your clubs c.s.s

pinseeker

just wondering guys what is normal css at your club.as have stated before last year was first year joining club.css was mostly 38 with some 39.was distance membership so moved just over month ago to get more golf in.summer 9holes easier to do.css is also 38 and weekday opens seems to be 39.main reason for asking is whilst talking with playing partner after round we were saying how it seems bit harsh.what i mean is everyone has handicap,shooting to it is a good days work and happy you should feel.now if your cat1 and shoot your 36 points then that is good round in any ones book,be it 1,2,3 or4 over.lets say if off 10 and shoot 10 over and have your 36 yet css is 39.you walk off having played to handicap that is there for you to play to,which you have just done yet its deemed not good enough and .1comes your way.sorry i know its bit of a rant and its just way things are but why bother having handicap if shooting to it is not enough.:rolleyes:

does it do yer heads in at times to:)

dvemail

Can barely read what you said but in my club the C.S.S normally 36 and sometimes 35pts.

Mr. Larson

My eyes hurt...:p

Usually 37pts at mine. Often times it can be 39. It doesn't stop people getting 48pts on occastion, and usually it takes 45 or so to win, so I guess you can't argue.

L.O.F.T

pinseeker wrote: »

just wondering guys what is normal css at your club.as have stated before last year was first year joining club.css was mostly 38 with some 39.was distance membership so moved just over month ago to get more golf in.summer 9holes easier to do.css is also 38 and weekday opens seems to be 39.main reason for asking is whilst talking with playing partner after round we were saying how it seems bit harsh.what i mean is everyone has handicap,shooting to it is a good days work and happy you should feel.now if your cat1 and shoot your 36 points then that is good round in any ones book,be it 1,2,3 or4 over.lets say if off 10 and shoot 10 over and have your 36 yet css is 39.you walk off having played to handicap that is there for you to play to,which you have just done yet its deemed not good enough and .1comes your way.sorry i know its bit of a rant and its just way things are but why bother having handicap if shooting to it is not enough.:rolleyes:

does it do yer heads in at times to:)

Have you ever heard of capitals or paragraphs? I tried to read it but even with patience it made no sense.

G1032

pinseeker wrote: »

just wondering guys what is normal css at your club.as have stated before last year was first year joining club.css was mostly 38 with some 39.was distance membership so moved just over month ago to get more golf in.summer 9holes easier to do.css is also 38 and weekday opens seems to be 39.main reason for asking is whilst talking with playing partner after round we were saying how it seems bit harsh.what i mean is everyone has handicap,shooting to it is a good days work and happy you should feel.now if your cat1 and shoot your 36 points then that is good round in any ones book,be it 1,2,3 or4 over.lets say if off 10 and shoot 10 over and have your 36 yet css is 39.you walk off having played to handicap that is there for you to play to,which you have just done yet its deemed not good enough and .1comes your way.sorry i know its bit of a rant and its just way things are but why bother having handicap if shooting to it is not enough.:rolleyes:

does it do yer heads in at times to

Posts written like the one above do my head in.

pinseeker

Sorry lads just kept typing as mind was racing.When i read it back it makes sense but hamster runs very fast on the wheel in my head.
To simplify it,do ye feel css can be bit harsh when you shoot to handicap you are given yet .1 comes your way.
If you were cat 1 and shot 36points it is good round of golf yet a css of 38 means .1.Having handicap seems pointless on such occasions.

sorry about the eyes hurting.

cheers g1032.
Sorry again lads just took off typing without thinking

mike12

Hi,
Are there a lot of NR to push up the CSS. It around 73 for medals and 37 points in our place.
Mike

G1032

pinseeker wrote: »

Sorry lads just kept typing as mind was racing.When i read it back it makes sense but hamster runs very fast on the wheel in my head.
To simplify it,do ye feel css can be bit harsh when you shoot to handicap you are given yet .1 comes your way.
If you were cat 1 and shot 36points it is good round of golf yet a css of 38 means .1.Having handicap seems pointless on such occasions.

sorry about the eyes hurting.

cheers g1032.
Sorry again lads just took off typing without thinking

It is harsh I suppose that 38 is a CSS, but the CSS is based on the scores of the day. It doesn't happen very often at my home club. I can remember it happening once ever.

