If the shell is classic but the engine is .......

howardmarks

Upgraded or changed completely for that matter is it still regarded as a classic?
For e.g a 1978 mini with a 2002 honda engine
What is it now? Is it taxed and insured as a classic or is it taxed classic and insured different??

I know most classics keep their original engines but in the event its very rare and the only replacement is a different engine entirely how does that work?

Or a 70's chassis for a beetle with a fibreglass shell replacement and a ford focus engine. Just really want to know the guidelines here

_Conrad_

the mini is just a mini with a replacement engine, would count as quite heavily modified seeing as it has an engine made by a different manufacturer, but that would still come under the vintage tax band, and you'd get classic insurance on it without a doubt providing you yourself meet the criteria


the fibreglass kitcar should really not be registered as a beetle, but people used to always just leave it registered at that.
It's a beetle chassis alright, but it really should be registered as whatever the kit is called. Like all those dutton kit cars and Jagos (replica ww2 jeep) etc, some of those are registered as the name of the kit, some as their base vehicle (mk2 escort, cortinas etc), which they shouldn't be, try having an accident and sorting the mess out after

Big Nasty

I suppose Revenue are the only ones who can say for sure but I know a few lads with classic cars with a brand new crate engine dropped in and they are taxed and insured as classic - legal or not I don't know.

There lies the question if you're engine throws a leg and you buy a new one how does that leave you legally? If you get a stroker kit and replace the top half of the engine is this technically a new engine? If new parts are fitted to the engine, suspension, drivetain where do you stand? Technically any car that has had an oil filter change is no longer 'original' so where does one draw the line?

Very grey area!

howardmarks

Yeah I came to the conclusion after reading up on kit cars I dont think id touch them cause of insurance reasons and there legality here tho some companies in the states do some nice examples of some beautiful 60s muscle cars.
My question really is geared towards the vw t25 with a suburu engine replacement. Thinking of importing an early 80s version of the t25 and with the camper rules here im not sure if it would qualify if its not a factory conversion so was considering the fact it should be eligble for classic insurance as its 20 years plus and not my daily.

_Conrad_

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I suppose Revenue are the only ones who can say for sure but I know a few lads with classic cars with a brand new crate engine dropped in and they are taxed and insured as classic - legal or not I don't know.

There lies the question if you're engine throws a leg and you buy a new one how does that leave you legally? If you get a stroker kit and replace the top half of the engine is this technically a new engine? If new parts are fitted to the engine, suspension, drivetain where do you stand? Technically any car that has had an oil filter change is no longer 'original' so where does one draw the line?

Very grey area!

engine changes won't affect vintage tax classification. you have to notify your insurance company but that's different to tax and registration.

There are also many classic cars with a LOT of brand new parts on them to replace rusted body panels etc, that doesn't affect whether the car is considered old or new.


The problems start you have have a situation like that beetle chassis based kit car the OP described, the question is what actually is that car?
It's a totally different situation to changing the engine in a calssic car



The vw van will only qualify as a camper if it matches the headroom requirement along with all the other things (doesn't there have to be around 6ft or room vertically in the back? not sure exact figure).
Subaru engine will affect insurance as the van is modified, but would mean nothing as regards it being a camper or having classic insurance

Big Nasty

_Conrad_ wrote: »

The vw van will only qualify as a camper if it matches the headroom requirement along with all the other things (doesn't there have to be around 6ft or room vertically in the back? not sure exact figure).
Subaru engine will affect insurance as the van is modified, but would mean nothing as regards it being a camper or having classic insurance

Thought as much in relation to the camper but say for arguments sake you changed a factory GM engine that was originally putting out 200bhp to a new crate high power GM engine that's putting out 500bhp? How would you stand then?

