Apathy towards the game

Mr. CooL ICE

Does anyone feel that there is a serious amount of apathy towards the game since Cata raiding has started?

In my guild, we are having massive problems trying to recruit more players. We have always been a 25-man, over 21s, casual hardcore guild but these days, we are having a hard time getting two 10-man teams any night we raid. Since Cata raiding started, we have only had two 25-man raids and even with these, we barely had enough signups to make it.

Since Cata was released, we had many raiders who healed in WotLK dislike the new healing system and either switched to other roles or just quit the game, and these have been hard to replace. After making an internal guild appeal, we managed to convince a total of two dpsers to switch to healing, but it doesn't cover the 6-7 who no longer heal for us any more.

As an officer, I have been throwing out a recruitment macro every 5-10 mins in stormwind but there are few responses. After one of the bigger guilds on our server disbanded, we were hoping to steal some of their members but only got 2 hunter and a rogue application (hunters are full. rogue passed trial). Considering we need mages badly, we have only had one apply (denied for being 15) since Cata was released which is pretty weird considering mages were everywhere on our server in WotLK.

So, has anyone here had their guild(s) go through similar dire straits recently and if so, how have you managed it?

Dubhdara

I have noticed something quite similar in my own guild.

Personally I had acted as a Healadin for a while early in Wotlk, and then levelled a shammy to be a raid healer later on. And speaking as a healer my biggest issue started to become that I was being pigeon-holed as being only a healer, so that if I wanted to tank or dps that no body else was willing to take over the healing position, even for 1 raid. As a result of this I levelled a hunter to 85 when Cata hit, and still havent levelled either my Paladin or Shammy.
I know from my own guild that I wasnt the only Healer (and I think our Tanks were the same) that felt like this, so we started to ask others in the guild to role a healing class (though to be honest few did).

And while I'm not saying that's what happened in your guild, I do think that good healers (and tanks) get taken for granted, which can be quite frustrating, so Cata offered these people a chance to break the mould and do something different.

I also do think that Cata has caused as you say a lot of apathy, as we have trouble filling raid spots... recently even dps, I think part of this is some people like being lazy... not wanted to work out raid tactics, instead only wanting to be told what to do, while others are just genuinely bored of the game, since it I think it has started to lack originallity, with tactics just being rehashed over and over again.

eyfm5

I would totally agree with both posts. we are not a big guild but we always had a dedicated 12/15 players on every night but since cata we are lucky if we have 2/3 players on nightly. i personally dislike cata dungeons/raids but i do like the new zones. some of the quests are quite enjoyable.

I have played every role and in lk i healed/tanked/dps in all dungeons and raids. are main problem wasnt lack of healers (as we are very lucky to have 2 top healers, we have a few others who, like myself can hold our own but wudnt consider ourselves the best, but our gm is argueably one of the best on the server) it was lack of tanks so more often than not i was tanking. i have to say i like the healing/tanking system since cata its the dps that i dont realy like. havnt played much since cata and havnt even hit 85 yet. iv been busy leveling alts as i feel iv missed out alot since all my chars were high level when cata came out. apart from changes to the guild system and an overhaul of the old zones i dont think cata has been much of an expansion. there is so much aspects to the game now that if u cant play 24/7 u lose alot of ground on everyone else.

Drakar

On guild inviting specifically;
Macroing in cities probably wont end up netting you the kind of players you want, and may end up with your or your alts on /ignore. In the old days (lols) you could keep an eye out for good people in 5mans and invite them, but thats pretty much gone with random dungeons.

You could talk to a smaller guild about them joining you permanently (guildmerge), or consider offering to take some of their players just for raids (eg "you guys got any spare dps for tonight?", this can get messy with dividing equipment though if rules arent clear and fair).

