The digital change-over and TV licences.

whore

I'm wondering what's going to be happening to TV licence rules after analogue terrestrial is phased out. Surely they could only justify charging you if you have some type of box in your house that allows you to receive TV then, like a Sky Box or even a Saorview box. I mean as it stands you are charged if you have a TV that has a tuner in it and as such can watch TV shows that are being broadcast, but when the analogue is phased out you won't be able to watch tv shows without some sort of set top box or built in Saorview.

I mean i can't see them being able to justify charging people for having a tv to play playstation or watch dvd's if they're unable to receive anything that's being broadcast.

John mac

if you have a receiver (including a pc tuner card) you need a licence.

(a playstation is capable of showing tv)

whore

ok forget playstation, a wii then, a wii cannot show tv. say i wanna play my wii on a tv that cannot receive broadcasts from saorview. i only ask because at the moment i don't have a tv in my house because i would only use it for something like the wii, seems like waste of money to pay 15 euro's a month just to play some of them 'social games' with friends when the urge hits every 6 months :P i highly doubt they're going to get into semantics about it though distinguishing between playstations and wii's specifically and just have one general rule for 'consoles'

weeder

John mac wrote: »

if you have a receiver (including a pc tuner card) you need a licence.

(a playstation is capable of showing tv)

not on its own its not, the tuner is a seperate accessory for it.

STB

Most TVs have tuners in them, including IDTVs!

If you want to buy a monitor, buy a monitor.

You dont need a licence for a monitor. Connect a device to watch TV on it, then you need a licence.

Believe it or not the spirit of licensing is not to catch people out, its to stop licence evaders.

MACHEAD

I guess if you can proove that you don't have any device, fixed or mobile on the premises that is cabable of receiving television signals, then you would be exempt from needing a TV licence.

But remember boys and girls these days tv programs are no longer just broadcast over air. Much content is now fed through cables. So if you have a cable entering the premesis from outside, be it fibre, coaxial, or just plain old copper and you have a PC or a laptop in the house, then they have you!

Sam Russell

Wasn't the new Government talking about changing the licence to a levy on all homes irrespective of TV ownership? They were looking at collecting such a levy on a utility bill, like ESB or telephone.

Would be cheaper to collect, and harder to evade. They could implement it quite quickly, as An Post want to ditch the collection, for which they get 5%. The actual cost for, say ESB to collect would be a once-off programming cost.

12 element

MACHEAD wrote: »

I guess if you can proove that you don't have any device, fixed or mobile on the premises that is cabable of receiving television signals, then you would be exempt from needing a TV licence.

But remember boys and girls these days tv programs are no longer just broadcast over air. Much content is now fed through cables. So if you have a cable entering the premesis from outside, be it fibre, coaxial, or just plain old copper and you have a PC or a laptop in the house, then they have you!

But you don't need a license for a PC or a laptop and broadband enters your house using the cables you mentioned, so they don't have you!

whore

Sam Russell wrote: »

Wasn't the new Government talking about changing the licence to a levy on all homes irrespective of TV ownership?

So just another tax then? Because if it's not to on a basis of whether or not you can receive RTÉ then it's just a random tax for absolutely no reason. The equivalent would be being charged car tax when you don't own a car just because it would net the government a lot of money.

Also i genuinely don't have a TV at the moment, haven't for the last year and a half, i'm not trying to evade paying for something i should be paying for, i genuinely wouldn't use a TV for anything other than playing the odd video game...must look into PC monitors with scart connections

John mac

weeder wrote: »

not on its own its not, the tuner is a seperate accessory for it.

yea i know

QuadLeo

whore wrote: »

So just another tax then? Because if it's not to on a basis of whether or not you can receive RTÉ then it's just a random tax for absolutely no reason. The equivalent would be being charged car tax when you don't own a car just because it would net the government a lot of money.

Also i genuinely don't have a TV at the moment, haven't for the last year and a half, i'm not trying to evade paying for something i should be paying for, i genuinely wouldn't use a TV for anything other than playing the odd video game...must look into PC monitors with scart connections

I read in one of the Sunday papers last year that the most likely outcome will be that the licence fee will be added automatically to every household's electricity bill, spread over the year. The logic being that if you have electricity you more than likely have a tv or the capability to watch the content in some way. And then you have to opt out of paying it if you claim you don't have a tv and they come to inspect your property. Makes sense.

whore

That does actually make sense, sure would save money on having to pay the tv licence police :P charging regardless of tv ownership is a terrible idea though

Johnboy1951

As I read it, a TV that was capable of receiving broadcast signal before analogue switch off (and thus requiring a licence), after that switch off, will not require a licence.
Those older TVs could then be used as monitors without a licence requirement.

