What do you think of downsizing The Irish Times?

monument

What do you think of downsizing The Irish Times to "tabloid" or "compact" size?

Please fill out this survey.

It's for my BA in Journalism, but I will post up the final results along with the graphs etc.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

monument

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are reasons why Berliner is not mentioned in the survey. Some points of information...

For better or for worse, it's not a practical option to print The Irish Times in Berliner. I have been told it would require a replacement printers or substandard costs and waste cutting the papers to size. The current printers are fairly new, there are large costs replacing them and some question if any Irish newspaper will ever buy printers on their own again.

The Guardian's move to Berliner was very costly. Le Monde and other European newspapers have been published in Berliner for a long time now, while the New York Times and other US newspapers in their sizes for historic reasons.

Chips Lovell

El Pais is tabloid, not Berliner.

bogmanfan

I have never understood the tabloid=bad, broadsheet=good mentality. Broadsheet is a pain, unless you're sitting at your kitchen table.
For years I have bought the Herald, as it can be easily read on the bus home. Nothing worse than wrestling with an Irish Times on the bus.

IRE60

Berliner would mean new presses (or massive configuration on the current one) not to mention the pre-press configuration.

Just as an aside; Berliner is thus because a group met in around 1910 to standardise paper dimensions ie A1 A2 A3 A4 A5 etc. At the meeting they 'made' a new size - specifically for newsprint - that was between Tabloid and Broadsheet.

As the meeting was convened in Berlin, the new format was called.....

outandabout

The Irish Times needs a redesign but not necessarily as a tabloid.

It also needs a major overhaul of content. Get rid of Vincent Browne and most of the other columnists except Miriam Lord.

Increase the news and sports contents. Be more imaginative with use of images as the paper has excellent photographers.

monument

Thanks to all who have completed the survey so-far.

bill_lehane

I think the real question may be how much longer it will even be made on paper :-)

rodgered

Went to fill in survey but was gone!

Happy with the times being downsized to be honest! Completely agree on the intrusive adverts in the Indo as mentioned by a previous poster.

monument

rodgered wrote: »

Went to fill in survey but was gone!

Happy with the times being downsized to be honest! Completely agree on the intrusive adverts in the Indo as mentioned by a previous poster.

Sorry for closing it without warning here.

I've opened it again for a few days to get a wider sample if you're interested in filling it out -- https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NQLBZ5B

easychair

bill_lehane wrote: »

I think the real question may be how much longer it will even be made on paper :-)

I think thats the point that is overlooked here,as the size of the paper in the hard copy becomes less and less relevant due to lower and lower sales to the point that it becomes uneconomic.

Up to this point the drawback to reading newspapers online is that the reader has to be at a computer to read them in any way comfortably. With the advent of computer tablets, we are all learning quickly that we can now read newspapers online anywhere. On the bus or the underground, for example. The day of the print media being printed and shuttled around the country in old transit vans is drawing to a close. the shape of the pages is probably the least of their worries right now.

tim_holsters

Berliner is the way to go.

OctavarIan

tim_holsters wrote: »

Berliner is the way to go.

Money spent buying berliner presses would be an atrocious waste. Spend the money instead on hiring some awesome multimedia developers and create a fantastic online presence across multiple devices.

outandabout

Is downsizing the first step towards scrspping the printed version of the paper completely?

The Sunday Tribune went for a smaller format and was out of business a year later.

As a reader, I'd say if it's not broke, don't fix it and I like the present format of the paper.

easychair

OctavarIan wrote: »

Money spent buying berliner presses would be an atrocious waste. Spend the money instead on hiring some awesome multimedia developers and create a fantastic online presence across multiple devices.

I think the penny hasn't dropped with many people yet, who still believe that we will have newsagents in a few years,, who open early in the morning and who get deliveries of daily newspapers in battered transit vans at 6am.

Quite simply, we won't, and newspapers are closing all the time as they don't understand that either. News media is now global, and not local, and only the best will survive in a digital age.

Run_to_da_hills

This subject was also discussed a number of years ago.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52919176

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I'd like to buy the Times but its simply impractical. Impossible to read on a bus and awkward enough at the breakfast table as well.

easychair

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I'd like to buy the Times but its simply impractical. Impossible to read on a bus and awkward enough at the breakfast table as well.

In london, many people now read newspapers on their tablets on buses and tubes. My guess is that trend will continue as the hard copy sales of newspapers will continue to fall. I think the irish times has problems when it comes to long term survival, and appears to have no plan, or strategy, to grow and develop its business. It will be a shame to see it go, but while it remains a local newspaper on the fringes of europe, its decline will increase and lead to its eventual bankruptcy.

