Feasibility of Offloading Catholic Schools to the State

JonJoeDali

Can the State afford to take over these a la carte schools that the Church no longer wants control over?

All this hullabaloo about Ruairi Quinn being a liberal saviour who's on a mission to create an Modern Irish Utopia is all well and good, but who's going to pay for it all?

What's the alternative school model? The US high school model? UK grammar schools? Or, wait for it... "the Scandinavian model". I guess we're paying more tax than the Scandinavians now, so it'll probably work in Ireland.

Fanny Cradock

This is probably better off in the politics or education forum.

MrPudding

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Can the State afford to take over these a la carte schools that the Church no longer wants control over?

Afford in a financial sense? How much does the church inject into the education system? How much extra money would the state have to find?

MrP

PDN

MrPudding wrote: »

Afford in a financial sense? How much does the church inject into the education system? How much extra money would the state have to find?

MrP

My understanding is that the UK system works out as costing about €1000 per year more for each child as compared to Ireland.

That doesn't sound like too much when you consider that our new Government gave over €5000 for every man, woman, and child in the State to the banks this week. That one little bit of a bail out to bond holders would have funded the change to a UK style education system for the next quarter of a century.

philologos

JonJoeDali wrote: »

Can the State afford to take over these a la carte schools that the Church no longer wants control over?

It would have been able to afford it had it let the RCC give them schools in return for the huge bill as a result of the abuse scandals. However, given that that possibility was removed due to Michael Woods it looks like the State will have to pay a large bulk of it.

JonJoeDali wrote: »

All this hullabaloo about Ruairi Quinn being a liberal saviour who's on a mission to create an Modern Irish Utopia is all well and good, but who's going to pay for it all?

More schools should be secular, but there still will be faith schools of all denominations left.

JonJoeDali wrote: »

What's the alternative school model? The US high school model? UK grammar schools? Or, wait for it... "the Scandinavian model". I guess we're paying more tax than the Scandinavians now, so it'll probably work in Ireland.

1/3 of schools in the UK are faith schools. This might work here.

JimiTime

I think this is good for the RCC. In the UK, the RC schools have top reputations because they don't have to water down their ethos. They are Roman Catholic, and their pupils are Roman Catholic, and for whatever reason (I personally think not being lukewarm with children is of great benefit to them), they seem to have the best results. I know two atheists who got their kids baptised to get into their local RC school. There are lots of schools in the area, but there you go.

I think this move is a blessing for lay catholics with children going forward, and also the RC as a whole. I wish them all the best, and sincerely hope for my childs sake, that the states patronage is coherent and effective. I have serious doubts about this state doing things well though.

Zombrex

JonJoeDali wrote: »

All this hullabaloo about Ruairi Quinn being a liberal saviour who's on a mission to create an Modern Irish Utopia is all well and good, but who's going to pay for it all?

Weren't we already paying for it?

amen

The state currently pays for all schools in Ireland. In terms of public schools such as your local primary, secondary community,vec etc the state pays for all teacher/staff salaries, the buildings, the sites, the day to day costs etc.

The church contributes nothing.

In terms of private fee paying schools the states pays for the teacher salaries.

Either we live in a secular society where religion can be taught after school in religious instruction class according to your own belief or we leave in a truly religious state were all citizens follow the religion of the state including all the rules, beliefs and tennants of that religion.

lmaopml

Yes you are right Wicknight, you were and are - and anybody else who would like to see some kind of choice rolled out with the education system in Ireland.

I am a Catholic and I am firmly 'for' choice...and for the state to roll up their sleeves and address education and where exactly the burden lies on educating our little ones....it's a young state and really there are historical reasons for the status quo, but it's time to start addressing this - even if we are in 'recession' - perhaps it will provide a better platform for parents too.

I have no whim or will to push 'my' choices on others....I think the best ones are those made freely. The ET model sounds good to me as a public school program...

As for 'faith' schools, I have no problem with them being funded equally by the state where the need arises while we find our way? ...with this changeover, ..so long as the curriculum is taught 'in full' - saying a prayer in the morning line up or just before lunch is a 'plus' from my perspective as a parent, but by no means something I would like to push on others...

Donatello

amen wrote: »

The state currently pays for all schools in Ireland. In terms of public schools such as your local primary, secondary community,vec etc the state pays for all teacher/staff salaries, the buildings, the sites, the day to day costs etc.

