dim lights and close shutters

rallye150flyer

Hi all

flying in on an fr flight while i was on a stags today and some of the lads got wind i had a ppl which made them think i knew everything there was to be known about aviation and that i could have flown the 737-800 no bother even though i only have about 95hrs !!! the innocence of drunken stags.

two of the questions i got asked where

why is it standard procedure to dim the lights on take off/app and why must the window blinds be left open.

i decided to hazard guess's at both question's i was under the impression that the lights get dimmed in case of a sudden need for power from the engines the circuit would trip or something and in regards to the window it was so pax could see if there was a fire on either side of the aircraft in an emergency situation or something of that nature

so if somebody who actually knows te real reasons it would be nice to know thanks so i can enlighten people with do you know why this happens storys........ PS doesn't the aer lingus retro look great !!

Dacian

Dim lights: To ensure that passenger and crew vision is adjusted to that of the outside. EG. If lights were on and you had to evacuate at night the pax would have no night vision as they got to the door, the instinct would be to stop at the door.

Windows open: This is to ensure the pax and crew have full vision of outside conditions in case of an incident. EG, they could see an engine fire, or they could see fire outside a door and know not to open that one.

rallye150flyer

Dacian wrote: »

Dim lights: To ensure that passenger and crew vision is adjusted to that of the outside. EG. If lights were on and you had to evacuate at night the pax would have no night vision as they got to the door, the instinct would be to stop at the door.

this makes sense alri thats good to know and the window blinds i was pretty close thanks

I understood that the blinds up was also to do with emergency workers being able to see inside in case of a crash.

Manic Moran

There's also an argument to be made that keeping the blinds closed will prevent people inside from seeing out, and thus reducing panic from the being able to visually associate with the impending doom.

As my first instructor told me: "If you're going down with no engine at night, keep a close eye on the altimeter. When you're about 100 feet above where you think the ground is, turn on your landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn 'em off."

NTM

Growler!!!

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's also an argument to be made that keeping the blinds closed will prevent people inside from seeing out, and thus reducing panic from the being able to visually associate with the impending doom.

Arguement with who?

In the event of an engine fire and the blinds are closed - which side over wing exit do you pick? Quickly now... your life depends on it!!!

Rules are rules. Unfortunatly rules in aviation are usually bourne as the result of past disasters.

Foggy43

If you have worrried looking passengers perhaps closing the blinds on landing here would be a good idea. Would you try a 'go around'?

nag

I'm sure there is more than one reason for both questions. Regarding keeping the blinds open, I'm pretty sure that one of those reasons is so that personnel on the ground know that the plane hasn't been hi-jacked.
If someone hi-jacks a plane, one of the first things they're going to do is close all the blinds so the security forces can't see inside the plane. Therefore, if the standard is that all aircraft keep their blinds open in and around airports and someday an aircraft comes in with them all closed, you're going to know that something is up.

Dacian

nag wrote: »

If someone hi-jacks a plane, one of the first things they're going to do is close all the blinds so the security forces can't see inside the plane. Therefore, if the standard is that all aircraft keep their blinds open in and around airports and someday an aircraft comes in with them all closed, you're going to know that something is up.

If a plane is hijacked the authorities usually know well in advance of landing and looking to see if the blinds are down. The deviation form filed flight-plan, the message to ATC from the pilots, perhaps the demands of the hijackers may well give a hint before then........

Growler!!!

nag wrote: »

I'm sure there is more than one reason for both questions. Regarding keeping the blinds open, I'm pretty sure that one of those reasons is so that personnel on the ground know that the plane hasn't been hi-jacked.
If someone hi-jacks a plane, one of the first things they're going to do is close all the blinds so the security forces can't see inside the plane. Therefore, if the standard is that all aircraft keep their blinds open in and around airports and someday an aircraft comes in with them all closed, you're going to know that something is up.

If you can provide a reference for the above I'll eat me Cork approach plates:D:D

Manic Moran

Rules are rules. Unfortunatly rules in aviation are usually bourne as the result of past disasters

I'm being somewhat facaetious. I doubt that not being able to see the impending doom is going to lower the overall level of panic in the passenger cabin by a significant amount.

That said, in the US, they're not rules, just an accepted 'best practice'. Last time we had this topic, I scoured the FARs and couldn't find anything mandating the blinds or cabin lights. I can't recall if there was a conclusion that it was an actual rule in Europe.

NTM

youcrazyjesus!

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's also an argument to be made that keeping the blinds closed will prevent people inside from seeing out, and thus reducing panic from the being able to visually associate with the impending doom.

As my first instructor told me: "If you're going down with no engine at night, keep a close eye on the altimeter. When you're about 100 feet above where you think the ground is, turn on your landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn 'em off."

NTM

That's pretty dumb imo. Think about safety.

Fratton Fred

Facetious (adj) - treating serious subjects with humour.

youcrazyjesus!

Somewhat (adj) - slightly: to a small degree or extent;

Tenger

Dear Lord! When did this turn into the English Grammar forum!!!!

nag

Dacian wrote: »

If a plane is hijacked the authorities usually know well in advance of landing and looking to see if the blinds are down. The deviation form filed flight-plan, the message to ATC from the pilots, perhaps the demands of the hijackers may well give a hint before then........