Another option is to have a "fun run" sometime with your guild alts and spam that in a city (ie looking for 4 more people to complete your raid), if any of them are good you could invite them.

witless1

Recruitment is tough at the moment as there seems to be a mentality difference between hard mode guilds and normal/social mode guilds and no happy medium. There is constant recruitment for guilds pushing hard modes in 25 man because you can trial and carry a player and drop them as quick if they are not up to speed. 10 man recruitment is very difficult with a higher barrier in my opinion, particular in hard mode content. One player messing up is a wipe and trials are much more stringent because of that. I think after the pug mentality of WOTLK people don't want the hassle of guilds and being scrutinized, which is ironic when you consider the whole guild mentality that Blizzard has pushed. After extensive recruitment we have reverted back to the core players that served us well in the last expansion, not by choice, simply be people not being up to scratch, people not making the commitment and people expecting to be carried. If a few core players leave the game we are in trouble, the same situation that a lot of stable guilds found themselves in when players rerolled.

With the next raid content patch you should see recruitment become a little easier as the gearing element is taken out of the equation. People can get up to speed very quickly without setting foot in a raid and that gear gap narrows. Right now if we took in a player they would have to be geared for hard mode content or close enough to it that a farm raid or two brings them up to scratch. We did find though that wow-progress is a good place to advertise and having a public WoL account helps players check out the level of the guild. Shouting in trade has very mixed results, I have seen very few competent players recruited out of trade. As suggested above filling slots with pugs might be a way of trialling people and enticing them to come on board.

nix

Ah its great, this is what i said would happen months ago when they decided to make 25/10 mans loot the same and be on the same lockout

TheDoc

nix wrote: »

Ah its great, this is what i said would happen months ago when they decided to make 25/10 mans loot the same and be on the same lockout

I disagree that the problem is with the game or its design choice, in our experience ( me and witless are officers in same guild) its purely down to the player base.

We had one recruit who was worth the effort and unfortunately had to leave for work commitments, anyone else we got was rubbish.

So from our point of view the recruitment issue and slowdown isnt from lack of candidates or something that changed in the game, its simply the level of people looking for guilds, is simpkly not acceptable for a guild like ours progressing through hard modes.

(Although we have recruited a new Italian holy paladin, interesting to see how he gets on )

And as I said so many times before, guilds simply were not prepared and did not plan ahead for Cataclysm, as if they could stroll on uninterupted. We put atleast 5-6 months preplanning into efect making sure we were ready for Cataclysm and our transition was seemless, we had a short hicup with a few players having Drama and leaving but it took us about a week to recover and press on.

This expansion although small enough in its content completely reshaped the game form Wotlk in terms of raiding , playstyles among other things. Most guilds just simply did not prepare

nix

Right but the reason not many are looking for guilds is because they can just pug it, dont you think??

Why feel the need to dedicate specific times, effort into learning 25man tactics etc. when you can just login when you want and jump into a pug group and earn the same loot?

Jimbob 83

I have played all sorts of mmo's and tbh the one thing that struck me in WoW (this is based on my newly 80 rogue in Wotlk on Outland) is the massive gap between being in a random guild and a set 10-25 man guild.

Random guild is full of kids spamming cursewords and high fiving each other for the win and then you try and join a slightly better guild but there is nothing, its the trololololol random guilds or pugging with idiots and never getting past putricide or filling out a 20 page application form giving all sorts of details to join a raiding guild on a trial basis and then to be ignored.

WoW is probably one of the most dumbed down mmo's ever and the orignal to take this route over the harsher mmo's like eve online etc so why all elitism when everyone in the set guild raids already has everything they need and 6000+ gearscore and the same on many alt's, what happens to the people trying to bridge the gap from 4000 ish gearscore to getting into a set raid guild ?:p

Im sorry its just a pet hate of mine, and it's the ultimate catch 22 situation, you are told your gearscore is too low to get into a raid to get the gear like, erm .... ummmm ... yea

TheDoc

nix wrote: »

Right but the reason not many are looking for guilds is because they can just pug it, dont you think??

Why feel the need to dedicate specific times, effort into learning 25man tactics etc. when you can just login when you want and jump into a pug group and earn the same loot?

nah, the content is too hard for pugs imo.