The church contributes nothing.

In terms of private fee paying schools the states pays for the teacher salaries.

Either we live in a secular society where religion can be taught after school in religious instruction class according to your own belief or we leave in a truly religious state were all citizens follow the religion of the state including all the rules, beliefs and tennants of that religion.

It is not true to say the Church pays nothing. The Church does contribute financially to the schools.

lmaopml

Donatello wrote: »

It is not true to say the Church pays nothing. The Church does contribute financially to the schools.

No the 'Parish' contributes. Most parishes are self funded, it's how it works really, the 'church' as regards our locality is really 'self funded' by it's members who are more active as regards fund raisers etc. etc....It's very community based really....That's the elephant in the room tbh.

The 'Church' is not 'rich' cash wise, despite those who say otherwise, even to pay out various claims etc. the money would come from local parishes and charities who are already on the ground doing work and always have been....It's an odd state we find ourselves in. I think it's just about time that we as a people decide for ourselves along with the state to not rely too heavily on the goodwill of fundraisers etc. etc. in the community and on those parents who are out 'doing' while others just 'don't'...as far as funding our schools...

The state needs to step up here and listen to the various voices and be equitable...

Donatello

lmaopml wrote: »

No the 'Parish' contributes. Most parishes are self funded, it's how it works really, the 'church' as regards our locality is really 'self funded' by it's members who are more active as regards fund raisers etc. etc....It's very community based really....That's the elephant in the room tbh.

The 'Church' is not 'rich' cash wise, despite those who say otherwise, even to pay out various claims etc. the money would come from local parishes and charities who are already on the ground doing work and always have been....It's an odd state we find ourselves in. I think it's just about time that we as a people decide for ourselves along with the state to not rely too heavily on the goodwill of fundraisers etc. etc. in the community and on those parents who are out 'doing' while others just 'don't'...as far as funding our schools...

The state needs to step up here and listen to the various voices and be equitable...

The parish is part of the Church though.

Ghost Buster

Donatello wrote: »

The parish is part of the Church though.

The catholics in the parish are part of the Church
....but not all of the parish are catholics.

Donatello

Ghost Buster wrote: »

The catholics in the parish are part of the Church
....but not all of the parish are catholics.

If you are registered with a parish, that means you are Catholic. It would be a reasonable assumption.

If I moved to Luton, I wouldn't, as a Catholic, sign up with the local Mosque just so I can get my kid at the local Muslim school, would I?

Ghost Buster

Donatello wrote: »

If you are registered with a parish, that means you are Catholic. It would be a reasonable assumption.

If I moved to Luton, I wouldn't, as a Catholic, sign up with the local Mosque just so I can get my kid at the local Muslim school, would I?

I dont get ya? How does one register with a parish? To whom? Do irish catholics register with their parish?
I live in a parish, my kids go to the local Rc school but i have never registered, been asked to register or been given an option to register in the parish and as a 'blow in' nobody knows my religious leanings.
Genuine question.

Zombrex

Donatello wrote: »

It is not true to say the Church pays nothing. The Church does contribute financially to the schools.

and who pays for the Church?

Donatello

Wicknight wrote: »

and who pays for the Church?

The members of the Church. They put their pennies in a basket. They also send money to school with the kids. When we were at Catholic grammar school, we had a capital fee of £50 a year you had to pay. Well the poor kids dinny have to pay it.

georgieporgy

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I dont get ya? How does one register with a parish? To whom? Do irish catholics register with their parish?
I live in a parish, my kids go to the local Rc school but i have never registered, been asked to register or been given an option to register in the parish and as a 'blow in' nobody knows my religious leanings.
Genuine question.

Next time you go to Mass at your parish church, look around the back of the church and you will see a noticeboard. One of the notices will be an invitation to new parishioners to register (if they wish to). When you put your money in the collection basket at mass the proceeds go to a variety of parish activities. if you are in the parish and partake in the life of the parish and contribute towards it either with money or your time, then you are "a parishioner" even if not registered. But if you are just , say, an athiest freeloading on the system, then you are not a parishioner. You are merely using the facilities provided by the other members of the parish.

A little bit like welfare recipients clamoring for higher taxes on the rich.

