Athletics/coaching Q&A with thirtyfoot

donothoponpop

We've had a few successful Q&A's with distance runners in the past, now with the time of year, many people will be turning their attention to T&F. Our own thirtyfoot, who has been around these parts for longer than most, has generously agreed to do a Q&A involving athletics, and the coaching of athletics. Feel free to ask any questions below, and he will try to answer them over the next while. Many thanks to thirtyfoot for doing this!

Thirtyfoot is a former athlete and now a coach to mainly sprinters. He is involved in many aspects of the sport and has a strong desire to see the sport move on and develop. He would have opinions on the governance and structure of the sport, and is interested in improving coaching in Ireland (including his own) and is a firm believer that the way forward in our sport is from the bottom up (clubs) and that more focus should be given to making them more vibrant.

PaulieC

I'll jump in with an underarm lob to start off...
why does this country not produce world class sprinters ?

RoyMcC

1. So are you retired from competitive athletics now?
2. You enjoy your coaching. Do you plan to progress to a higher level with this or are you content to work with the lads/lasses at Clonliffe?
3. Will you remain event-specific, sprints & hurdles?

Thank you.

Krusty_Clown

Please tell us a little bit about yourself:
1) How did you get into the sprinting discipline?
2) How did you get into coaching?

Other stuff:
1) How do you spot someone with a talent for shorter faster races?
2) Is sprinting a young man/woman's game or is there a healthy level of competition for those starting later in life
3) For someone who has never been involved in this field of running, who wanted to try and run a fast (from their perspective) 100m, what kind of training regime would you recommend (non-competitive, just to run their fastest possible 100m).

Thanks!

dna_leri

Tf - thanks for the opportunity.

At what age do you think children should start to specialise in a particular event (e.g. mid-long distance v's sprinting) ?
Do you find that abilities change as they develop?
What % of time do you spend on technical/skill development with young sprinters?

How did you learn what you know about sprint coaching, from your own coaches, from formal training, internet, books, DVDs, trial and error? Rough % from each category? Any books, DVDs etc that you recommend?

And just to stir it up, what do you think of o-40s competing in sprint events aka veterans / masters ?

thirtyfoot

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I'll jump in with an underarm lob to start off...
why does this country not produce world class sprinters ?

Right now the only world class athletes we domestically produce are sprinters and walkers. Gillick, Hession, DOR, Loughnane and Heffernan.

Coaching of sprinters here seemed to change in the 80s/90s with the likes of Jim Kilty and Paddy Fay. The legacy of that period is seen in the current crop, one of the pioneering athletes back then, Sean Cahill, is now the top sprint coach in Ireland. Gary Ryan is a coach. Paul McKee is a coach. Others too. Sprinters who broke the mould (as regards what was expected of an Irish athlete) are now keeping it going with the next generation.

However, when the likes of Hession, Gillick and DOR retire there is no certainty that those coming though will get to world class level like those three.

PS I'd regard world class as top 10 in a major global champs.

thirtyfoot

RoyMcC wrote: »

1. So are you retired from competitive athletics now?
2. You enjoy your coaching. Do you plan to progress to a higher level with this or are you content to work with the lads/lasses at Clonliffe?
3. Will you remain event-specific, sprints & hurdles?

Thank you.

1. Yes, am out to pasture, getting fat.
2. I coach athletes from 5 different clubs and they are an eclectic lot!. A measure of progression would be that those athletes progress and develop and keep getting faster. There is a lot of pressure with that as they are ambitious and you as a coach need to match that ambition.
3. Would love to coach a field event like High Jump but it's very complex. I have enough at the moment and still learning the craft. Each athlete brings on new challenges and you see and learn more (as long as you are willing to listen to the athlete).

donothoponpop

I've a few questions, unrelated and all over the place...

1) What changes would you like to see to best improve High Performance structure in Ireland? (assuming change is needed)

2) Do you see any overlap between the current running boom and High Performance? What I mean here, is there any way you can think of that the sheer numbers of "the running boom" (perhaps represented by this forum) could aid High Performance?

3) I'm training a bunch of kids (13-15yrs old) for Community Games in a few months- at the moment we have a field, an auld fella with a whistle (me), and bags of talent. The nearest running club is 15 miles away, so linking up is not an option. One of these girls, in particular, could run for Ireland if she stuck at it. Given those parameters, what's the best way to generally coach them for 400-800m?

thirtyfoot wrote: »

1. Yes, am out to pasture, getting fat.

What's your marathon pb;)

myflipflops

Tingle was a way better username.....


I win the Euro Millions and give you 20 million euro to spend on athletics in Ireland in whatever way you wish.

What do you do with it?

Maars

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the non-track work used to develop a sprinter, for example weight training and plyometric work.