Our server has a very rich history of successful pugs, the best PuG group on the server is still not finished normal modes.

If anything this expansion killed of pug raiding a hefty amount Its still possible of course and will be in time, but there just isnt as much success at this tier of raiding with pugs.

TheDoc

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

I have played all sorts of mmo's and tbh the one thing that struck me in WoW (this is based on my newly 80 rogue in Wotlk on Outland) is the massive gap between being in a random guild and a set 10-25 man guild.

Random guild is full of kids spamming cursewords and high fiving each other for the win and then you try and join a slightly better guild but there is nothing, its the trololololol random guilds or pugging with idiots and never getting past putricide or filling out a 20 page application form giving all sorts of details to join a raiding guild on a trial basis and then to be ignored.

WoW is probably one of the most dumbed down mmo's ever and the orignal to take this route over the harsher mmo's like eve online etc so why all elitism when everyone in the set guild raids already has everything they need and 6000+ gearscore and the same on many alt's, what happens to the people trying to bridge the gap from 4000 ish gearscore to getting into a set raid guild ?:p

Im sorry its just a pet hate of mine, and it's the ultimate catch 22 situation, you are told your gearscore is too low to get into a raid to get the gear like, erm .... ummmm ... yea

I know where your coming from cause I used to be in the same situation.

The solution was getting into some mildly succesful guilds. The initial loot boost was nice and enough to get me into pugs easier next time round.

But your looking for a guild to match yourself.

Gearscore isnt an indicator on ability everoyne knows that, the reason you fill in an application is because you can tell alot about someone and their ability, from an application.

Why they spec'd a certain way, why they gem'd reforged a certain way. When we are looking for recruits we want people that know their class and keep up to date. If we see someone who has some enchants and when asked why says " they were the cheapest" its no use to us and that person isnt getting a trial invite.

I ran some pugs with mild success, until one day was brought into an Ulduar pug mostly comprahmised of a guild. <Army of the hypnotoad>. I was asked to join soon after on my warlock and raided with them through Ulduar and the first two wings of ICC.

They were an average skilled guild with mild success. Soon after was approached to start up an Irish guild <ATT> and here I am.

But I also know what you mean about the ignore thing. I was invited to two relatively high skilled guilds on server 25man ( Indemins and Innvervate) and was on trial, but was not being allocated raid spots, turned up to all the raids until it came a point where I asked when I would be given a crack of the whip. Alts were being brought in ahead of me, after getting a less then satisfactory reply left both guilds on my own accord.

Point is you need to get a guild that matches your actually ability, not your expecations or how good YOU THINK you are, which is a massive problem with most wow players.

The more honest you are withself, the more believeable and acceptable and application will be, get yourself into a midlevel or low level guild and over time move your way up

uncle_sam_ie

TheDoc wrote: »

I know where your coming from cause I used to be in the same situation.

The solution was getting into some mildly succesful guilds. The initial loot boost was nice and enough to get me into pugs easier next time round.

But your looking for a guild to match yourself.

Gearscore isnt an indicator on ability everoyne knows that, the reason you fill in an application is because you can tell alot about someone and their ability, from an application.

Why they spec'd a certain way, why they gem'd reforged a certain way. When we are looking for recruits we want people that know their class and keep up to date. If we see someone who has some enchants and when asked why says " they were the cheapest" its no use to us and that person isnt getting a trial invite.

I ran some pugs with mild success, until one day was brought into an Ulduar pug mostly comprahmised of a guild. <Army of the hypnotoad>. I was asked to join soon after on my warlock and raided with them through Ulduar and the first two wings of ICC.

They were an average skilled guild with mild success. Soon after was approached to start up an Irish guild <ATT> and here I am.

But I also know what you mean about the ignore thing. I was invited to two relatively high skilled guilds on server 25man ( Indemins and Innvervate) and was on trial, but was not being allocated raid spots, turned up to all the raids until it came a point where I asked when I would be given a crack of the whip. Alts were being brought in ahead of me, after getting a less then satisfactory reply left both guilds on my own accord.