Donatello

georgieporgy wrote: »

Next time you go to Mass at your parish church, look around the back of the church and you will see a noticeboard. One of the notices will be an invitation to new parishioners to register (if they wish to). When you put your money in the collection basket at mass the proceeds go to a variety of parish activities. if you are in the parish and partake in the life of the parish and contribute towards it either with money or your time, then you are "a parishioner" even if not registered. But if you are just , say, an athiest freeloading on the system, then you are not a parishioner. You are merely using the facilities provided by the other members of the parish.

A little bit like welfare recipients clamoring for higher taxes on the rich.

That's true.

Funny, I was thinking of the current situation (correct me if I am wrong) in Eire.

Most of the schools (not all, but most?) are in RC control. If right was right, they would only be open to parishioners' kids. You'd have to be registered in the parish.

The non-Catholics want to use the schools. But they aren't Catholic. ''You'll have to find an alternative.'' ''But there is no alternative.'' ''Well, you can't be free-loading on our Catholic schools if you're not Catholic. It's not right.''

Have I got it right? Me not being from the State, I don't follow things down there too closely. Just what the Irish Catholic tells me. On their website mind, I don't buy their 'Catholic' paper.

philologos

Donatello wrote: »

Most of the schools (not all, but most?) are in RC control. If right was right, they would only be open to parishioners' kids. You'd have to be registered in the parish.

Which would be dumb. Let me explain why:
92% of primary schools are RCC.
86% of people in 1996 claimed to be RCC.
According to very optimistic figures only 40% go to mass. I can tell you in my area it is probably around 10% for all denominations.

The State needs to reduce this number.

Donatello

Jakkass wrote: »

Which would be dumb. Let me explain why:
92% of primary schools are RCC.
86% of people in 1996 claimed to be RCC.
According to very optimistic figures only 40% go to mass. I can tell you in my area it is probably around 10% for all denominations.

The State needs to reduce this number.

Indeed.

I think, and it has been said before, the whole arrangement has not been good for the Church. the fact is, for a long time, the Catholic schools have been acting as Catholic-in-name-only schools. Of course there are some happy exceptions, but by and large they are crap - teaching 'Catholic-Lite' in a futile attempt to please everybody.

The only fear I have is this: that good Catholic parents would find it difficult to get their kids into any kind of elite 'Catholic' school, leaving good Catholic kids to go to dreadful state schools.

There is a controversy on-going in London at a good Catholic school (see excerpt below). It currently accepts kids belonging to practising Catholics. But the Archbishop of Westminster and his minions wish to turn the school into a diversity school where rich fee-paying parents can send their toffee-nosed kids, irrespective of whether or not they are actually practising Catholics. Thus the good Catholic families will be priced out of this very good school. SO the school will go from a faithful Catholic ethos (call it spiritual elitism if you like) to a financial elitism, where only toffee nosed kids from non-practising and non-Catholic families will gain entry, whilst decent, but less well off practising Catholic families can't afford it.

What must be secured is a good Catholic school everywhere it is desired, but the parents must bow down to the ethos of the school which must be solidly and unapologetically Catholic. If you don't like that, you can send your kids to the state comprehensive.

I don't know how it's gonna turn out, but knowing the Irish, I don't have high hopes for success. We have a proven track record for messing everything up, from the banks and the Church to the housing market, alcoholism, famine, unemployment etc...

Ches applies his razor sharp mind to the [Cardinal Vaughan school] issue and has an interesting piece and Fr Henry says, "what the school asks for is nothing more than what any and every Catholic is supposed to be doing anyway." In short the whole issue is whether the school should accept Catholics from the whole of London who are practicing, going to Mass every Sunday or from a limited but very posh area (see map) around the school who are baptised but not necessarily practicing.

It is an argument between Catholic-Lite: Archbishop Nichols et al and Catholic heavy(ish): the existing parents and governors. The Archbishop considers himself offering a "pastoral approach" and considers the parents to be elitist, at least as far as faith is concerned. The consequence of his actions will be dumbing down on faith requirements for entry but raising sky high the financial requirements for entry, Holland Park, West Kensington are hardly the places the average Sudanese or Iraqi asylum seeker lives, unless they are some one's servant. What the Archbishop wants to do is integrate the Vaughan into the diocesan schools structure and making it a "bog standard Comp". No one would argue the Vaughan is not elitist, it is and it attracts elite Catholic teachers, whether it will continue to do that is doubtful, it also attracts parents who want, despite hardships, want a CATHOLIC education for their children. That is going to end, and as far as Catholicity is concerned Vaughan parents will find the mediocre drive out the good.