What percentage of training time do you give to this?
Do you back off during indoor/outdoor season?
At what age do you introduce weights work?
For weights do you focus on isolation movements or big compound movements or both?
What kind of reps/percentage of max do you aim for and does this vary with time of year?
If you could have your athletes perform only one exercise in the gym what would it be?
Anything else you'd like to add?


Appreciate your thoughts and experience.

thirtyfoot

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Please tell us a little bit about yourself:
1) How did you get into the sprinting discipline?
2) How did you get into coaching?

Other stuff:
1) How do you spot someone with a talent for shorter faster races?
2) Is sprinting a young man/woman's game or is there a healthy level of competition for those starting later in life
3) For someone who has never been involved in this field of running, who wanted to try and run a fast (from their perspective) 100m, what kind of training regime would you recommend (non-competitive, just to run their fastest possible 100m).

Thanks!

I started running 30 years ago. My first race was cross-country and I won. In the summer I did sprints. This continued (except for the winning of cross races) up to maybe 17 or 18 and then I decided to focus solely on shorter stuff.

I got into coaching by accident. I used train alone. Someone asked could this athlete join me and I said yes. Few months later they knew someone who knew someone who wanted to get back running so they joined. Then another joined who knew someone who knew someone. Each year a few extra seem to join and then before you know it you have a training group. So, its been a fairly organic situation. Always wanted to coach though so was always on the radar. You have to start somewhere and build it up. So you may not have a group at first, it could be just one and then it builds from there.

Other stuff
1 - hard to know, have never had to talent spot. I suppose they will be the faster ones in shorter stuff and may struggle in longer stuff. Though sometimes I'll see young kids on a track or field training doing long stuff and they'll have the cut of a sprinter. Could be their gait or their form but you'll know they should be a sprinter and not a long distance.
2 - there is no real competitive environment for older sprinters like there is for road races so in that sense its a young ones games. However, if you are competitive you can keep going and keep racing the young ones.
3 - this would be a long answer. They would need to follow it like any training program. Build it up over a year at least. Start at getting fit so that could be fartlek - shorter fartlek on grass, tempo. This would move to intervals on the track, intensive tempo etc. They would need to work on acceleration building it up slowly. They would progress onto working on max speed. Speed endurance would be worked in enabling them to maintain their max speed (or close max speed) for as long as possible. Strength would be considered, weights, plyos. All of this done with a focus on technique and form. Thats a short answer but fitting all of those over a year training maybe 4-6 times a week so that would be a typical regime. The downtime and time 'wasted' would be the main difference to longer running. Most times you simply could not head out the door and train. You'd need to get to a track, do a long warmup, do your session with longer recoveries, warm down, go home. So on average a session would take 2 hours excluding your travel time to your training base.

RoyMcC

4. Can you remind us of your thoughts about how the available Irish talent (athletes and coaches) might be better organised in order to maximise overall performance at elite level.
5. Are AAI and their RDOs doing enough to grow the sport of track & field? What, if anything, might they be doing better/differently?
6. The best Irish athletes are doing other sports - true?

Thank you

Brianderunner

I'm a former track sprinter who's aiming for a sub 3 marathon in September. I'd like to do a few track races this summer, 200m/400m without sacrificing the marathon training. Could you recommend a weekly track session/drills i could do that would help paper over the cracks, and double as speed work? Complicated one i know.

thirtyfoot

dna_leri wrote: »

At what age do you think children should start to specialise in a particular event (e.g. mid-long distance v's sprinting) ?
Do you find that abilities change as they develop?
What % of time do you spend on technical/skill development with young sprinters?

I'd say 15-17. But all kids should do speedwork as a younger age. I think if someone attempts to 'get speed' in their late teens it will be very hard. I see some older kids and the speed has been 'bet outta dem' by constant drudge of long stuff. Even if they are going to be middle-long distance they'll need speed.

Abilities do change. Many are late developers. Many clubs are very successfull at underage yet the athletes many not progress as they get older. They are maxed out and heavily training at 17-18. If you are lightly trained, had moderate success at a younger age, have good technique and then increase training appropriately then you will be more likely to improve and progress when you are 17-20 and who's knows maybe stay in the sport.

On technical stuff, its hard to gauge, probably 0% on it explicitly but its always there. Especially when they are tired thats when I find technique is crucial. Remember Gillick. When he ran his Irish record the front on camera made it look like he was out for a stroll as his form was so good. In the Euro final his form went to pot in the last 100m. So, focus on technique as they train I find the best as opposed to specific technique sessions.

dna_leri wrote: »

How did you learn what you know about sprint coaching, from your own coaches, from formal training, internet, books, DVDs, trial and error? Rough % from each category? Any books, DVDs etc that you recommend?

