Homosexuality in the Catholic Church

JonJoeDali

We all know that homosexuality goes on, particularly in Western democracies and that the church objects to homosexuality on religious and moral grounds. We're getting to the stage now where one can't openly express opposition to homosexuality for fear of that dreaded "I find your opinions offensive"/"hate speech"/"in this day and age..."/"that's not very respectful"/etc.

Why should Catholics pussy-foot around gay people at the water cooler/over lunch/at social occasions? Now I know lots of people that way inclined and there's no way I would condone their behaviour, but as dignified human persons I respect and love them like any other human being. I believe homosexuality to be a distortion of high level relationships between men (and women too to a certain extent) - collegiality and Platonic Love are the highest form of human relationship in my opinion and homosexuality not only confuses this idealism, it is an affront to it. Often you hear people say that the "Roman Church is full of queers" or some other such nonsense, when in fact what is being observed by these ignorant people is that rare collegiality and comradere that only the very lucky get to experience in their lives. It goes beyond friendship and only when conditions are just right, can these friendships blossom. Seminaries, universities, private clubs are ideal breeding grounds for Platonic Love. Most people however are too busy "getting laid", rearing children or slogging away at their boring jobs - tucked away inside their caves, having never experienced the sunlight.

But when a sexual element enters the love between two men, a problem occurs. It spoils everything and upsets the natural balance and inclinations of high level friendship. Natural law is violated and all kinds of problems emanate. Not least the physical injuries associated with gay "sex", but also the emotional trauma and social damage, both to the individual and their families/friends/society at large.

So, does the church have a problem with homosexuality inside her walls? I would say yes - the temptation is there and always has been. Seminarians today are much more informed about all matters sexual and can negotiate the obstacles that they will inevitably confront in their ministry. The seminaries have needed a good clean-out for years now, and hopefully this apostolic visitation will shine light on some of the darkest secrets that have been lying low these last couple of decades.

Zombrex

JonJoeDali wrote: »

It spoils everything

Maybe you are just doing it wrong?

Plenty of homosexual couples are the epitome of happiness, so much so it often makes me jealous of their relationships. So irrespective of whether Christianity believes it is a sin or not, pretending that a sexual relationship between men ruins everything would seem some what naive.

I'm sure it can ruin things, just like sleeping with your friend can ruin a friendship in a heterosexual relationship. But that is based not on the homosexual nature of the engagement, but on the relationship between the two people in the first place.

JonJoeDali

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm sure it can ruin things, just like sleeping with your friend can ruin a friendship in a heterosexual relationship.

Why is that limited to heterosexuals? AFAIC, a homosexual relationship is either a spoilt Platonic relationship or a self-gratuitous one.

PDN

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Why should Catholics pussy-foot around gay people at the water cooler/over lunch/at social occasions?

Possibly because you and your ilk are constantly wanting others to pussyfoot around you, and then scream about persecution and Christophobia, or go complaining to the United Nations when they don't.

If you can't treat others with dignity and respect then you shouldn't demand that others treat you with dignity and respect.

My wife and I recently found ourselves seated beside a gay couple each evening at our dinner table on a cruise. We had some very pleasant conversations with them. They were aware that we probably didn't share their opinions on sexual morality, and we were aware that they probably didn't share our opinions on religion - but that didn't stop us from all behaving like decent human beings. And, in the end, the way you treat others is more about being decent rather than any 'pussyfooting'. That is something that both Christians and non-Christians would do well to remember.

ronaneire

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Now I know lots of people that way inclined and there's no way I would

What age are you living in?

The Catholic Church IMO in this day should have no such opinion on anybody.

Live and let live....

JonJoeDali

PDN wrote: »

Possibly because you and your ilk are constantly wanting others to pussyfoot around you, and then scream about persecution and Christophobia, or go complaining to the United Nations when they don't.

If you can't treat others with dignity and respect then you shouldn't demand that others treat you with dignity and respect.

My wife and I recently found ourselves seated beside a gay couple each evening at our dinner table on a cruise. We had some very pleasant conversations with them. They were aware that we probably didn't share their opinions on sexual morality, and we were aware that they probably didn't share our opinions on religion - but that didn't stop us from all behaving like decent human beings. And, in the end, the way you treat others is more about being decent rather than any 'pussyfooting'. That is something that both Christians and non-Christians would do well to remember.

