C.A.B. open investigation into the affairs of Micael Lowry

Just heard on the radio that the CAB are opening an investigation into the affairs of Michael Lowry.

First piece of good news I've heard in a while.

beeftotheheels

Deleted User wrote: »

Just heard on the radio that the CAB are opening an investigation into the affairs of Michael Lowry.

First piece of good news I've heard in a while.

A successful CAB investigation into Denis could be worth a lot more!

Before people ask, I'm still looking for a link for this, it doesn't seem to be up on RTE's website yet although it was mentioned on the lunchtime news bulletin on Radio 1.

20Cent

On RTE website now.
CAB investigates Lowry's financial affairs
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0329/lowrym.html

Should have been done years ago. DOB should be investigated also.

rodento

You could add the last FG/Lab government

Cause you have to wonder how it happenned under there watch...

later12

The threshold of evidence required to even begin proceedings on a criminal case against Lowry, nevermind to secure a judgement against him, will be far greater than that which was required by Moriarty.

Indeed, that was a major part reasoning behind holding a tribunal to begin with, so I remain sceptical.

20Cent

Thought CAB would have a lower threshold of proof than a court case. They have taken money off criminals who have not been convicted of the crime. It was also intended to be used against corruption. Tax is how they got Al Capone it would hit Lowry and DOB where it hurts them most in the pocket.

The Waltzing Consumer

later10 wrote: »

The threshold of evidence required to even begin proceedings on a criminal case against Lowry, nevermind to secure a judgement against him, will be far greater than that which was required by Moriarty.

Indeed, that was a major part reasoning behind holding a tribunal to begin with, so I remain sceptical.

One of the spins used by Lowry and co.

As many of the legal and financial experts have said, just because it has the civil burden of proof does not mean at all that this case did not meet the criminal standard of proof. If you read the report and the main findings, there is no reasonable doubt in the judges mind, it is clear.

There is a 51% minimum in civil cases, but this case may have been 99%. What matters is the evidence.

The Waltzing Consumer

rodento wrote: »

You could add the last FG/Lab government

Cause you have to wonder how it happenned under there watch...

Maybe, but then you would have to investigate FF and Greens for being in government with him after that FG/LAB Government. You also have many FF who deserve to be investigated anyway.

Sure whilst we are at it, can we not get CAB to investigate SF? Lowry is peanuts compared to the amount of "funding" SF have gotten.

wildefalcon

I wonder how costs of the Tribunal will be allocated?

Considering the findings I would hope that Deputy Lowery would be asked to pay his fair share.

What is his house worth these days?

PatsytheNazi

Regardless, the vegetables of North Tipperary will still elect him in 4 years time

later12

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Regardless, the vegetables of North Tipperary will still elect him in 4 years time

Yes, the citizens of North Tipperary might well re-elect Lowry because quite apart from his shamings, Lowry is merely a symptom of an electoral disease, not himself the problem.

Voters are exasperated individuals who day in, day out face poorly run bureaucratic institutions like the HSE and the various Government Departments and Government bodies - the Local Authorities get a special mention here. as these local bodies and authorities fail to execute their duties, or execute them ineffectively, voters regularly resort to petition their national representatives. Their national representatives, being in the main locked out of the work of the executive of the state, have time aplenty to perform these menial tasks.

It is on the basis of his ability to deliver on these local issues more effectively than other local TDs, to skip over the the wreck and the tortuous hurly burly of bureaucracy that Michael Lowry gets repeatedly elected. He is seen not so much as a fraud, as a man who makes things happen and who delivers on his promises. You saw the same thing with Willie O'Dea. Politicians, take note.

PatsytheNazi

later10 wrote: »

Yes, the citizens of North Tipperary might well re-elect Lowry because quite apart from his shamings, Lowry is merely a symptom of an electoral disease, not himself the problem.

Voters are exasperated individuals who day in, day out face poorly run bureaucratic institutions like the HSE and the various Government Departments and Government bodies - the Local Authorities get a special mention here. as these local bodies and authorities fail to execute their duties, or execute them ineffectively, voters regularly resort to petition their national representatives. Their national representatives, being in the main locked out of the work of the executive of the state, have time aplenty to perform these menial tasks.

It is on the basis of his ability to deliver on these local issues more effectively than other local TDs, to skip over the the wreck and the tortuous hurly burly of bureaucracy that Michael Lowry gets repeatedly elected. He is seen not so much as a fraud, as a man who makes things happen and who delivers on his promises. You saw the same thing with Willie O'Dea. Politicians, take note.

Yes I know the difficulties people can have with our very hard working public service bodies, HSE, planning permission etc :rolleyes: But could the Gombeens not figure it out that the Citizen Advice Beareau's can give the citizen the right advice so that they can get the issue fixed if it is their entitlement and not the nudge, nudge, wink, wink clientism of Lowry and similiar corrupt lowlife who have bankrupted the country ?

later12

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yes I know the difficulties people can have with our very hard working public service bodies, HSE, planning permission etc :rolleyes:

I said that they are bureaucratic and often fail to execute their duties or execute their duties ineffectively. That itself is the reason why difficulties arise whereby individuals feel the need to go petition politicians.

To be clear, there is nothing inherently wrong in petitioning a politician - the argument is that one ought to petition the appropriate man. It's all very well advising that people really ought to go to the county or urban concillors to rectify a problem, but why go to the middleman if there is a TD with more perceived clout (i.e. perceived in the civil and public service as well as amongst the public) with a lot of time on his hands, being as he is, locked out of the decision making in Dublin?