Of course if you have any other device that is capable of receiving broadcast TV then that would require a licence.

Mike 1972

After ASO takes place It would make sense to update the legal definition of TV set in the legislation to exclude any device which only contains an obsolete tuner.

But Irish TV licensing law is not exactly renowned for making sense.

AFaIK even a 405 only TV set in Ireland still requires a licence -Not sure if a baird 30 line scanner would be covered though (dont think your average licence inspector would have a clue what it was)

Gerry Wicklow

What about watching TV online with a PC or mobile? It's a minefield when you start digging too much.

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

After ASO takes place It would make sense to update the legal definition of TV set in the legislation to exclude any device which only contains an obsolete tuner.

This is the definition from the Broadcasting Act 2009, Part 9

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

My interpretation of the definition would be after ASO a TV with an analogue tuner only would be capable of receiving and exibiting television broadcasting services with an attached external device such as a DTT STB.

vampire of kilmainham

12 element wrote: »

But you don't need a license for a PC or a laptop and broadband enters your house using the cables you mentioned, so they don't have you!

your right there i have that system myself for phone and broadband but i dont have a tv as the one i did have blew so i pegged it in the skip dident bother buying a new one for the crap ya get on it..

vampire of kilmainham

dont forget that if you dont have a tv and own a radio you require a licence for that tooo :eek::eek::eek:

Sam Russell

vampire of kilmainham wrote: »

dont forget that if you dont have a tv and own a radio you require a licence for that tooo :eek::eek::eek:

No you do not. Radio is exempt and has been for a very long time.

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

My interpretation of the definition would be after ASO a TV with an analogue tuner only would be capable of receiving and exibiting television broadcasting services with an attached external device such as a DTT STB.

My interpretation is that (based on the 2009 legislation) an analouge only TV would still require a licence after ASO on two grounds.

Firstly any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services The device is still capable of receiving and exhibiting analouge TV services after 2013. The fact that such services may not exist is entirely besides the point (just like a TV in a part of the country unserved by any terrestrial transmitter right now still requires a licence)

Secondly whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it my reading on that is that anything that can be used as part of a TV receiving system requires a licence which is more worrying as there is the potential to take the interpretation to some pretty ludicrous extremes.

It really is a very badly worded piece of legislation.

whore

whore wrote: »

So just another tax then? Because if it's not to on a basis of whether or not you can receive RTÉ then it's just a random tax for absolutely no reason. The equivalent would be being charged car tax when you don't own a car just because it would net the government a lot of money.

Pretty much. Sounded to me like it was being reworked to be a "content licence" - therefore even if you watch DVDs or play games you'd still need a licence. That could theoretically even mean smartphones or PCs.

Mike 1972

Karsini wrote: »

Pretty much. Sounded to me like it was being reworked to be a "content licence" - therefore even if you watch DVDs or play games you'd still need a licence. That could theoretically even mean smartphones or PCs.

If theyre going to venture down that road it would be more honest (and less administratively cumbersome) to just scrap the TV licence and replace it with a poll tax.

Johnboy1951

Mike 1972 wrote: »

After ASO takes place It would make sense to update the legal definition of TV set in the legislation to exclude any device which only contains an obsolete tuner.

But Irish TV licensing law is not exactly renowned for making sense.

AFaIK even a 405 only TV set in Ireland still requires a licence -Not sure if a baird 30 line scanner would be covered though (dont think your average licence inspector would have a clue what it was)

I would have to re-read the current wording to be sure ..... but I thought the device had to be capable of receiving broadcast signals .... and there will be no such signals in Europe after end of 2012.

Although I suppose someone might claim that it is still capable of receiving them, even though they do not exist ......

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

My interpretation is that (based on the 2009 legislation) an analouge only TV would still require a licence after ASO on two grounds.

We both agree on that then.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

It really is a very badly worded piece of legislation.

I think it's well worded, one sentence and it covers many different setups.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would have to re-read the current wording to be sure ..... but I thought the device had to be capable of receiving broadcast signals .... and there will be no such signals in Europe after end of 2012.

Although I suppose someone might claim that it is still capable of receiving them, even though they do not exist ......

This line from the act "whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it" covers the receiving part, external DTT STB or similar device would provide a suitable signal to the analogue TV.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

This line from the act "whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it" covers the receiving part, external DTT STB or similar device would provide a suitable signal to the analogue TV.

If the wording was interpreted as you indicate, then a monitor with no tuner would also require a licence, which IIUC, is not the case.