In many ways, the Irish times is like Aer Lingus, both small players in a global market, and both seemingly unable to change their comfortable mindset of being a big player in a tiny market. Michel o'leary got it right when he said Aer Lingus was a small local airline with no strategic importance for anyone else, and so it is with the Irish times.

I deplore the fact that the Irish Times is heading for a cliff, and none of the directors of that company seem to realise it, or be able to take action to prevent it, as I think the world will be a less rich place without it.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

easychair

I'n not sure about wifi penetration, but the point is that technology is developing so fast that it has made yesterdays news, in the form of the printed word, obsolete. And with technoogy improving all the time, printed newspapers with yesterdays news are less and less interesting or relevant.

monument

Here's the results of the survey...

http://cianginty.com/2011/09/resizing-the-irish-times-survey-results/

IRE60

In the latest ABC the Irish Independent Broad/Compact** was 35/65 - so the compact is most definitely the preference.

**leaving out the 'bulks' as its the "hand in pocket brigade" that is important there and as well, the compact is the format most used in bulks so distorts the figure if not taken out.

easychair

IRE60 wrote: »

In the latest ABC the Irish Independent Broad/Compact** was 35/65 - so the compact is most definitely the preference.

**leaving out the 'bulks' as its the "hand in pocket brigade" that is important there and as well, the compact is the format most used in bulks so distorts the figure if not taken out.

It may be the preference in the survey, but in reality there is a third preference which is the elephant in the room. Until the Irish Times resolves the issue that hard copy newsprint, in the form of newspapers, is no longer a viable business model. One imagines they can struggle on for a while yet, desperately trying to cut costs here and reduce expenditure there, but their fate is sealed.

IRE60

"is no longer a viable business model"
So they have charitable status? If it's no longer a viable model - where are there newspapers in shops today - are they all loosing money?

easychair

IRE60 wrote: »

"is no longer a viable business model"
So they have charitable status? If it's no longer a viable model - where are there newspapers in shops today - are they all loosing money?

I don't think charitable status has ever prevented a business losing money from going bankrupt.

"...The Irish Times – owned by a trust in the fashion of the Guardian – is losing, it is estimated, at least €1m (£870,000) a month and probably more..."

Above quote from http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/organgrinder/2011/may/16/ireland-print-recession-newspapers

Whether or not the Irish Times is losing money now is relevant, (loosing money conjures up a wonderful picture in my mind!), but not as relevant as the continuing fall is sales of newsprint which will accelerate the losses and ensure bankruptcy in the future, unless the business ( sorry charitable status) can find a way to make customers return to buying newsprint.

jmcc

outandabout wrote: »

Is downsizing the first step towards scrspping the printed version of the paper completely?

No. It is the first step towards dragging it into the 20th Century.

The Sunday Tribune went for a smaller format and was out of business a year later.

It was a zombie for years. It was kept alive by O'Reilly to keep the Irish Times out of the Sundays market.

As a reader, I'd say if it's not broke, don't fix it and I like the present format of the paper.

It is very broken.

The Irish Times should get rid of a lot of the useless windbaggers and concentrate on news. It should totally reorganise its technology section and dump those non-tech windbaggers who have never really had a clue about technology or the business of technology. It has become totally formulaic: some business news, some product pimping, some irrelevant waffle masquerading as opinion, and an article or two from a token techie. There are so many areas that they could tweak ever so slightly to have a good newspaper once again.

Downsizing it would be a good thing but it would take a lot more than that to make people buy it again.

Regards...jmcc

the realpigiron

The Irish Times has become quite stale over recent years, certainly needs an overhaul but is still the best Irish broadsheet daily paper.

the realpigiron

jmcc wrote: »

It was a zombie for years. It was kept alive by O'Reilly to keep the Irish Times out of the Sundays market.


Regards...jmcc

Is there plans afoot for the Irish Times to enter the Sunday market as part of this overhaul?

jmcc

the realpigiron wrote: »

Is there plans afoot for the Irish Times to enter the Sunday market as part of this overhaul?

I don't think so. But the Trib was always a loss-making deterrent rather than a viable newspaper. With the Saturday magazine, there really isn't much of an incentive to enter the Sundays market but this is the Irish Times management making the decisions.

