Can we function without trusting our politicians?

beeftotheheels

This thread has grown out of the thread on our oil and gas.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056222401

The OP believed the line thrown about by some politicians that we had "given away" "hugely valuable" oils and gas rights and would never see any benefit.

In evidence of boards.ie working perfectly posters, including myself, set out that our oil and gas rights were

a. Not necessarily as valuable as some would have us believe as they are risky investments and not producing huge returns for anyone at the moment, and
b. If anyone e.g. Shell strikes it rich we will get 25-40% of their profits in tax.

The OP graciously thanked us and informed us that we had set his mind at rest.

However, the issue this throws us is that it is so easy for us to believe our politicians could have given away valuable rights for nothing, it is also easy for us to trust each other as posters to set the record straight.

Is it a bad thing that we have such a low level of trust in our politicians? I think it is since we elect them as plenipotentiaries for up to five years. Once we elect them we cannot control them, and if we can't trust them this will result in us all living on our nerves for the duration of the government.

Scofflaw wrote: »

...backed up by the Edelman Trust Barometer (here) - we have a very low level of trust in government (20%, down from 28% in 2010).

I don't think it is a bad thing that we will be scrutinizing them more going forward, but I think the absolute lack of trust we seem to have cannot be good for our collective mental health when there is little we can do until the next GE.

What does anyone else think?

Dannyboy83

In my experience, even the most ardent supporters of our political system have thrown in the towel, and some older folks have commented to me that they can never ever remember trust in our politicians and political system at such a low point.

How bad is it? I don't know.
I think a lot of people locally think that the MM affair is the last straw.

The biggest thing that struck me about Moriarty/Lowry is that nobody cares anymore. Nobody is in the least surprised.

The climate is certainly ripening for a messiah I reckon.

beeftotheheels

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In my experience, even the most ardent supporters of our political system have thrown in the towel, and some older folks have commented to me that they can never ever remember trust in our politicians and political system at such a low point.

How bad is it? I don't know.
I think a lot of people locally think that the MM affair is the last straw.

The biggest thing that struck me about Moriarty/Lowry is that nobody cares anymore. Nobody is in the least surprised.

The climate is certainly ripening for a messiah I reckon.

Absent a Messiah, what can we do/ look for to rebuild some level of trust in our political system? I'm not looking for a return to blind faith in our politicians, but the level where we assume nothing of them??? It just has to be wrong.

I think we need criminal prosecutions into corruption. No more settlements by Revenue for tax evasion, criminal prosecutions even if it costs us a little more in the short term.

New laws on white collar crime precluding convicts from ever holding any office again (they can be employees, but not in charge of so much as the petty cash for tea and milk).

Do we need to start taking to the streets demanding accountability by our politicians?

Dannyboy83

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Absent a Messiah, what can we do/ look for to rebuild some level of trust in our political system?

No idea.
We haven't even hit bottom yet.

I think we need criminal prosecutions into corruption. No more settlements by Revenue for tax evasion, criminal prosecutions even if it costs us a little more in the short term.

New laws on white collar crime precluding convicts from ever holding any office again (they can be employees, but not in charge of so much as the petty cash for tea and milk).

These would help immensely, in particular prosecutions.
Doubt it will happen tho.
Criminal law isn't retrospective and that would seem to be the only way we could secure any kind of convictions.

Do we need to start taking to the streets demanding accountability by our politicians?

When the mortgage default tsunami hits, people might take to the streets.
Probably not tho.
Far more likely that the Black economy & emigration will simply blight everything else.

beeftotheheels

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Criminal law isn't retrospective and that would seem to be the only way we could secure any kind of convictions.

It is not, and that is one of my points.

Given the level of settlement Mr Lowry came to with the Revenue Commissioners which he disclosed in the Dáil (penalties and interest way in excess of the tax liability) he has to have settled on the basis of evasion and not avoidance. Evasion is, and always has been, a crime. So he admitted a crime in settling, yet Revenue chose not to send a file to the DPP.

We need to know

a) why they chose not to prosecute? If they had sufficient evidence to force that level of settlement, they must have had sufficient evidence to justify at least sending the file to the DPP.
b) whether it is open to Revenue now to send that file to the DPP, and if not whether the actions of Revenue in settling instead of prosecuting can be reviewed either internally or by an action for judicial review?

The laws are there, they just have not been enforced to date.

I agree that retroactive criminal legislation would breach the constitution (not the mention the laws of natural justice and the European Convention on Human Rights), but we should be seeing evidence of the enforcement of existing laws against our political leaders. Otherwise how is our faith ever to be restored?

To quote from that famous English case ex parte McCarthy "..it is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done."

Skrynesaver

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Far more likely that the Black economy & emigration will simply blight everything else.

Probably the sad truth, though it does point to one underlying reason why we think they think they'll get away with it. If our response to bearing a huge tax burden is to renege on our duties to the state, then why shouldn't greedy feckers start from this position.

A lot of damage has been done to the trust people place in our politicians by the "won it on the horses" nouveaux arseocrockery of the previous administration, and people will probably go on the black for a bit until the PAYE sector is left with an unconscionable burden and take to the streets, again.

Dannyboy83

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I agree that retroactive criminal legislation would breach the constitution (not the mention the laws of natural justice and the European Convention on Human Rights), but we should be seeing evidence of the enforcement of existing laws against our political leaders. Otherwise how is our faith ever to be restored?

Agreed, but this is the dilemma.
Our existing laws are inadequate and as you said, we can't prosecute with retroactive criminal legislation.
We can't even keep Lowry out of the Dail.

These people are probably going to walk away scot free, just like Haughey.

To quote from that famous English case ex parte McCarthy "..it is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done."

Short of some vigilantes ensuring justice is done, I don't see how it's going to happen.
It certainly looks like it is not going to happen through our legal system anyway unfortunately.

beeftotheheels

...one of our politicians is now calling for people power. It is worse than I had thought. Our politicians don't trust our politicians... where will it end???

KeithAFC

No. Just look at the killers and fraudsters we have in both our governments. Adams for starters, people actually vote for a guy who carried the coffin of a guy who killed babies. The less said about the corrupt people in the republics government, the better.