so ever since. That "barrier" of fearing the inspectors has been lifted. Similarly, those who regularly shoplift do so because they have crossed the initial fear barrier.

Increasing the fine would be a deterrent. But most of those who evade fairs wouldnt be able to pay the fine back anyway, and many others have been in and out of prison and would probably welcom another stay, if anything.

AlekSmart

Treason wrote: »

You also have to factor in the desensitisation of something like handcuffing people. Most people fear being arrested or handcuffed because it has not actually happened to them before. Once that barrier has been passed, that fear of being in that unfamiliar situation would be removed and the actual process of handcuffing/humiliating would have an even lesser detering effect.

And btw, im a fair evader. I was shown by someone else how to evade the fair and I have continued to do so ever since. That "barrier" of fearing the inspectors has been lifted. Similarly, those who regularly shoplift do so because they have crossed the initial fear barrier.

Increasing the fine would be a deterrent. But most of those who evade fairs wouldnt be able to pay the fine back anyway, and many others have been in and out of prison and would probably welcom another stay, if anything.

Fairs fare Treason,and I think you`re point re desensitization is entirely valid.

I believe the most valuable item the serial fare evader,junkie,petty thief or similar entreprenurial types have is TIME.

Its my belief that during certain hours these folks are always in a HURRY to get someplace or meet someone to do business.

To effectively piss these types off all that is required is to detain them for as long as physically possible without having to pander to their right to a 3 course meal.

Amend whatever legislation is necessary,convert a few 40 Container lorries and use these to transfer the miscreants between processing centres in the most circuitous route possible...ie: The Bridewell to Pierce St via Kiltimagh.

Line the container with mobile phone signal blocking mesh and Bob`s your uncle.

These people do not like being deprived of their daily important walking-around time and better still,if the important folks they were due to meet to "look-after-business" are left waiting it will doubtless result in even more pressure to buy a fcuxkking Ticket for the Luas instead of going off the radar for an entire day......;)

Outside the Box...it`s the only method of thinking left to us now

BrianD

Treason wrote: »

This thread started off about the so-called "undesirables" who frequent the Luas redline. These are a different kettle of people here. They would not be 'humiliated' by being handcuffed at a station. Rather, they would be in their element making a scene and a fuss over it and putting it up to authority.

You also have to factor in the desensitisation of something like handcuffing people. Most people fear being arrested or handcuffed because it has not actually happened to them before. Once that barrier has been passed, that fear of being in that unfamiliar situation would be removed and the actual process of handcuffing/humiliating would have an even lesser detering effect.

And btw, im a fair evader. I was shown by someone else how to evade the fair and I have continued to do so ever since. That "barrier" of fearing the inspectors has been lifted. Similarly, those who regularly shoplift do so because they have crossed the initial fear barrier.

Increasing the fine would be a deterrent. But most of those who evade fairs wouldnt be able to pay the fine back anyway, and many others have been in and out of prison and would probably welcom another stay, if anything.

It was part of the overall strategy in New York - Broken Window Theory. This was one of a number of initiatives that rippled along and eventually led to a tipping point where all the efforts from the NY transit people went from not being effective to achieving the desired result.

I would gather that many of these undesirables are not paying fares (leave aside travel passes for this discussion). Kicking them off for this is a start. Plus while these may not give a toss about being detained or arrested it's still a hassle for them. Means less time being a scruff and if there is high enforcement levels on trams then they'll move on.

dowlingm

Treason wrote: »

im a fair evader. I was shown by someone else how to evade the fair and I have continued to do so ever since.

Assuming you mean "fare" and are not (understandably) avoiding the Smithfield Fair, why?

jill_valentine

Fare evading in itself isn't something that bothers me overmuch. I can't pretend I haven't dodged the fare a couple of times because I'm late for work and the machine refuses to take my change unless I take it out to a nice restaurant and seduce the f*cking thing first. Antisocial behaviour and fare evasion aren't necessarily related.

A "crackdown" on fare evasion in particular would seem to me to be a lazy gesture, something to give the appearance of security and gather up a few fines rather than to tackle the root of the problem. The problem is that drunks and junkies are left free to behave aggressively and antisocially on the Luas in the absence of a security presence - not that they haven't paid for the ticket required for the privilege of doing so. I have my doubts a kind of "Zero Tolerance" policy would be effective in this case, because I think you'd just end up with a load of Students and Xtra Vision employees going to court, and the people actually causing hassle for other passengers throwing it on the pile of stuff they don't give a crap about, with no net benefit to anybody.