Own coaches 40%
Trial and Error 30%
Formal Training 0%
Other coaches 5-10%
Rest 20-25%

As time goes by I imagine the trial and error % will increase all the time.

Elitetrack.com is good, lots of great articles

dna_leri wrote: »

And just to stir it up, what do you think of o-40s competing in sprint events aka veterans / masters ?

As long as they don't get in the way or waste resources, fine;)

thirtyfoot

donothoponpop wrote: »

1) What changes would you like to see to best improve High Performance structure in Ireland? (assuming change is needed)

Three simple enough points. 1 - Help coaches develop as their athletes develop. Support them so we have dozens and dozens of great coaches who have taken athletes from teens all the way to retirement in their 30's. 2 - look after the young athletes. If talented young athletes at junior to U23 are drifting, have structures in place that look after them and find them a coach or a training group or whatever they need. It doesn't need to be money. 3 - Get a proper competition scene in Ireland where our top athletes can compete against each other regularly.

donothoponpop wrote: »

2) Do you see any overlap between the current running boom and High Performance? What I mean here, is there any way you can think of that the sheer numbers of "the running boom" (perhaps represented by this forum) could aid High Performance?

I don't to be to honest. They are like two different sports.

donothoponpop wrote: »

3) I'm training a bunch of kids (13-15yrs old) for Community Games in a few months- at the moment we have a field, an auld fella with a whistle (me), and bags of talent. The nearest running club is 15 miles away, so linking up is not an option. One of these girls, in particular, could run for Ireland if she stuck at it. Given those parameters, what's the best way to generally coach them for 400-800m?

Not sure as I haven't coached at that age properly so would be reluctant to suggest anything. I would say even maybe meet up with another group, once or twice a month. Get training ideas from them. Don't be afraid of asking for help or getting someone in to help, to give you a starter. You can always stay in touch by email and get them down every so often. Sorry I couldn;t hep anymore on this one.

donothoponpop wrote: »

What's your marathon pb;)

tbc

thirtyfoot

myflipflops wrote: »

I win the Euro Millions and give you 20 million euro to spend on athletics in Ireland in whatever way you wish.

Not sure, maybe the following.

Recruit 5 top coaches globally, paying them €150k a year. Put one in each of the big universities, DCU, UL, UU, UCC, UCG. Give them a 2 year contract. Give them clear goals, x amount of athletes must get PBs, you must win x amount of medals at varisty champs, otherwise they don't get renewed and a new coach is hired. They would be commissioned to recruit athletes to their college and coach them. They would have €50k each to spend on recruiting their own part-time Irish coaches to assist (they would help these coaches to be better coaches). Athletes would go to the college not to get free accomodation but because there is a world class coach there. That would be a €1m a year. I'd invest €10m in the Solidarity Bond and in 10 year that would be worth €14.9m. The program would last for 25 years. We would have a great varsity system with about two generations of athletes who have come through it. We would have had loads of Irish coaches who would have had 25 years exposure to world class coaches where it matters, on the job. Then again probably wouldn't work.

donothoponpop

thirtyfoot wrote: »

I would say even maybe meet up with another group, once or twice a month. Get training ideas from them. Don't be afraid of asking for help or getting someone in to help, to give you a starter. You can always stay in touch by email and get them down every so often. Sorry I couldn;t hep anymore on this one.

Thanks for all your replies. Even this general advice is useful, I hadn't considered linking up once a month, but it will be beneficial for them, and should be do-able. I'll hook them up with Parnell AC, hopefully some of them will go on to compete in AC events, after the Community Games.

thirtyfoot

Maars wrote: »

What percentage of training time do you give to this?
Do you back off during indoor/outdoor season?
At what age do you introduce weights work?
For weights do you focus on isolation movements or big compound movements or both?
What kind of reps/percentage of max do you aim for and does this vary with time of year?
If you could have your athletes perform only one exercise in the gym what would it be?
Anything else you'd like to add?


Appreciate your thoughts and experience.

I get someone else to do our weights, someone I trust and who's philosophy and apporach I agree with, ie, its not about numbers in the gym.

