Don't Sell Our State Utilities

00paul00

We should not sell our utility companies, eg: ESB, Bórd Gáis, Water, Coillte etc.
Doing so leaves our autonomy in relation to our weekly domestic bills, state resources etc, in the hands of business whose only interest is extracting the maximum of profit.
For example, in the UK where British Gas increased prices by approx 7% last December only to post record profits of stg£742m for that year. This follows a 15% hike in 2008 with profits that year of stg£1.95billion.

Our bills will only continue to go up....forever.

If we sell and buy back later, the cost will be astronomic as was the case with the West Link toll bridge.

Stretch out our payments to the IMF and keep our autonomy.

FISMA

00paul00 wrote: »

...in the hands of business whose only interest is extracting the maximum of profit.

Many businesses also have the interest to be profitable and efficient.

Wish I could say the same about the government.

andrew

Moved to Irish Economy

whiteonion

In most countries I've been to where they have privatised utilities prices have gone through the roof. Anyone who expects cheaper prices after you have privatised utilities is quite delusional.

jimmycrackcorm

It's a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand the Eircom sell-off has constrained its developement due to the burden of debt but on the other hand in government hands it would not have flourished either.

The only positive aspects have been through competition. Selling the Esb as a whole would be disasterous but keeping the grid in state hands and selling the generating stations individually would promote competition. It would also correct the situation where the ESB unions can hold the country to ransom for excessive pay.

View

whiteonion wrote: »

In most countries I've been to where they have privatised utilities prices have gone through the roof. Anyone who expects cheaper prices after you have privatised utilities is quite delusional.

So, do we actually have cheaper utility prices than in other states?

gigino

Our electricity is among the most expensive in the world. Not surprising when average ESB pay is double the average industrial wage. Do'nt you just hate government monopolies ?

Einhard

gigino wrote: »

Our electricity is among the most expensive in the world. Not surprising when average ESB pay is double the average industrial wage. Do'nt you just hate government monopolies ?

Considering that Ireland is a highly developed, wealthy nation, it's not that surprising that, in global terms, our electricity prices are high. In relation to the prices paid by our Europen neighbours though, our electricity charges aren't all that high. The Danes pay the highest, followed by the Germans, which is interesting, considering the high wind-energy capacity in both nations. Irish prices are relatively high compared to the EU 27, but far from outlandish. Indeed, most other similarly developed nations have boradly similar prices. Interestingly, between 2008 and 2009, Ireland saw the 3rd largest drop in electricity prices in the EU.

Much the same can be said of Ireland's gas prices.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/8-28052010-AP/EN/8-28052010-AP-EN.PDF

So, it seems that Ireland's hyper-inflated utility prices are something of a myth.

Welease

Einhard wrote: »

So, it seems that Ireland's hyper-inflated utility prices are something of a myth.

whiteonion wrote: »

In most countries I've been to where they have privatised utilities prices have gone through the roof. Anyone who expects cheaper prices after you have privatised utilities is quite delusional.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/8-28052010-AP/EN/8-28052010-AP-EN.PDF

If we are in line with private utility companies across Europe (albeit towards the top end) how can private utility prices have gone through the roof?

Pete_Cavan

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand the Eircom sell-off has constrained its developement due to the burden of debt but on the other hand in government hands it would not have flourished either.

The only positive aspects have been through competition. Selling the Esb as a whole would be disasterous but keeping the grid in state hands and selling the generating stations individually would promote competition. It would also correct the situation where the ESB unions can hold the country to ransom for excessive pay.

FGs plan was to sell off the generating stations but retain the national grid. From NewEra;

We will look to sell ESB International, Bord Gais and ESB PowerGen & Supply, when market and other conditions are appropriate. We have learnt the lessons of Eircom and will retain key infrastructure in the ownership of the State, i.e., the electricity and gas networks, and the hydro power stations which are so vital for flood control. The proceeds from the sale of non-strategic assets will be re-invested in NewERA through a new portfolio of State companies.

The new Programme for Government says;

A 21st century “Smart Grid”: Beginning with the hand-over of ESB’s transmission assets to Eirgrid, we will create a new ‘Smart Grid’ company with ultimate full ownership and responsibility for the development of Ireland’s electricity and gas networks.

It does also talk of selling assets, although it gives no indication as to what assets it proposes to sell;

Over time, we also propose to finance the investment programme from the sale of certain state assets.
We will target up to €2 billion in sales of non-strategic state assets drawing from the recommendations of the McCarthy Review Group on State Assets when available.

Einhard wrote: »

Considering that Ireland is a highly developed, wealthy nation, it's not that surprising that, in global terms, our electricity prices are high. In relation to the prices paid by our Europen neighbours though, our electricity charges aren't all that high. The Danes pay the highest, followed by the Germans, which is interesting, considering the high wind-energy capacity in both nations. Irish prices are relatively high compared to the EU 27, but far from outlandish. Indeed, most other similarly developed nations have boradly similar prices. Interestingly, between 2008 and 2009, Ireland saw the 3rd largest drop in electricity prices in the EU.