Did you miss the part of the OP where I agree with you? On Christophobia: it's becoming more and more prevalent to the extent where anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice, but that's for another thread.

JonJoeDali

ronaneire wrote: »

What age are you living in?

Ah yes, the "in this day and age" argument that I spoke of in my opening paragraph.

ronaneire

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Ah yes, the "in this day and age" argument that I spoke of in my opening paragraph.

It seems like your living in the dark age.

Doctor DooM

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Did you miss the part of the OP where I agree with you? On Christophobia: it's becoming more and more prevalent to the extent where anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice, but that's for another thread.

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Why is that limited to heterosexuals? AFAIC, a homosexual relationship is either a spoilt Platonic relationship or a self-gratuitous one.

Not very respectful.

JonJoeDali

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Not very respectful.

Thanks for that contribution. Very meaningful.

david75

Never understood this. Christians are all about forgiveness supposedly, yet homosexuality is a sin. Well if it's a sin by their lights aren't they supposed to just forgive me?

The blinkered one eyed view of people like the OP is infuriating.

I'm Christian, Your God made me this way. Who are you to tell me he was wrong?

JonJoeDali

david75 wrote: »

Never understood this. Christians are all about forgiveness supposedly, yet homosexuality is a sin. Well if it's a sin by their lights aren't they supposed to just forgive me?

Presumption of God's mercy is also a sin.

david75 wrote: »

The blinkered one eyed view of people like the OP is infuriating.

In what way?

david75 wrote: »

I'm Christian, Your God made me this way. Who are you to tell me he was wrong?

The Catholic position is clear. Of course you know better? Why does it bother you what the church thinks anyway? I suspect it's lingering guilt.

Bloody Nipples

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Thanks for that contribution. Very meaningful.

Well you have just implied that a homosexual relationship is either a destroyed friendship or self-gratuitous (to me that would mean reducing it to the level of masturbation though there is also the potential to argue that all relationships are self-gratifying to some extent).

Would you not consider the possibility that two men or two women could love each other just as much as a heterosexual couple?

And the point has been made above of the hypocrisy of being peeved about not being able to voice your opposition to homosexuality while labelling opposition to Christianity as Christianophobia.

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Presumption of God's mercy is also a sin.

He didn't presume God's mercy, he presumed the mercy of Christians.

And on the topic of Christian attitudes, shouldn't you just turn the other cheek? The whole world knows Christianity's attitude to homosexuality without needing it to be voiced at the water cooler.

david75

Wow. Narrowminded much?

You didn't answer any of my questions and also as the poster above pointed out, I didn't presume God's mercy.

I'm not guilty about anything! I'm having a great time. Your pals in the catholic church can't say the same though really can they? The upcoming census is going to show the Catholic Church in this country has had it's membership decimated and we all know why.

Now try answer my question. Who are YOU to say that God was wrong to make me this way?

explain.

Doctor DooM

david75 wrote: »

Never understood this. Christians are all about forgiveness supposedly, yet homosexuality is a sin. Well if it's a sin by their lights aren't they supposed to just forgive me?

The blinkered one eyed view of people like the OP is infuriating.

I'm Christian, Your God made me this way. Who are you to tell me he was wrong?

Well, loads of things are sins to Christians. In their defence, homosexuality is just a tick box in a list to most Christians, but it depends on the flavour how... specific... some see to be on focusing on one or two individual beliefs. Heterosexual people are plenty capable of sinning if they follow their bodily desires too

JonJoeDali wrote: »

The Catholic position is clear. Of course you know better? Why does it bother you what the church thinks anyway? I suspect it's lingering guilt.

And if someone posted "I suspect you of lingering homosexual tendencies" at the end of every argument you made against it it wouldn't be true either.

The churches position in Ireland has some sway. If I was gay, I would be paying VERY close attention to their opinions on the matter. Sadly, although it is eroding somewhat, the clout of the Roman Catholic church matters to us all.

I'm not going to address your response to my last post as Mr (Ms?) Nipples already has.

Bloody Nipples

Mister Nipples

david75

And guilt about what, exactly?

the good old catholic kind or something even more nefarious? if that's possible?

david75

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Heterosexual people are plenty capable of sinning if they follow their bodily desires too

You're making a fatal error in presuming people are *deciding* to be gay. We don't decide. When exactly did you decide to be straight?