However ,shooting 36 points doesn't mean you've played to your handicap................
Playing to your handicap on any given day essentially means shooting a score in the buffer zone or better. If you don't shoot in the buffer zone or better then you haven't played to your handicap.

pinseeker

Hi mike.
Not sure to be honest.Would people swiping beforhand and not bothering to enter scores effect it ya?
I know there is some sort of formula they work to but surely it is guys playing off complete wrong handicaps.With buffer zone of just 1 for say cat1 players they are actually not able to shoot to handicap given,they have to shoot lower as 36 points will not do with css of 38.

Seems unfair.Would be nice if you played to handicap and left alone from .1s.Guess its just the way it is.

G1032

pinseeker wrote: »

Hi mike.
Not sure to be honest.Would people swiping beforhand and not bothering to enter scores effect it ya?
I know there is some sort of formula they work to but surely it is guys playing off complete wrong handicaps.with buffer zone of just 1 for say cat1 players they are actually not able to shoot to handicap given,they have to shoot lower as 36 points will not do with css of 38.

Seems unfair.Would be nice if you played to handicap and left alone from .1s.Guess its just the way it is.

Read post 8. Shooting 36 points does not mean you have played to your handicap.If you do play to your handicap you will not get a .1

pinseeker

Hi g1032.
I under stand what you are saying regards css on the day.However handicap is given and if you shoot to it then its your 36 points,you have shot score you are meant to.
Now css on the day may suggest you are playing in conditions that warrent you to shoot better than your given handicap.
That doesn't seem to be the case so seems wrong to get .1 cause people must be shooting lights out with wrong handicaps perhaps.

I feel shooting 36 points is shooting to your handicap

k.p.h

Could someone explain css for me I'm not exactly sure how it works. Just I know it says 70 for it on the gui site for my home course which is actually a par 71.I'm presuming that its the measure and which the handicap's are adjusted or something

Mat the trasher

Explanation on calculation
http://www.congu.com/faqs/css.pdf

k.p.h

that's conclusive mat thanks:D

pinseeker

G1032 wrote: »

However ,shooting 36 points doesn't mean you've played to your handicap................
Playing to your handicap on any given day essentially means shooting a score in the buffer zone or better. If you don't shoot in the buffer zone or better then you haven't played to your handicap.

G1032 wrote: »

Read post 8. Shooting 36 points does not mean you have played to your handicap.If you do play to your handicap you will not get a .1

If you played a round G1032 and scored 36 points would you not consider you have played to your given handicap?
Any one i know would say 36 points is playing to handicap.
You have said playing to handicap is shooting in buffer zone and if you haven't then you have not played to handicap.Also if you play to handicap you will not get a .1

Example cat 1 shoots 36 points with css of 38.He has shot to handicap and got .1
Now in order to avoid .1 he should have shot 37.You believe if he had shot 37 points he would say i shot to my handicap.I feel he would say shot 1 better to avoid .1

Just the way i see it G1032.Could be completely wrong,if so fine il except that.

mike12

CSS is effected by NR's if all the Nr's are lower scores and the only ones putting in there cards are people who shoot 35/36 points and over it will push it up. In our club you can only have 1 NR a year any more and you need to give a reason to the committee.
Mike

f22

How is the Competition Scratch Score calculated?

This is not a straightforward calculation. Broadly speaking, the calculations follow

- For Men; Discount all scores returned by category 4 players (handicaps 21 to 28), for Ladies; Discount all scores returned by category 5 players (handicaps 29 to 36)

- Calculate the percentage of players who competed in the competition in each of categories 1, 2 and 3 [and 4 for Ladies],

- Calculate the percentage of scores returned by the category 1, 2 and 3 [and 4] players which were two over the Standard Scratch Score of the course, or better.

- Use the percentages from (2) and (3) to determine the Competition Scratch Score by referring to a table supplied by CONGU for the purpose.

PhilipMarlowe

36 points on a mickey mouse flat course with short par 4s and young trees is not the same as 36 points off the back tees at a 'real' course on a wet and windy April day.
36 points = level par. That's all it means.

It's like on tour when sometimes the cut is 2 under par and sometimes the cut is a couple over par. The cut is a relative measure... it offers a comparison of how difficult the field found the course - Sometimes the US open is won with a 4-round total that's over par and sometimes the Mickey Mouse open is won with a score of -26. A level par round is not the same thing in these circumstances.

CSS works along the same lines (relative difficulty).