Don't forget squawking 7500. Yes, hi-jacking 101 would indicate that any of these signals would indicate a hi-jacking. The point is that if an aircraft was out on a taxiway or runway with ALL it's blinds down, it would sound an alarm bell.

Growler!!! wrote: »

If you can provide a reference for the above I'll eat me Cork approach plates:D:D

If you can provide a reference (from an official source) for any other reason, I'll do the same.

Like I said, it's not THE reason for having them up, nor might it even be a primary reason but it can be an indication that something isn't quite right.

Growler!!!

nag wrote: »

If you can provide a reference (from an official source) for any other reason, I'll do the same.

Like I said, it's not THE reason for having them up, nor might it even be a primary reason but it can be an indication that something isn't quite right.

Done, taken from our Cabin Crew SEP Manual. (Its copied and pasted from a PDF file.) I'm not going to tell you which airline though:D.

Issue: 4

Revision: 0

Section 2 – Standard Operating Procedures Page

CABIN

SAFETY PROCEDURES
MANUAL
Issue Date: August 2008
Section 2 – Standard Operating Procedures

2.8 CABIN LIGHTS (AMC OPS 1.210 (a) 2b)

Cabin crew must dim the cabin lights for each take-off and landing, as these

are potentially the most dangerous stages of a flight, By dimming cabin lights,

it allows passengers and crew to become accustomed to lower visibility should

an unexpected emergency occur.

During early morning or night flights, an announcement must be made prior to

take-off and landing advising passengers that it is part of normal departure

and landing procedures to dim the cabin lights.

Cabin lights and control of cabin lights are specified in Section 5 – Aircraft Type

Specific

Cabin lights are dimmed for take off and landing to allow the eyes adapt to

outside light conditions when dark outside, preventing crew and passengers

from being dazzled in the event of a possible evacuation.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Facetious (adj) - treating serious subjects with humour.

Always knew what it meant but could never spell it:p.

Su Campu

Why do they dim the lights during daytime departures then? EI did it on my sunny midday flight to Paris a few weeks ago, and FR do it too. That would be counter intuitive, especially as it was a brilliantly sunny day.

orionm_73

It is probably done out of habit to be honest. I would imagine it is better to do it on every flight as a routine as that will help prevent crew forgetting to do it on certain flights only...

nag

Growler!!! wrote: »

Section 2 – Standard Operating Procedures Page....

Consider them eaten. I never said that wasn't the case though, just possibly not the only reason. My point still stands though, whether it's the primary purpose or (most likely) just a happy bi-product, if all the blinds were down, it would be suspicious.

jmayo

Manic Moran wrote: »

There's also an argument to be made that keeping the blinds closed will prevent people inside from seeing out, and thus reducing panic from the being able to visually associate with the impending doom.

So if pilot announces that they have problems and that people should shut the blinds then you know you are really fubarred ? :eek:

Manic Moran wrote: »

As my first instructor told me: "If you're going down with no engine at night, keep a close eye on the altimeter. When you're about 100 feet above where you think the ground is, turn on your landing lights. If you don't like what you see, turn 'em off."

NTM

Don't think about emergency landing too much if you are night flying in single engine.
Looking out into the darkness trying to guess what fields/areas would be landable just doesn't make for a comfortable flight.
Problem with the lit up areas is they tend to be too short and full of obstacles like wires, poles, buildings and cars. :mad:

Actually know some instructors who reckon one should never fly singles at night, but that would spoil the fun.

Su Campu

orionm_73 wrote: »

It is probably done out of habit to be honest. I would imagine it is better to do it on every flight as a routine as that will help prevent crew forgetting to do it on certain flights only...

I seriously doubt that's the reason. Aviation built on training and checklists, and to suggest that they should do something "in case they forget" the next time doesn't make sense. If they dim lights at night as a safety precaution, then they should equally leave them on in daytime for the same reason.

I was going to ask the chief flight attendant on exiting the aircraft why she did it but I forgot! :rolleyes: I will next time though.

Dacian

Growler!!! wrote: »

I'm not going to tell you which airline though:D.

Up for renewal soon? I may take a guess.......

Su Campu wrote: »

I seriously doubt that's the reason. Aviation built on training and checklists, and to suggest that they should do something "in case they forget" the next time doesn't make sense. If they dim lights at night as a safety precaution, then they should equally leave them on in daytime for the same reason.

Actually this does make sense. Aviation is all about compliance and standard operating procedures. Its better to rule that light must be dimmed on ALL flights rather than confuse the matter with saying "flights between dusk and dawn" Such a distinction leaves open the possibility of mis-interpretation.

Dimming the lights during the day will have a negligible effect on the pax vision if they have to evacuate, by keeping all window blinds open for take-off and landing the outside ambient light gets into the cabin. (Obviously this would not be the case if blinds were closed)

orionm_73

Su Campu wrote: »

I seriously doubt that's the reason. Aviation built on training and checklists, and to suggest that they should do something "in case they forget" the next time doesn't make sense. If they dim lights at night as a safety precaution, then they should equally leave them on in daytime for the same reason.

I was going to ask the chief flight attendant on exiting the aircraft why she did it but I forgot! :rolleyes: I will next time though.

The reason the lights are dimmed is to render the cabin as close as possible to how it would be if all the lights were knocked out in an emergency/crash. It is especially beneficial when it is dark outside, but also needs to be done during daylight as it will be darker inside the cabin anyway. As a "chief flight attendant" this is the answer I would give if you asked me.