VolvoMan

Regarding reshells, I often find it understand how a car that has had its whole body swapped for a new one can be regarded as the same vehicle. Surely it's a bit like Trigger's old broom?

howardmarks

VolvoMan wrote: »

Regarding reshells, I often find it understand how a car that has had its whole body swapped for a new one can be regarded as the same vehicle. Surely it's a bit like Trigger's old broom?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbha4XclSMU

wildefalcon

VolvoMan wrote: »

Regarding reshells, I often find it understand how a car that has had its whole body swapped for a new one can be regarded as the same vehicle. Surely it's a bit like Trigger's old broom?

The rules are dead simple:

New chassis, new registration.

VW beetles with the original floor pan and new body - original chassis, original reg, and, depending on year, vintage tax. So, the dune buggy on the '72 chassis is legit.

New heritage body shell on a mini - new chassis - new car, New VRT, new NCT, new reg etc.

Repair an existing body shell - original chassis, original reg.

That's if you tell them of course. Opposite for insurance - unless you tell them, you're not insured!

Mind you, a number of VROs don't quite know this and if you ask about replacing the chassis they say "that's grand".

iphone4g

wildefalcon wrote: »

The rules are dead simple:

New chassis, new registration.

VW beetles with the original floor pan and new body - original chassis, original reg, and, depending on year, vintage tax. So, the dune buggy on the '72 chassis is legit.

New heritage body shell on a mini - new chassis - new car, New VRT, new NCT, new reg etc.

Repair an existing body shell - original chassis, original reg.

That's if you tell them of course. Opposite for insurance - unless you tell them, you're not insured!

Mind you, a number of VROs don't quite know this and if you ask about replacing the chassis they say "that's grand".

What can you do if the repair replaces the area where the chassis number was?

_Conrad_

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Thought as much in relation to the camper but say for arguments sake you changed a factory GM engine that was originally putting out 200bhp to a new crate high power GM engine that's putting out 500bhp? How would you stand then?

The engine is just a part, when you fit a 500 bhp engine you're replacing an old part with a new one, but also increasing power, so you've modifed the vehicle, you declare it to your insurance company, they ask for loads of money, nothing else changes.
You've essentially "tuned up" your car in a really big way, but you havn't changed what car it is.
The power or engine type or size have nothing to do with whether a car fits into the vintage tax band or not.

As for the "re-shell" thing, that's largely used as a loophole in this country, where people get away with using the reg and chassis number of a very old rangerover or landrover to register a much newer one either on an old irish reg or on a ZV reg to avoid tax and NCT/DOE.

You are allowed to re shell a car, in resotration for example, this comes from when most vehicles had a seperate chassis and body. What those people do however, is transfer the reg plates ans VIN plate to a much newer vehicle, and nothing else

hi5

It goes back to the days of the 'coach builder' when what you bought was a chassis and had a specialist build a body for that chassis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder

In the early motoring days, when series production did not yet exist, the process of acquiring a new vehicle was more complex. A customer approached a chassis motoring brand, who used to deliver to the customer only the rolling chassis, comprising: chassis, drivetrain (engine, gearbox, differential, axles, wheels), suspension, steering system and the radiator. Noticeable fact is that the radiator was the only visual element identifying the rolling chassis brand. Subsequently the customer approached a coachbuilder, requesting a personal body design to be fitted on the purchased rolling chassis. Initially, the skills used to build the wooden and metal bodies of vehicles were so specialized, (such as the English wheel), that most manufacturers procured contracts with existing coachbuilders to produce bodies for their chassis. For example, Fisher Body built all of Cadillac's closed bodies in the 1910s.

Big Nasty

hi5 wrote: »

It goes back to the days of the 'coach builder' when what you bought was a chassis and had a specialist build a body for that chassis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coachbuilder

In the early motoring days, when series production did not yet exist, the process of acquiring a new vehicle was more complex. A customer approached a chassis motoring brand, who used to deliver to the customer only the rolling chassis, comprising: chassis, drivetrain (engine, gearbox, differential, axles, wheels), suspension, steering system and the radiator. Noticeable fact is that the radiator was the only visual element identifying the rolling chassis brand. Subsequently the customer approached a coachbuilder, requesting a personal body design to be fitted on the purchased rolling chassis. Initially, the skills used to build the wooden and metal bodies of vehicles were so specialized, (such as the English wheel), that most manufacturers procured contracts with existing coachbuilders to produce bodies for their chassis. For example, Fisher Body built all of Cadillac's closed bodies in the 1910s.