On the questions re weights:

What percentage of training time do you give to this? Of the 6-8 sessions a week, 3 will always be in the gym
Do you back off during indoor/outdoor season? Yes, but not too much as I have made that mistake before. Try to maintain it and just ensure people don't feel tired from weights in the run up to a competition is the way I look at it
At what age do you introduce weights work? Not sure as I haven't gone through too many athletes from mid teens. Have some now that don't do weights so will probably start when 18
For weights do you focus on isolation movements or big compound movements or both? It has a mixture of both with all the big compounds in there. Its has lots of core worked in and the sessions are in a circuit format
What kind of reps/percentage of max do you aim for and does this vary with time of year? Not crazy heavy and reps probably up to 10 but as season approaches this will reduce. Its circuit based so not a case of long recovery and busting out big numbers
If you could have your athletes perform only one exercise in the gym what would it be? Cleans
Anything else you'd like to add? On weights I see it as much an aid to prevent injury. I don't want them to become obsessed with the gym. The focus is the track. Its a tough balance getting gym and track right. Eventually I would hope to do both the gym and track sessions and have full control but that could be a while off yet

thirtyfoot

RoyMcC wrote: »

4. Can you remind us of your thoughts about how the available Irish talent (athletes and coaches) might be better organised in order to maximise overall performance at elite level.

I think we have too many athletes and too many coaches working in an isolated way. We need to get more athletes of similar abilities training together. Now the idea of less clubs that are stronger and have full resources from a coaching perspective would see this happen. That will never work because of the parochial and politicial make-up of the sport here. So it needs to be done in a looser way perhaps. More regular squad sessions. Event coaches taking more ownership and maybe doing things the athletes want as opposed to going through the motions. The net may be cast too wide.

At underage development squads you may have up to 20 kids there for an event. With 1 coach or maybe 2, its impossible to work with them and give them the attention they deserve. Maybe invite only a half dozen and they must bring their coach. They fail to show interest, not turn up etc then the next kid in line gets invited. It becomes an honour to be in the development squad. They also get real benefit as they are getting more one on one. Same at the older squads. Make them worthwhile, meaningfull, smaller. Those are HP things that are currently in place and could be changed slightly to maybe get more benefit.

More support needs to be given to younger athletes (18-22). This is where many get lost, go to college, no coach, no club, they give up. I know a couple in this situation who moved away from home to go to college, had kind of quit the sport as there didn't seem to be anyone to train with. They, by chance, find a training group and a couple of years later they are competing as an international and are running serious times. Some might be surprised they run that fast but in most cases there is history. One was top 5 at national seniors while still in school. He quit next year yet nobody comes near him and asks whats he up to, why has he quit, would he come back. A chance meeting gets him back. There are many athletes like this. Look through schools and underage and you'll see potentially great athletes of the future. Its not just the Mageeans and Englishs we need to protect and nurture. What if Hession wasn't as determined as he is and said feck it I'll give up this running lark aged 18 or 19. Would anyone have gone and try talk him around? Not sure. So, question is there someone in AI who is charged with keeping these kids in the sport. I don't think so, so we need that. A structure that talent spots at 16-18 and then keeps an eye on these athletes and gives them every chance. It doesn't need to be money, could be just the phone number or email of a coach for when they move away to college.

Finally, coaches need to be coached. Coach education is not good yet we have some good coaches. If we stand back and see where we want to be in 10 years and try to build for that. The elastoplast solution wont work and it will take time. Coach the coaches and send them away to their clubs to create centres of excellence over time. Who would coach the coaches would be a problem, thats the key point as they would need to be good.

Those are high level things, you could go on though with many more. These wouldn't cost much as some of the structures are in place. Funny though reading the latest printed issue of Track and Field News. Talks about the challenges faced by America's top athletes when they leave college and the lack of support and access to facilities. We assume Ireland is 3rd world when it comes to athletics but many countries are faced with the same issues. Remember Sweden were the golden children a few years back. Ollson, Kluft, Holm et al. Few injuries, retirement etc and they are strugging a bit as a country. Looking to whats done in other countries may not always work, probably need an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

RoyMcC wrote: »

5. Are AAI and their RDOs doing enough to grow the sport of track & field? What, if anything, might they be doing better/differently?

I think the RDO are excellent. But they are restricted as to what they are doing. A whole review of the system could be undertaken to see are these people being utilised properly and their undoubted skills being maximised. Its unfair to criticise them as it be like expecting a waiter to give Silver Service to those tucking down in the Kylemore Cafe.

RoyMcC wrote: »

6. The best Irish athletes are doing other sports - true?

Impossible to answer. Same in any country. We talk about the effect of GAA in Ireland. Has anyone ever watched NCAA sports. Have they seen the athletes in college football or basketball or even Lacrosse for Gods sake. These are where the best athletes reside in the States and it doesn't stop the US from being pretty good at track. Same anywhere, very few countries have the luxury of picking the top athletes for athletics. Many who are good at other team sports like GAA, Rugby, Soccer wouldn't last it in athletics or rowing or swimming or cycling. They are cruel sports with nowhere to hide and not all are made out for it. Thats why I think many who play other sports and are great athletes wouldn't translate to athletics. There are exceptions of course but by and large you need to be a certain charachter to stick with the non-team sports. Its a different type of toughness.