CSS is linked to the course SSS and it can only take on a few values:
The lowest it can be is SSS - 1 and the highest it can be is SSS + 3

Off the back tees, my course (par 71) has a SSS of 73 which is two over par.
So on an 'easy' day the CSS can be as low as 72 (35 points) or as high as 76 (31 points). If I (cat 1 golfer) shoot 30 points on an impossible day, I've played to my handicap.

I understand where you're coming from but you are fixated on 'par' or 36 points whereas the SSS is more important and the CSS is what actually matters (but you can't know this until the competition is over).

dnjoyce

pinseeker wrote: »

If you played a round G1032 and scored 36 points would you not consider you have played to your given handicap?
Any one i know would say 36 points is playing to handicap.
You have said playing to handicap is shooting in buffer zone and if you haven't then you have not played to handicap.Also if you play to handicap you will not get a .1

Example cat 1 shoots 36 points with css of 38.He has shot to handicap and got .1
Now in order to avoid .1 he should have shot 37.You believe if he had shot 37 points he would say i shot to my handicap.I feel he would say shot 1 better to avoid .1

Just the way i see it G1032.Could be completely wrong,if so fine il except that.

I agree (i think!) If I shoot 36 points, I have played to my handicap. Fact. Just because other people have played better than their handicap, thus pushing up the CSS (in stableford points, or down in strokes) doesn't change the fact that I have played to my handicap. The problem as I see it (and certainly at my home course) is that there are so many sand-baggers who can hit 36-37 points without even trying, all the time saving their handicap for the "majors" that it extremely penalising on those cat 1 (and other) players who have to work their a*s off if their game is slightly off form just to hit the buffer zone. Conditions have to be horrendous for the css to be any worse than 37 in our place.

Anatom

Thanks for that Licksy!

For the first time, I think I understand what CSS means. It doesn't mean I'll do any better on the course though - just that next weekend I have to go out thinking that I'm playing in one of the majors....!

G1032

dnjoyce wrote: »

I agree (i think!) If I shoot 36 points, I have played to my handicap. Fact. Just because other people have played better than their handicap, thus pushing up the CSS (in stableford points, or down in strokes) doesn't change the fact that I have played to my handicap. The problem as I see it (and certainly at my home course) is that there are so many sand-baggers who can hit 36-37 points without even trying, all the time saving their handicap for the "majors" that it extremely penalising on those cat 1 (and other) players who have to work their a*s off if their game is slightly off form just to hit the buffer zone. Conditions have to be horrendous for the css to be any worse than 37 in our place.

It's not a fact. How many times does it need to be said? You play to your handicap when you shoot in the buffer zone or better. Not when you shoot 36 points. 36 points is just 36 points. You could shoot 34 points and play to your handicap and shoot 36 and not. It depends on the course and depends on the day.

Anatom

OK, confused again now - thanks G1032...

What's my "buffer zone" if I play off 18 and the course is par 72...???

PhilipMarlowe

Anatom wrote: »

OK, confused again now - thanks G1032...

What's my "buffer zone" if I play off 18 and the course is par 72...???

Par is irrelevant.
Par is what you like to shoot because it makes you feel good about yourself but it should be obvious that a scratch golfer shooting a par round at a ****e course is not the same as him shooting a par round off the back tees at the European Club. Throw in some wind into the mix and par becomes an even more irrelevant measure.

Like I said, shoot level par and you lead the US Open round 1.... shoot level par at the Bob Hope r1 and you're probably 120th.

So it should be clear (/bangs head off brick wall) that you need to measure your handicap from the difficulty of the course, and even further, to measure it against the difficulty ON THE DAY.
Your par 72 course may be championship course with 3 different tee boxes on every hole. It's not going to be equally difficult from each set of tees so each set of tees is assigned a seperate SSS.

Assuming (for simplicity) that your par 72 course also has a SSS of 72:
18 h/cap is category 3 so if you score 72, 73, 74, or 75 (= SSS or not worse than SSS +3) then you have played to your handicap (on this fictitious regular day in practice). Points equivalent is 36, 35, 34 or 33 for those who want it in Stableford.

Basically what that amounts to is you are considered to have played to your handicap when you bang-on shoot what the grader (GUI) thinks you should have for that course or within a few shots of that mark. The "few" shots in your case = 3 because you are a category 3 golfer. For a category 2 golfer the "few" shots is 2 and you can guess that cat. 1 = 1, cat. 4 = 4 etc.
This is what is known as the 'buffer zone'.