GM own Fisher for donkeys. The Fisher emblem was on all GM cars up until at least the '80's.

wildefalcon

_Conrad_ wrote: »

The engine is just a part, when you fit a 500 bhp engine you're replacing an old part with a new one, but also increasing power, so you've modifed the vehicle, you declare it to your insurance company, they ask for loads of money, nothing else changes.
You've essentially "tuned up" your car in a really big way, but you havn't changed what car it is.
The power or engine type or size have nothing to do with whether a car fits into the vintage tax band or not.

As for the "re-shell" thing, that's largely used as a loophole in this country, where people get away with using the reg and chassis number of a very old rangerover or landrover to register a much newer one either on an old irish reg or on a ZV reg to avoid tax and NCT/DOE.

You are allowed to re shell a car, in resotration for example, this comes from when most vehicles had a seperate chassis and body. What those people do however, is transfer the reg plates ans VIN plate to a much newer vehicle, and nothing else

That's right, "ringers" illegal, easy to spot and something the Revenue are, rightly, hot on.

If, however they leave the range rover chassis, and fit a new separate body on it (newer body, or discovery body), then they are within the law to do this (insurance besides).

As for damaged chassis numbers - happens a lot, no problem, just restamp it.

You aren't doing anything illegal, are you? So what's the problem? Take a few photos while you are doing it, if it comes to court then you can say to the judge - here is the damage, here I fixed it, here I put the number back, here is the old piece of metal. If it's reasonable and you are credible the judge should find in your favour. Remember - its YOUR car.

Don't forget that most cars now have hidden chassis numbers, and if you are ringing the car a forensic examination will catch you out. Example, Rolls Royce used (and possibly still do) use the chassis number everywhere else, engine, gearbox, small components etc.

deckie27

howardmarks wrote: »

Yeah I came to the conclusion after reading up on kit cars I dont think id touch them cause of insurance reasons and there legality here tho some companies in the states do some nice examples of some beautiful 60s muscle cars.
My question really is geared towards the vw t25 with a suburu engine replacement. Thinking of importing an early 80s version of the t25 and with the camper rules here im not sure if it would qualify if its not a factory conversion so was considering the fact it should be eligble for classic insurance as its 20 years plus and not my daily.

I know of the t25 your thinking of buying I wouldn't worry about revenue, also mote the height restriction is gone since the first of January

I'd be worried about insurance trying calling a couple

_Conrad_

deckie27 wrote: »

wouldn't worry about revenue, also mote the height restriction is gone since the first of January

is it? that would be good if so, was a stupid feckin rule as there are plenty of campers genuinely used for that, like the VWs, which woudln't fit that rule

howardmarks

deckie27 wrote: »

I know of the t25 your thinking of buying I wouldn't worry about revenue, also mote the height restriction is gone since the first of January

I'd be worried about insurance trying calling a couple

any reference to the removal of the height restriction? I hadnt heard this.

deckie27

Oh **** sorry the rigid height restriction is gone for vehicles built originally as campervans




Motor Caravans/Motor Homes
To be deemed a motor caravan/motor home a vehicle must, be a Category M1, M2 or M3 vehicle (EU vehicle classification with a bodytype SA) and must be constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:
seats and table,sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,cooking facilities, andstorage facilities.It should be noted that this equipment must be rigidly fixed to the living compartment, however, the table may be designed to be easily removable.
Motor caravans/motor homes registered on or after 1 January 2011, will be charged VRT at 13.3% of the open market selling price of the vehicle at the time of registration.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html#section11

_Conrad_

deckie27 wrote: »

Oh **** sorry the rigid height restriction is gone for vehicles built originally as campervans

well that's not all that good then, wonder why they even bothered in that case