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception

Is a device with a tuner that would be capable of receiving a type of signal that no longer exists, still capable?
It would require a legal interpretation, but I would suggest no it is not capable ...... and thus does not require a licence. A simple test would be to purchase such a device ..... does it fulfil its 'suitable for purpose' test?

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If the wording was interpreted as you indicate, then a monitor with no tuner would also require a licence, which IIUC, is not the case.

No, the way I interpret it is if the monitor has no external device attched such as a tuner card or STB etc. then it doesn't require a licence.

Once the monitor is used to view broadcast TV then it requires a TV licence.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Is a device with a tuner that would be capable of receiving a type of signal that no longer exists, still capable?
It would require a legal interpretation, but I would suggest no it is not capable ...... and thus does not require a licence. A simple test would be to purchase such a device ..... does it fulfil its 'suitable for purpose' test?

If you attach an external tuner such as a DTT STB, to an analogue TV after ASO to view broadcast TV then it is "capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception". If its not used this way and you can prove the TV is not used to watch broadcast TV with an attached STB or other device in court there should be no requirement to have a TV Licence, unless of course you have any other device for watching TV on the premises.

At the end of the day this only my interpretation of that particular definition and the courts are the final arbiter. After ASO day in Oct 2012 how many households will cease watching TV completely? If you continue to watch TV by whatever means after that day a TV licence will be required.

In my case I will be watching after ASO and will have a TV licence.

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

If you continue to watch TV by whatever means after that day a TV licence will be required.

Nope

If you continue to have a TV after that day a TV licence will be required.

Which is not necessarily the same thing.

Johnboy1951

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Nope

If you continue to have a TV after that day a TV licence will be required.

Which is not necessarily the same thing.

True ....... but the question remains ........ will a TV with an analogue tuner (and no external digital tuner attached) be a 'TV' for the purposes of the act? EDIT: After ASO of course

I think there is reason to believe not, as it will be incapable of receiving any broadcast TV signals.

The Cush

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

True ....... but the question remains ........ is a TV with an analogue tuner (and no external digital tuner attached) a 'TV' for the purposes of the act?

After ASO I would say not because it would not be capable of receiving or displaying broadcast TV without an external tuner attached.

If there is no other device on the premises capable of receiving or displaying broadcast TV after ASO a TV licence should not be required.

The TV Licence Inspector/courts should be able to clarify the position after ASO.

I wonder if this situation has cropped up in the DSO'd regions of our neighbouring island?

whore

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

True ....... but the question remains ........ is a TV with an analogue tuner (and no external digital tuner attached) a 'TV' for the purposes of the act?

I think there is reason to believe not, as it will be incapable of receiving any broadcast TV signals.

You summed up what i wanted to ask in a way i couldn't :P

I really don't see them being able to justify charging for a service you can't avail of, the same is true of the changing it to a mandatory tax. I mean isn't their whole platform on cutting education grants and paying fees that they don't think people should have to pay (through taxes) for other peoples children to go to college. Why should i pay for other people to watch TV?

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

I wonder if this situation has cropped up in the
DSO'd regions of our neighbouring island?

UK law on TV licencing works very differently to thaat in the Republic of Ireland.

Irish law is based on possesion but UK law is based on use so if one can prove they are not using the TV for recieving broadcasts they dont need to pay the licence.

An analouge only set post-ASO without any external tuners is obviously not going to be used for recieving broadcasts.

There was a court ruling years ago which determined that a museum which had a display of 405 only sets didnt need a TV licence.

Johnboy1951

Mike 1972 wrote: »

UK law on TV licencing works very differently to thaat in the Republic of Ireland.

Irish law is based on possesion but UK law is based on use so if one can prove they are not using the TV for recieving broadcasts they dont need to pay the licence.

An analouge only set post-ASO without any external tuners is obviously not going to be used for recieving broadcasts.

There was a court ruling years ago which determined that a museum which had a display of 405 only sets didnt need a TV licence.

That is good to know ..... it may be a precedent, if not overtaken by new law.

Sam Russell

Mike 1972 wrote: »

UK law on TV licencing works very differently to thaat in the Republic of Ireland.

Irish law is based on possesion but UK law is based on use so if one can prove they are not using the TV for recieving broadcasts they dont need to pay the licence.

An analouge only set post-ASO without any external tuners is obviously not going to be used for recieving broadcasts.

There was a court ruling years ago which determined that a museum which had a display of 405 only sets didnt need a TV licence.

That was always the case. That is hy they used detector vans in the UK, the set had to be being used to be caught. Here it was only possession.