Of course, in competition, a CSS score is calculated based on the scores of your peers on the day. This has the effect of ajusting the SSS or tweaking it to suit the conditions. It's obvious (/bangs head for emphasis) that a pet day in August is not the same as a ****e day in April with sideways rain. So the CSS will move (within limits) to reflect the difficulty of the course on that day.
E.g. your same par 72 course with a SSS of 72 may have a CSS of 71 on an easy day.
This means you (cat. 3) need to shoot 71, 72, 73 or 74 (37, 36, 35 or 34 points) to be within your buffer. Shoot better and you get a cut - worse and you go out by .1

On a howler of a day, (your same par 72 course with a SSS of 72) CSS could potentially be SSS +3 so 75.
This means you (cat. 3) need to shoot 75, 76, 77 or 78 (33, 32, 31 or 30 points) to be within your buffer. Shoot better and you get a cut - worse and you go out by .1

Your 33 points is 3 over par (if you insist on using par as a measure) but probably went close to winning the day...

Anatom

I'll bet you feel better now? I know I do!

Thanks for that again Licksy. I'll send some ice around to help with the bruising on your head from all that banging off the desk!!;)

dnjoyce

G1032 wrote: »

It's not a fact. How many times does it need to be said? You play to your handicap when you shoot in the buffer zone or better. Not when you shoot 36 points. 36 points is just 36 points. You could shoot 34 points and play to your handicap and shoot 36 and not. It depends on the course and depends on the day.

Fair enough, in the perfect world that Licksy describes, I fully agree with you both. Sadly it doesn't work like this at my home course, which is where my gripe lies - not with your logic. CSS of 71 for example on a beautiful summers day, but also CSS 71 on a crappy wind/rain coming in up under the umbrella day - very rarely is there movement to coincide with the bad weather conditions (due to the aforementioned sand-baggers/bandits)

G1032

dnjoyce wrote: »

Fair enough, in the perfect world that Licksy describes, I fully agree with you both. Sadly it doesn't work like this at my home course, which is where my gripe lies - not with your logic. CSS of 71 for example on a beautiful summers day, but also CSS 71 on a crappy wind/rain coming in up under the umbrella day - very rarely is there movement to coincide with the bad weather conditions (due to the aforementioned sand-baggers/bandits)

Well that's an issue that's there because of the sand-baggers, or else the competition secretary at your club is not correctly calculating the CSS. Golf is an honest game and is supposed to be played with the utmost integrity. Them sand-baggers are not playing honestly and are consequently distorting the CSS.
That however doesn't change the fact the playing to your handicap means shooting in the buffer or better and not necessarily shooting 36 points.

pinseeker

As i stated in previous post and coincides with dnjoyce that conditions i played in be it unreal windy or calm and sunny the css remains the same.
As you said g1032 probably just to many sand-baggers raising the css.Perhaps maybe a pile of new members throwing in 3 bad first cards and shooting lights out.

Here is one for ye that ye may find strange.The club i joined for first time last year had system where you signed in on book and went out and played,then entered score in computer after.I didn't find it strange as was first experience of competition play.
Wasn't till i played few local opens that i clicked it was strange.As in i think members who were having bad day could just not bother entering score after and .1 would be avoided.
Surely a reason for high css there as only most decent rounds entered.Maybe a case that people did still enter score good or bad,but as we know there is always a few

Cosmic Penguin

mike12 wrote: »

CSS is effected by NR's if all the Nr's are lower scores and the only ones putting in there cards are people who shoot 35/36 points and over it will push it up. In our club you can only have 1 NR a year any more and you need to give a reason to the committee.
Mike

Our club adds 0.1 for NR's, removing the incentive

Mr. Larson

Cosmic Penguin wrote: »

Our club adds 0.1 for NR's, removing the incentive

Why don't all clubs do this I wonder. It's pretty important to have consistency there I would have thought.

Actually, at my club if you sign into the comp and don't enter anything into the computer you don't get 0.1
However if you sign into the comp and just enter n/r all the way you do get 0.1
There should be an automatic n/r for both in my book.

mike12

Jabberwocky wrote: »

Why don't all clubs do this I wonder. It's pretty important to have consistency there I would have thought.

Actually, at my club if you sign into the comp and don't enter anything into the computer you don't get 0.1
However if you sign into the comp and just enter n/r all the way you do get 0.1
There should be an automatic n/r for both in my book.

You get the .1 if u no return but don't think that is a deterrent to people who are trying to get up for a big comp or would be in line for a cut but know the score is not good enough to win so they NR, all scores should be returned.
Mike