I'm no Daily Mail reader or anything, but there is a real problem on this Luas line these days, and I genuinely feel safer walking home sometimes. Twice in the last few days I've had to get off the Luas a few stops short of my destination to avoid hassle from other passengers, and sure you might as well walk the whole way rather than just most of it.

Why is there never, ever, ever a Veolia or STT uniform on Abbey Street?

Jaysoose

dowlingm wrote: »

Daisychaining the offenders for all to see would give great sport to a defence brief who would claim humiliation etc.

I would think that if somebody chooses to ignore the rules in this case and is aware of the consequences then they give up the rights to any legal comback.

TheChrisD

jill_valentine wrote: »

Why is there never, ever, ever a Veolia or STT uniform on Abbey Street?

I wouldn't say "never ever", I've seen them around Abbey St. a few times before, although I will admit it is very patchy coverage considering that both it and Jervis are probably the two busiest stops on the route with the amount of people that go through them every hour.

BrianD

jill_valentine wrote: »

Fare evading in itself isn't something that bothers me overmuch. I can't pretend I haven't dodged the fare a couple of times because I'm late for work and the machine refuses to take my change unless I take it out to a nice restaurant and seduce the f*cking thing first. Antisocial behaviour and fare evasion aren't necessarily related.

A "crackdown" on fare evasion in particular would seem to me to be a lazy gesture, something to give the appearance of security and gather up a few fines rather than to tackle the root of the problem. The problem is that drunks and junkies are left free to behave aggressively and antisocially on the Luas in the absence of a security presence - not that they haven't paid for the ticket required for the privilege of doing so. I have my doubts a kind of "Zero Tolerance" policy would be effective in this case, because I think you'd just end up with a load of Students and Xtra Vision employees going to court, and the people actually causing hassle for other passengers throwing it on the pile of stuff they don't give a crap about, with no net benefit to anybody.

I'm no Daily Mail reader or anything, but there is a real problem on this Luas line these days, and I genuinely feel safer walking home sometimes. Twice in the last few days I've had to get off the Luas a few stops short of my destination to avoid hassle from other passengers, and sure you might as well walk the whole way rather than just most of it.

Why is there never, ever, ever a Veolia or STT uniform on Abbey Street?

I don't agree. If you want zero tolerance you need to start with fare evasion. After all, these chaps are probably travelling for free and if they are removed for fare evasion then you are getting them off the trams. It also reinforces to the general public that there is policing going on.

It's not possible for every tram to be policed every minute of the day but if there is a heavy crack down on the basics then the undesirables will start getting the message. Even they are not that stupid, they don't want to be harassed every hour of the day.

angel01

darkman2 wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/luas-to-offer-free-online-access-499730.html



I think they would be better off dealing with the security issues then something like this. Who in their right mind would take out a laptop on the red line?

You could take out a smartphone

trellheim

And btw, im a fair evader

stopped listening to you round about there. Thanks for keeping the prices high for the rest of us.

Treason

dowlingm wrote: »

Assuming you mean "fare" and are not (understandably) avoiding the Smithfield Fair, why?

Eh, because I save myself hundreds of euro by using the service for free.

trellheim

STT are in and around Abbey and Jervis all the time. However a slightly higher visibility of orange jackets and black stabvests seems to coincide with threads like this being at the top of this forum. ;)

My desk where I work has full visibility of jervis LUAs stop, and credit due it has been cleaned up a fair bit these last 6 months. ( the luas not my desk )

dowlingm

Treason wrote: »

Eh, because I save myself hundreds of euro by using the service for free.

What else do you steal? Surely you don't limit your frugality to public transport. However, given your username there's a slight smell of troll...

RichieD

Going to have to start taking the Luas myself for work.

Obviously its alright in the morning, what is it like at 6 in the evening?

jill_valentine

6 in the evening should be alright. 7 onwards though can get annoying.

TheChrisD wrote: »

I wouldn't say "never ever", I've seen them around Abbey St. a few times before, although I will admit it is very patchy coverage considering that both it and Jervis are probably the two busiest stops on the route with the amount of people that go through them every hour.