Point is you need to get a guild that matches your actually ability, not your expecations or how good YOU THINK you are, which is a massive problem with most wow players.

The more honest you are withself, the more believeable and acceptable and application will be, get yourself into a midlevel or low level guild and over time move your way up

One of my first raiding guilds was called "Light in the Dark" but we were often referred to on the sever as Wipe in the dark. You have to start somewhere.
You guys raid late DOC. I'll keep an eye out to see if your ever looking for a Resto Druid.

witless1

nix wrote: »

Right but the reason not many are looking for guilds is because they can just pug it, dont you think??

Why feel the need to dedicate specific times, effort into learning 25man tactics etc. when you can just login when you want and jump into a pug group and earn the same loot?

No disrespect at all but that's the WOTLK mentality speaking. Well to be more precise it's the ICC pug mentality. Ulduar wasn't puggable when it was relevant (even more so with the hard modes). Heroic ToC wasn't puggable when it was relevant, where as normal ToC was. ICC normal and heroic wasn't puggable by the masses until the buffs started rolling out.

Now there is no inflated buff and we are not running the same instance several times a week to the point the fights are in muscle memory. Pugging is now only possible once you know the tactics and can communicate, gear is largely irrelevant for most bosses. Our alt run downs a number of bosses each week with the latter bosses being purely a gear issue. The only reason the successful and established pugs on our server haven't finished normal modes is the slightly higher gear requirement for end bosses. Nef requires strong healers and decently geared tanks. I'm sure when 4.1 comes out you will see a lot more pugs but being honest hard mode content will not be puggable even with brute force through gear, you can never overcome stupidity. 25 man pugs won't be happening for that very reason, it's hard to guarantee 25 decent/average players, where as in ICC even in heroic mode you could carry a good chunk of the raid. 10 man pugs will be the only option and they will struggle on hard modes without specific comps and a death normally leads to a wipe.

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

filling out a 20 page application form giving all sorts of details to join a raiding guild on a trial basis and then to be ignored.

There are two problems here. One is the application form and the other is the issue of trust, which actually relates to the application process.

Application forms have always been the only real way to learn about the player you are taking in. You can decline a lot on the spot by finding out that they are lying about experience or their class knowledge as the armory tells you so much. Other then that you cannot trial someone without jumping them into a raid. I was asked to trial for a 25 man guild during ICC, at the time I had better progress heroic wise then they did. My "trial" was a chat with the GM and a DPS test on the dummys. Shadow priests were notoriously bad on dummy DPS, way too dependent on raid buffs and I was declined for "low DPS" yet my DPS, on my publicly visible WoL account, put me in the top 3 for their guild. The point is if I had made a formal application I would have linked my WoL account. From that you would see I wasn't lying and you would see I was competent somewhat. A good application form shouldn't be too long, should be rather open ended and ask the right question. If a guild takes you in and ignores you it's most likely a fault of their application form. If I see an applicant who is showing me they have the experience and the skill to match it I won't have any hesitation trusting him and throwing him in at the deep end. A 25 man guild will be much more accommodating this expansion as average players can be carried. The issue of trust is a massive one in 10 man progression guilds, a stable roster and a stable setup for a raid is hard to break into. That's why the application process has to be somewhat stringent to find the player with the right experience and skill that they won't be a hindrance. The pally that TheDoc mentioned was brought in the other night and dropped into Throne of the Four Winds for his first raid. That's a lot of movement and general raid awareness and him dying would have been a wipe, we one shot both bosses. We wouldn't have thrown that Pally into our setup if we didn't trust him and we wouldn't have trusted him if we didn't have a decent application process.

I don't think it's a fault of the new setup and raiding style, WoW has always been like that save for a blip during ICC which encouraged guild hopping and pugging. I was in more guilds in ICC then the three years previous! In TBC unless you were in a stable guild you would never have seen an end boss when it was relevant and this expansion will be the exact same.