Much the same can be said of Ireland's gas prices.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/8-28052010-AP/EN/8-28052010-AP-EN.PDF

So, it seems that Ireland's hyper-inflated utility prices are something of a myth.

According to your link, our prices are high when you consider the relatively low tax rate applied to them. When you take taxes out, our electricity costs are higher than in Germany and Denmark. In fact, with the exception of Luxemburg (and Italy for whom no tax percentage is provided), any countries whos electrcity price is higher than here, it is only because they apply a tax rate of at least double ours.

So, it seems that Ireland's hyper-inflated electricity price is a reality.

Gumbo

View wrote: »

So, do we actually have cheaper utility prices than in other states?

No, were one of the most expensive.
May change after deregulation though.

Welease

kceire wrote: »

No, were one of the most expensive.
May change after deregulation though.

???

So why thank a post that says the price will go through the roof if the private sector took over, when that doesnt seem to be the case?

Sand

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The only positive aspects have been through competition. Selling the Esb as a whole would be disasterous but keeping the grid in state hands and selling the generating stations individually would promote competition. It would also correct the situation where the ESB unions can hold the country to ransom for excessive pay.

This is indeed the model of privatisation that ought to be aimed for. Truly strategic infrastructure which underpins the market should be identified and retained within state control (though clearly reforms will be needed to remove vested interests like the trade unions, who attempt to reward themselves by exploiting taxpayers and citizens). As much as possible privatisations ought to aim to create multiple suppliers, each unable to prevent market access to any other. Competition will follow as a result, with all its benefits.

ei.sdraob

Sand wrote: »

though clearly reforms will be needed to remove vested interests like the trade unions, who attempt to reward themselves by exploiting taxpayers and citizens

Yes unions should be banned from holding a country and its people ransom by controlling and witholding vital infrastructure/services such as electric grid or airtraffic control

robbyvibes

if the ECB or Federal Reserve wanted to eliminate debt, it wouldn't be a problem. just as they're able to create wealth from nothing, they also have the ability to destroy it. but when a country is dumb enough to exchange real tangible assets for fantasy, why would those said banks eliminate the debt? they can just take everything for nothing.

eco2live

Break them up so that there is no monopoly and sell them all and bring in competition. Then after they are sold rip up the out of date union agreements so employers have some chance of being competitive. The state run services competing against each other with the joke of regulation is a sham.

All state or semi state services are basket cases in Ireland.

Browney7

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand the Eircom sell-off has constrained its developement due to the burden of debt but on the other hand in government hands it would not have flourished either.

The only positive aspects have been through competition. Selling the Esb as a whole would be disasterous but keeping the grid in state hands and selling the generating stations individually would promote competition. It would also correct the situation where the ESB unions can hold the country to ransom for excessive pay.

Wouldn't Joe taxpayer be responsible for the cost of maintaining and improving the network too though?

Welease

Browney7 wrote: »

Wouldn't Joe taxpayer be responsible for the cost of maintaining and improving the network too though?

Yes, but that cost is charged to the private sector operators for using the infrastructure.. It has multiple benefits, you can ensure there is open access for competition, you can ensure that infrastructure is planned and investments made that follow a strategic national plan, the networks cannot be run down and asset stipped etc.

macannrb

eco2live wrote: »

Break them up so that there is no monopoly and sell them all and bring in competition. Then after they are sold rip up the out of date union agreements so employers have some chance of being competitive. The state run services competing against each other with the joke of regulation is a sham.

All state or semi state services are basket cases in Ireland.

I dont think I'd agree with this.

If we sell any of them, we would enevitably sell the ones that have potential and that perform well. The Private sector investment banks would obviously cherry pick the best ones, which subsidise the poorly performing ones.

We have too many quangos, the poor ones need to be shut down, but we should keep the better ones, ESB, Bord Gais, etc

But give them incentives to reform, and improve

Pete_Cavan

macannrb wrote: »

We have too many quangos, the poor ones need to be shut down, but we should keep the better ones, ESB, Bord Gais, etc

But give them incentives to reform, and improve

You mean incentives like giving them some competition?

eco2live

The state won't be able to sort them out. Look at the nightmare private company's have had in trying after they bought Air lingus and Eircom.

Both of those are only now starting proper reform. The unions have too much pull with politicians for there to be the political will to make the required changes. That is why I say sell.

Their running costs could be halved with the right reforms and those savings would make the company's more competitive and could be passed onto consumers.

Anyone who worked with or for any of these company's know that the agreements with the unions and the extra allowances, terms and conditions are bananas. I am not talking about the office staff. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place between managers, accountants and an overpaid militant work force.