Regards...jmcc

uvox

Just saw this:

THE Irish Times has said it plans to cut its budget by €10m over the next two years with up to 20 voluntary redundancies likely.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/times-seeks-to-save-10m-166379.html#ixzz1WrbOy1jS

Looks like downsizing is under way. Whether it leads to an increase in quality, I somehow doubt it. The paper really seems to have some kind of identity crisis at the moment - perhaps it was the summer season - but the plethora of Una Mullally Sunday Tribune style panels with lists of cool stuff and reports on music festivals really was lo-fi stuff to fill the middle pages with. The rolling out of contrived contrarians like John Waters, and Breda O'Brien looks like desperation to provoke interest than generate open debate.

The technology coverage remains as piss-poor and anecdotal from the liberal arts iPhone using MBAs (Memorandum on Been to America) brigade as ever. I am never quite sure who it was intended for, actually.

Best bit remains the letters page, always good for real insight and a laugh!

jmcc

uvox wrote: »

Looks like downsizing is under way. Whether it leads to an increase in quality, I somehow doubt it.

It depends on where the downsizing is applied. The interesting aspect is that the report states that freelance and casual contributions will be cut back. This will make it somewhat harder for newer entrants to the field to make their name.

The paper really seems to have some kind of identity crisis at the moment - perhaps it was the summer season - but the plethora of Una Mullally Sunday Tribune style panels with lists of cool stuff and reports on music festivals really was lo-fi stuff to fill the middle pages with. The rolling out of contrived contrarians like John Waters, and Breda O'Brien looks like desperation to provoke interest than generate open debate.

Well it still is in the middle of a regime change and unlike Iraq, it has no great natural resources upon which to rely. One of the biggests mistake of Kennedy's regime was losing Myers to the Independent and getting Miriam Lord in return. Now a lot of simpletons wibble on about colour pieces but Myers was a contrarian of the first order and was well able to gain a wide audience. Lord is not.

The technology coverage remains as piss-poor and anecdotal from the liberal arts iPhone using MBAs (Memorandum on Been to America) brigade as ever. I am never quite sure who it was intended for, actually.

It always struck me as being a combined Liberal Arts/Cargo-Cult view of technology. Even the coverage of Steve Jobs was more about the IT's technology journalists than Jobs.

One of the recent Net Results lifestyle pieces had a comment box where online readers could submit comments. It managed to get a grand total of four comments. (Other columnists managed to get pages of comments for their articles.) Now this could mean that few people bothered to comment or that few of the comments were approved or, more worryingly for the Irish Times, very few people bothered to read or comment on the article. And therein lies the problem - a lack of readers.

Very few people in the industry or with a clue about technology give a damn about the Irish Times technology section. Technology reporting is a niche area but as long as it brings in the advertising, then it is worth keeping the section. However one can only hope that with Madam gone such self-indulgent lifestyle guff will be cut back in favour of newer voices and more clueful technology journalism.

After the Computimes pages, the Irish Times technology section managed to lose a major foothold in the Irish technology journalism market. When it went behind a pay wall, it completely lost any relevance that it once enjoyed. That allowed ENN and Siliconrepublic to take over that section of the market.

At the moment, the Irish Times technology section is simplistically formulaic. It has an irrelevant opinion column (Net Results) which is more lifestyle journalism than technology journalism. That could be spiked with no great loss of readership.

It has product pimping (consumer tech and product reviews). That's done better elsewhere but it still might be worth keeping.

It has business of technology coverage. That's a section that really should be developed.

And it has a token techie column from Danny O'Brien of NTK fame.

What is missing is strong editorial quality and direction. Good publications, especially in technology, are part of the landscape of the area they cover. The journalists are regarded as an integral part of the industry. That means that a publication becomes a must-read for the industry. But the Irish Times and the section management never quite achieved that level of technological self-awareness or industry relevance.

Perhaps the rot that occurred in the Irish Times technology section spread to the rest of the Irish Times. It is still possible that it could be repaired but that might take some hard work and hard decisions. If these decisions are not made then the Irish Times will go the same way as the Sunday Tribune.

Best bit remains the letters page, always good for real insight and a laugh!

I wonder if cutting down on freelance and casual contributions will shrink the letters page to a "Tweets" page.

Regards...jmcc

OctavarIan

jmcc wrote: »

It depends on where the downsizing is applied. The interesting aspect is that the report states that freelance and casual contributions will be cut back. This will make it somewhat harder for newer entrants to the field to make their name.

Wahey, that'll mean more quick rehashing of online content.