You see the problem arises at the top - if it were not for local issues most national politicians would be left making empty meaningless speeches to similiarly meaningless politicians in the Dail Chamber while the other lads were around the Cabinet Table. Nobody is truly satisfied with the current situation apart from perhaps, members of the Cabinet.

PeterIanStaker

This CAB investigation is really shutting the door after the horse(s) have bolted.

Complete and utter waste of more taxpayers' money.

Do you really think the likes of Lowry will get anything more than a slap on the wrist?

bryaner

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

This CAB investigation is really shutting the door after the horse(s) have bolted.

Complete and utter waste of more taxpayers' money.

Do you really think the likes of Lowry will get anything more than a slap on the wrist?

CAB aren't known for slaps on the wrist..

PeterIanStaker

bryaner wrote: »

CAB aren't known for slaps on the wrist..

I'm sure then that they'll let him go with a pat on the back and an obedient tug of the forelock, and announce they can't find enough evidence to proceed further, or something.

beeftotheheels

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

This CAB investigation is really shutting the door after the horse(s) have bolted.

Complete and utter waste of more taxpayers' money.

Do you really think the likes of Lowry will get anything more than a slap on the wrist?

I have to disagree for two reasons.

1. For too long we have treated white collar crime, especially when perpetrated by our politicians, from tax evasion through to "bribes", as being a civil wrong. If it is a crime, it should be treated as a crime, there should be a criminal investigation, a trial by a jury of ones peers, and if there is a conviction then the appropriate sentence should be handed down. That we have not had criminal investigations into the activities of our politicians previously does not mean one is not merited here. We need to draw a line in the sand. Part of rebuilding people's faith in the political system must mean that politicians are now seen to not be above the law. They are subject to the same laws of the land as the rest of us, and those laws must be enforced.

I'm not necessarily in favor of putting white collar criminals in jail. Their conviction should preclude them from holding an office which could lead to a repeat offence, so a few hundred hours community service should help them on their way to rehabilitation while ensuring local pensioners have their lawns mowed etc

2. I don't wish to jump the gun here, the Gardaí have only just got the case so it is no where near a file going to the DPP/ successful prosecution... However, if a crime was committed here, and can be proven to the satisfaction of a court of law/ jury of peers, while one side of the coin is Mr Lowry, the other is Mr O'Brien. If a case against Mr Lowry succeeds, it makes a successful prosecution of Mr O'Brien more likely. A CAB action against Mr O'Brien (and potentially Mr Desmond), while being insufficient to restore our economy to full health, would more than pay for itself (and the tribunal to date, and maybe even a year's worth of interest on our huge national debt).

bonzos

If only 5% of the report is true the ML (and DOB) should be jailed! A guy from FAS was jailed for 2 years for scamming €600k from the tax payer,by that marker ML should get life if convicted.

PeterIanStaker

beeftotheheels wrote: »

I'm not necessarily in favor of putting white collar criminals in jail

Why not? Personally, I think white collar guys should go to jail like all the other criminals, and live in fear of being stabbed, beaten or arse raped.

mike65

I'm wondering if the CAB could end up undermining the Moriarity Tribunal findings...

later12

bonzos wrote: »

If only 5% of the report is true the ML (and DOB) should be jailed! A guy from FAS was jailed for 2 years for scamming €600k from the tax payer,by that marker ML should get life if convicted.

But there is no accusation that Michael Lowry's transgressions, if they are to be believed as outlined in Moriarty, involved stealing from the taxpayer directly.

Of course if you are instead talking about the McCracken tribunal, you're right in describing Lowry's tax violations as scamming the tax payer, but in that case your comparative figures are a long way off.

PeterIanStaker

mike65 wrote: »

I'm wondering if the CAB could end up undermining the Moriarity Tribunal findings...

How do you mean, and in what way?

Sorry just interested.

Sunnyisland

In many of the cabs cases the onus is on the accused to prove where he/she got the funds from and if money/property can not be accounted for, Money or property is seized and very quickly.

Mr.Micro

The CAB investigating Lousy will be a real bind for him. I have no doubt that he is well worried no matter what bravado his rubber mug shows.

beeftotheheels

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Why not? Personally, I think white collar guys should go to jail like all the other criminals, and live in fear of being stabbed, beaten or arse raped.

Because putting them in jail costs us money, and we get little benefit other than satisfying some sort of blood lust as evidenced by your post.

Giving them community service sentences costs us nothing, and might in fact save us money/ make Ireland a nicer place to live.

In order for this to work the general populace would need to understand that such a conviction is a badge of disgrace and that the convicted individual should be precluded from ever holding any paid office again. That they are criminals even if not in jail.

If that was understood, then we could make them contribute something back to society by giving them long community service sentences.

Say, we had a teacher turned politician who was found guilty of accepting bribes. If we put him in jail it costs us money, and gains us nothing. If instead we sentence him to 5 years work with a charity which runs after hours school support for children in disadvantaged areas/ with learning difficulties then we get something back. He works for free, as a teacher which he is trained to do, to help children who need that help.

No cost, yet a benefit to a sector of society who need that help.

While I accept the need for society to seek retribution maybe we could satisfy that by having him don a bright yellow "convict" jacket (Boy George in NY) one morning a week, and pick up dog p00 in Stephen's green or some other task which would generally be considered unsavory while needing doing.

But we gain more by having him work as a teacher for free if that is what he's qualified to do, we make him work to repay his debt to society by helping a vulnerable sector of society while utilizing any skills that the individual legitimately has.