The two busiest, and the two that I have the most problems with at night. I've seen people mugged at both. That alleyway beside the Abbey stop is notorious, and the presence of a load of junkies begging at the stop is now just taken for granted at just about any time of day other than early morning.

I saw a knock down/ drag out fight after a mugging at the Jervis one a few days ago - and I'd only gotten off at Jervis in the first place because a load of drunks were giving me hassle.

credit due it has been cleaned up a fair bit these last 6 months. ( the luas not my desk )

bk

It seems to me that the recent anti-begging laws has worked very effectively in moving people away from ATM's etc.

It would seem that similar laws, in-conjunction with a transport police service could easily solve most of the problems on and around public transport.

shamwari

I got a call from a mate today who tells me he suspects that a significant garda operation took place today around lunch time. He said that there was a large number of Gardai in and around the Abbey St / Marlboro St / Boardwalk area at that time, many were checking / searching the track-suited / half stoned elements who were wandering around. A senior Garda (complete with gold braided cap and a multitude of stripes) seemed to be directing proceedings, and plain closed Gardai were searching people in a few other spots. He said that only "normal" people were in or around the Luas stop in Abbey St at rush hour. Hopefully this is the beginning of the much-needed crackdown on the blatant anti-socialism that obtains around there

foggy_lad

shamwari wrote: »

I got a call from a mate today who tells me he suspects that a significant garda operation took place today around lunch time. He said that there was a large number of Gardai in and around the Abbey St / Marlboro St / Boardwalk area at that time, many were checking / searching the track-suited / half stoned elements who were wandering around. A senior Garda (complete with gold braided cap and a multitude of stripes) seemed to be directing proceedings, and plain closed Gardai were searching people in a few other spots. He said that only "normal" people were in or around the Luas stop in Abbey St at rush hour. Hopefully this is the beginning of the much-needed crackdown on the blatant anti-socialism that obtains around there

That type of operation is often carried out on dole day and disability pension day. The problem is that having so many guards on the ground today will mean less are available on other days.

sdog60

The reason why theres so much fair evasion and antisocial behaviour is because its not in Veolia s contract. they have a 6% fair evasion in their contract. If they catch people fare evading above this figure they get fined by the RPA. Also unless the rpa pay them to have a zero tollerance on scumbags on the lines they wont bother.. There only concern is their staff onboard the tram.. so as they wont sue them if they get attacked. Hence the thick glass on the drivers cab. They operate the trams. The People that travel on them only get in the way. Thats there attitude

dowlingm

sdog60 - LUAS is RPA's brand. Veolia provide a service to RPA just as the electricity provider does or Alstom does. Who enforces order on trams is also RPA's responsibility, subject to limits in applicable legislation. I have no doubt that if Keolis or someone else took over LUAS operations the drivers would stay behind glass, as they should.

listermint

jill_valentine wrote: »

A "crackdown" on fare evasion in particular would seem to me to be a lazy gesture, something to give the appearance of security and gather up a few fines rather than to tackle the root of the problem. The problem is that drunks and junkies are left free to behave aggressively and antisocially on the Luas in the absence of a security presence - not that they haven't paid for the ticket required for the privilege of doing so. I have my doubts a kind of "Zero Tolerance" policy would be effective in this case, because I think you'd just end up with a load of Students and Xtra Vision employees going to court, and the people actually causing hassle for other passengers throwing it on the pile of stuff they don't give a crap about, with no net benefit to anybody.

Jill,

fare evasion is the root of a bigger picture, the types of people that regular fare evade spend the rest of their day shopliffing, breaking into cars / homes. Causing a nuisance in the city centre, and dare i say it buying or taking drugs.

Do you honestly think these folks walk into the city centre. CAB was very successful at getting the king pins by seizing their assets. Its obvious an outside the box approach is required to qwell the petty crime that goes on in and around the city centre and its major transport arteries. An approach such as hitting heavy on fare evasion will have obvious benefits elsewhere. As stated above these folks dispise having their day interupted, regardless of how much people think they dont care about the law. They hate it more when you take away their daylight hours.

This is exactly the approach required and yes it can pay large dividends both in crime stats and public display of enforcement.

jill_valentine

I'm not averse to a holistic approach to crime prevention. I just think we've all had experience of situations where security/ law enforcement types in this country have tended to focus unduly on soft targets just to look busy.