As Ches points out all this smacks of New Labour...

Ickle Magoo

PDN wrote: »

My understanding is that the UK system works out as costing about €1000 per year more for each child as compared to Ireland.

And bearing in mind in UK state schools you just turn up with a bag and pencil case; the costs of books, art supplies, swimming, exercise books, folders, readers, dance, music, "parental contributions", etc, etc aren't handed on to the parents, it should cost a good deal less than that.

Donatello

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And bearing in mind in UK state schools you just turn up with a bag and pencil case; the costs of books, art supplies, swimming, exercise books, folders, readers, dance, music, "parental contributions", etc, etc aren't handed on to the parents, it should cost a good deal less than that.

I attended schools overseen by the CCMS in the north. I went to a Catholic primary and grammar.

In the primary, I don't recall my parents paying for books. You literally did turn up with your bag, lunch box and pencil case. In the grammar, there was an annual 'capital fee' of £50 which I suppose covered books and suchlike.

Ickle Magoo

Donatello wrote: »

I attended schools overseen by the CCMS in the north. I went to a Catholic primary and grammar.

In the primary, I don't recall my parents paying for books. You literally did turn up with your bag, lunch box and pencil case. In the grammar, there was an annual 'capital fee' of £50 which I suppose covered books and suchlike.

That's my point - if costs 1K in the UK and they have to cough up the myriad of costs the schools don't manage to palm off to the parents like they do here, it will cost even less.

Ghost Buster

georgieporgy wrote: »

Next time you go to Mass at your parish church, look around the back of the church and you will see a noticeboard. One of the notices will be an invitation to new parishioners to register (if they wish to). When you put your money in the collection basket at mass the proceeds go to a variety of parish activities. if you are in the parish and partake in the life of the parish and contribute towards it either with money or your time, then you are "a parishioner" even if not registered. But if you are just , say, an athiest freeloading on the system, then you are not a parishioner. You are merely using the facilities provided by the other members of the parish.

A little bit like welfare recipients clamoring for higher taxes on the rich.

The only Parish facility I use is the local Catholic ethos but State/tax funded school which I also support in other non church centred ways. So get off your moral high ground and back off on the trolling there please:)
If being 'part of the Parish' has the proviso that one must support and contribute money to the good people who brought us
This
This
or even
this
or heck lets throw in this
then i rather think that not supporting the Church is ultimately for the good of the parish and the country. But Im flakey like that;)

philologos

Ghost Buster wrote: »

then i rather think that not supporting the Church is ultimately for the good of the parish and the country. But Im flakey like that;)

You're missing the point spectacularly. The RCC parish constitutes the RCC church community in that area. Just as the CofI parish constitutes the CofI church community.

If people didn't support their churches there wouldn't be any church communities, if there are no church communities there are no parishes.

Do the logic.

Edit: Using "the Church" is unhelpful in discussions like these. One could interpret that as the RCC, the Christian church as a whole and so on. It's always best to be specific given that there are more churches in the State than the RCC.

Zombrex

Donatello wrote: »

The members of the Church. They put their pennies in a basket.

So the same people will be paying for it under each system.

Not really an issue of whether we can afford it then, since it is the same people either way, just through tax or donations.

Ghost Buster

Jakkass wrote: »

You're missing the point spectacularly. The RCC parish constitutes the RCC church community in that area. Just as the CofI parish constitutes the CofI church community.

If people didn't support their churches there wouldn't be any church communities, if there are no church communities there are no parishes.

Do the logic.

Edit: Using "the Church" is unhelpful in discussions like these. One could interpret that as the RCC, the Christian church as a whole and so on. It's always best to be specific given that there are more churches in the State than the RCC.

The point being made to me by Georgieporgy was that if I dont attend mass of a religion I am not a member of and do not put money in the basket and yet send my child to my local school which though catholic ethos is funded by tax money which I pay then i am a free loader. Funnily enough that was what i was addressing.
But I rather think that if , as you say, people dont support their Churches then there wont be a Church community and so there wont be cap twisting mumbling deferrers turning a blind eye to church abuses.