The same difference applied to rates - in the UK the premises had to have furniture, here it just to have a roof. SIZE=2][I]Presumable some people did not have furniture![/I][/SIZE

Mike 1972

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That is good to know ..... it may be a precedent, if not overtaken by new law.

Just to reiterate in case of any doubt this happened in the UK not Ireland.

[OT]Re: "Furniture" maybe the policy was not lo levy rates on unoccupied houses ?[/OT]

mcwhirter

Sam Russell wrote: »

That was always the case. That is hy they used detector vans in the UK, the set had to be being used to be caught. Here it was only possession.

The same difference applied to rates - in the UK the premises had to have furniture, here it just to have a roof. SIZE=2][I]Presumable some people did not have furniture![/I][/SIZE

I'm sure detector vans are a myth.

Peter Rhea

mcwhirter wrote: »

I'm sure detector vans are a myth.

No they aren't.

mcwhirter

Peter Rhea wrote: »

No they aren't.

Okay, I just have never seen one here or in UK. I also don't know anyone who has ever seen one.

I'd say more people have seen a UFO than one of these vans.

danjo-xx

I read somewhere last week someone saying that they may have to consider scrapping the licencing system alltogether and replacing it with some form of tax at (p.o.s.) I think.

The Cush

danjo-xx wrote: »

I read somewhere last week someone saying that they may have to consider scrapping the licencing system alltogether and replacing it with some form of tax at (p.o.s.) I think.

Household-based Public Broadcasting Charge - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056230314

winston_1

I've seen a detector van twice in the UK. The first time was on active service in a nearby street. There was lots of gear inside plus Wolsey Colour King aerials on the roof. I'm positive it was active.
The second time was during my previous employment at the BBC. At TVC a detector van was driving in a circle round a portable TV running off a car battery. I did not speak to them but I'm sure they were testing the van's capobilities.

lawhec

As I understand it, TV detection vans and/or devices worked by picking up the line frequency of CRT televisions, which is around 15.625kHz for 625 line sets and just above 10kHz for 405 line TV's. Flat screen displays like plasma or LCDs don't give off these line frequencies, so cannot be detected in this way.

winston_1

50 years ago yes, but technology has moved on. For a long time now they have been able to tell what channel you are watching so I guess they are detecting local oscillator radiation from the TV (or video). Modern TV's are much better screened in this respect which is necessary with adjacent channels on cable systems etc.
I really don't know what technology they use now, but I would imagine large screen plasmas and LCD's throw out a lot of electronic hash that can be detected. Hand held detectors are now in use.
I have a licence (though the principle irks me) so I don't have to worry.

Mike 1972

lawhec wrote: »

As I understand it, TV detection vans and/or devices worked by picking up the line frequency of CRT televisions, which is around 15.625kHz for 625 line sets and just above 10kHz for 405 line TV's.

Alternatively they could detect the local oscillator (39.5 MHz above video frequency of channel being viewed*) although it would only work in areas where the bulk of TV viewing was analogue terrestrial.

* In theory it would be possible to use this to specifically pick out those who were watching licence-fee funded channels.

MACHEAD

I've actaully seen two of them up here in the North. A good few years ago now, I was doing the TV course up at Millfield campus, one day they arranged for a group of us to go down town to visit the BBC.

There was one of the detector vans parked outside, they wouldn't let us see inside it, but gave a somewhat exaggerated description of what they can do.

They do pick up the local oscilator frequency from the TV set, thats how they work out what channel was being watched, They told us the osc frequency could be picked up as far as 30 meters away!

The second detector van I didn't actually see first hand as it were, it was on the TV news, it was somewhere in S. Armagh, and it was burnt out! The scenes nowadays of the speed camera vans being burnt out are a little similar.

andywicklow

i have 3 years old bravia '40 inch tv and power earial.i receive rtes tv3 tg4 on analog but when i turn into digital i have all those chanells and more but only sound and message "no video"i'm in the covered area and my tv says that signal strenght is perfect.why i don't receive video.i thought with modern tv there is no need to buy box

The Cush

andywicklow wrote: »

i have 3 years old bravia '40 inch tv and power earial.i receive rtes tv3 tg4 on analog but when i turn into digital i have all those chanells and more but only sound and message "no video"i'm in the covered area and my tv says that signal strenght is perfect.why i don't receive video.i thought with modern tv there is no need to buy box

Welcome to the Boards.

The same post (your first 3 posts here), posted 3 times in 2 different threads isn't necessary

Answered your other 2 posts in the other thread.

icdg

No dragging up old threads.

The Cush - NO backseat moderation

ALL TV Licencing queries discussion etc in the thread below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055794011&page=10