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The churches position in Ireland has some sway. If I was gay, I would be paying VERY close attention to their opinions on the matter. Sadly, although it is eroding somewhat, the clout of the Roman Catholic church matters to us all.

Maybe from where you are but nobody I know of all the people I know from all around the country, of every different age group, is influenced in any way by the Catholic Church or it's 'teachings'. certainly not anymore. A dying, almost dead religion in Ireland and we'll all be better for it once it's gone.

Squirm

I only recently ceased breast feeding my 14 month olf daughter. We co-sleep and I do not leave her in the care of anyone else, unless absolutely necessary. It is a life style choice and it affects no-one but my daughter and I. Yet a surprisingly large number of people, friends and family, seem to take issue with this life style choice and have no problem telling me so. I find this amusing, as what matter to them how I choose to live my life, if it does not hurt them or anyone else.

My point with regard to this matter is that your opinion on another person's choice of life style is irrelevant and shuld be of no interest to them. What an interesting turn of phrase you used "pussy-footing". To me, this means to thread carefully and to avoid confrontation or commiting oneself. Why do you feel you must avoid confrontation with someone, simply because they have chosen a different life style than you have?

I suspect there are many homosexual relationships that are built on friendships and that these friendships will be spoiled, when the realtionship goes sour. The same can be said for many heterosexual relationships. To imply however that gay people are under the dillusion that they love someone, when in fact they are just very good friends, is indeed naive, not to mention offensive. Perhaps family/friends/society at large would not find having a homosexual loved one so difficult if it were not for attitudes such as yours?

I find it interesting that you started a thread in a discussion forum and yet have responded so defensively and, in my opinion, disrespectfully, to the posters that have taken the time to engage with you. For someone that claims to have "experienced the sunlight", it is a surprisingly close minded reaction.

We are indeed getting to a stage where one cannot openly express opposition to homosexuality, in the same way that we have reached a stage where one cannot openly express racist opinions. Finally, I say.

When the day comes that a gay person attempts to 'convert' you, you can pussy-foot around the issue at the water cooler or express openly your disdain, with some justification but, until then, surely your homophobia is a personal issue that you must resolve with yourself and not with your gay associates?

david75

Squirm wrote: »

simply because they have chosen a different life style than you have?

I really must have missed the meeting where that choice is made?

Being gay or straight isn't a decision we make. If we follow this persons premise, it's how God chose to make us. Who are we, or the Catholic Church to question that or say it's wrong? And ultimately, what difference does it make?

Doctor DooM

david75 wrote: »

You're making a fatal error in presuming people are *deciding* to be gay. We don't decide. When exactly did you decide to be straight?

No I am not.

Being gay is not a sin. Neither is being straight. However, engaging in homosexual acts is. As is sex before marriage.

Both are (the same) biological urge. It's just straight people have the get out of jail free card.

I am not a Christian and disagree with both btw.

david75 wrote: »

Maybe from where you are but nobody I know of all the people I know from all around the country, of every different age group, is influenced in any way by the Catholic Church or it's 'teachings'. certainly not anymore. A dying, almost dead religion in Ireland and we'll all be better for it once it's gone.

Really?


Can gay people marry?

Can you get an abortion if needed?

Can you easily find non Catholic quality schools?

Alot of people consider the Roman Catholic church an irrelivance (including other Christians) but it doesn't change the fact we had to struggle to even get divorce here.

david75

Ok, so if being gay/gay sex is a sin, who do i have to make good with? God or the Catholic church? I believe in God and the God i was raised to believe in didn't exclude people or discriminate against them, how could he? he made them that way, no? I'll happily believe in a God who's first message is about love and whatever form that love takes is ok by him and by me.

I will not whoever believe in a 'Church' that takes a work of fiction like the bible, say it's the 'word of God' but here's what God meant to say, imposing their own interpretations on a fictitious work which was written by a series of zealots, bigots and chauvinists down through the ages.

And the Churches control is all but gone from Government and state bodies. Why it was ever allowed have a say, I'll never understand.

PDN

This thread is a train wreck. Rather then deal with each piece of poor logic, or address each breach of the Charter, I'm going to lock it.

Please remember this is not after Hours.