PDN

Ghost Buster wrote: »

The only Parish facility I use is the local Catholic ethos but State/tax funded school which I also support in other non church centred ways. So get off your moral high ground and back off on the trolling there please:)
If being 'part of the Parish' has the proviso that one must support and contribute money to the good people who brought us
This
This
or even
this
or heck lets throw in this
then i rather think that not supporting the Church is ultimately for the good of the parish and the country. But Im flakey like that;)

Moderator's warning
It is impossible for this Forum to serve its intended purpose (discussion of Christian issues) if posters keep making off-topic references to the child abuse scandals in every thread that refers to the Catholic Church.

Please consider this as your one and only get out of jail free card.

Ghost Buster

PDN wrote: »

Moderator's warning
It is impossible for this Forum to serve its intended purpose (discussion of Christian issues) if posters keep making off-topic references to the child abuse scandals in every thread that refers to the Catholic Church.

Please consider this as your one and only get out of jail free card.

Sorry. I was simply responding to being accused of being a free loader for not attending mass and giving to the RC church. Just gave my reason. I wont go off topic again.


So georgieporgy. Please clarify how as a tax payer whos kids attend a state funded school I am a free loader?

georgieporgy

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Sorry. I was simply responding to being accused of being a free loader for not attending mass and giving to the RC church. Just gave my reason. I wont go off topic again.


So georgieporgy. Please clarify how as a tax payer whos kids attend a state funded school I am a free loader?

Can I first refer you back to post 18. My answer there was to your "genuine question" regarding registering as a member of the parish. As Jakkass has clarified, the parish is a faith community made up of believers. The members of the parish regularly donate to a bunch of causes for the good of the community. This includes building schools and community halls.
Catholics as you know , pay taxes like everybody else. Some of these taxes (like your taxes) go to a general education fund out of which the government pays teachers' salaries.(all teachers). The parish makes a further contribution . this is where the suggestion of free loading comes in for those who choose not to contribute. And I think this is what the Archbishop of Dublin was alluding to when he suggested the State take over full responsibility for providing more schools to accommodate people not happy with catholic (or other religious body) run schools.

Donatello

DUBLIN, Ireland, APRIL 6, 2011 (Zenit.org).- A partnership of Irish Catholic educators is affirming that there are no value-neutral schools, and thus parents must choose what particular ethos and vision they want their children to learn.

[...]

The document asserted: "There is no such thing as a value neutral education.
"All schools, whether established by the state or by one or other voluntary group, necessarily and implicitly espouse a vision of the human person and give expression to a particular ethos by their choices, actions and priorities."
It acknowledged that "some people argue that schools should adopt a neutral stance in relation to religion," inferring that "religious belief is purely a private matter and should have no role in the public sphere of education."
"However, those who would exclude religion from school also espouse their own ethos," the partnership observed. "They impart a worldview, a philosophy of life, just as much as the person of faith."
"Moreover," it added, "they imply an understanding of the nature of religion which is philosophically mistaken and unjustified."

[...]

The document affirmed: "Catholic schools in Ireland are a living expression of a long and varied tradition of education inspired by the life of Christ.
"Such schools emphasize the dignity of the human person as a child of God called to work with other persons in creating an inclusive community in service of the common good; where knowledge is sought and respected while faith is nurtured and challenged."
The partnership outlined a vision for the 3,400 Catholic primary and post-primary schools in the country, including principles such as: "parents are the most important educators of their children" and "home, school and parish work together in support of Catholic education."
"Rooted in an understanding of the human person as a child of God, redeemed by Christ and destined to share in God's own life forever," education "is a lifelong process of human growth and development in response to God's call," the partnership affirmed.
"It begins in the home, continues in the school and matures through involvement with the Christian community in the parish," it explained.
The documents noted that "these three dimensions of home, school and parish must work together if Catholic education is to truly attain its goal of forming mature human persons in the image and likeness of Christ."

Full article and link to bishop's statement:
http://www.zenit.org/article-32243?l=english

JonJoeDali

Thanks for that Donatello. State-run, homogenised education, overseen by Hoi Chi Quinn is doomed to failure.