MF 135 Mchale 991BJ wrapper.

emaherx

This may sound like a stupid idea but.................

A wrapper dose not require huge Horse power, but oil flow rate is important.

Requirement according to Mchale is 22 l/min @ 170 bar.

Output from MF135 accourding to Tractordata.com is 18.2 l/min @ 193.1 bar. (not sure how accurate this info is).

So trying to run the wrapper from the 135's hydraulics is going to lead to.
1. Very slow operation.
2. oil starvation of the pump, due to small resevoir.
3. overheating of the oil
4. all of the above.

So, to the stupid idea. Build / buy a PTO drivin system much like that found on hedge cutters/tractor mouted excuvators etc.


So, I'm looking for suggetions on where to find such a system prebuilt (even second hand).

or failing that where to source components. ie, PTO drivin pump, resevoir.
And would I require any extra components (except the obvoius hoses/couplers) such as an oil cooler.

pajero12

Sorry i dont have any answers to the pto question, but its worth enquiring about a hydraulic power pack like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa41MDnmboI&feature=related

reilig

It will have no problem working it, but it will be slow. While the information from Tractor Data is that it will operate at somewhere around 19l per minute, the reality is more like 12 to 14l per minute. It will power the wrapper and it will wrap bales, just slowly. I have a neighbour who works one on a MF35. It has enough oil. But it will only wrap about 20 bales per hour. Most of the MF 1 series have pumps with the same speed and aren't used much for wrapping.

To wrap 40 bales per hour, you will need an oil flow rate of above 30l per minute. A modern tractor with a fast pump can achieve this ticking over. A MF 1 series tractor cannot achieve half of this at full revs.

emaherx

Basicly, I want that without the engine or remote.

reilig

emaherx wrote: »

Basicly, I want that without the engine or remote.

vincenzolorenzo posted here in the past about having one of them or working for a contractor that has one. He might be worth a PM.

emaherx

reilig wrote: »

To wrap 40 bales per hour, you will need an oil flow rate of above 30l per minute. A modern tractor with a fast pump can achieve this ticking over. A MF 1 series tractor cannot achieve half of this at full revs.

Thanks for the reply. Speed is not that huge of an issue I suppose. My class 46 baler can't produce 40 bales of silage an hour any way.

However I think with an external PTO Pump it could run it as well as a modern tractor.

reilig

emaherx wrote: »

However I think with an external PTO Pump it could run it as well as a modern tractor.

Yes it could. However, you would also need an oil tank to hold oil for an external pump. The tank would need to be mounted on the wrapper.

pajero12

Bear in mind a pto shaft will be a pain, having to stop it everytime you turn!

emaherx

I'd be looking at mounting pump on tractor with resevoir on wrapper. So no shaft

vanderbadger

emaherx wrote: »

I'd be looking at mounting pump on tractor with resevoir on wrapper. So no shaft

i think i remember seeing an old david brown wrapping some years ago, there was a seperate pump for the wrapper, it fitted directly to pto, in other words there was no pto shaft, a bit like those tractor compressors you can get, the unit just fitted directly onto pto, im nearly sure that was the case anyway but its a good few years back, might be what you need
something like this maybe
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hydraulic-PTO-Gearbox-Group-3-Pump-68-80-l-min-/310285738143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item483e78a09f

emaherx

vanderbadger wrote: »

i think i remember seeing an old david brown wrapping some years ago, there was a seperate pump for the wrapper, it fitted directly to pto, in other words there was no pto shaft, a bit like those tractor compressors you can get, the unit just fitted directly onto pto, im nearly sure that was the case anyway but its a good few years back, might be what you need
something like this maybe
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hydraulic-PTO-Gearbox-Group-3-Pump-68-80-l-min-/310285738143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item483e78a09f

I was looking at them earlier. There is a better selection on their main site.

REFDESCRIPTIONQUANTITYPRICECOSTZZ001049GEARBOX 1:3 PUMP GROUP 2 ASSEMBLY 16.5CC 26.73L/MIN 190BAR1£172.48 / €198.35£172.48 / €198.35HF30KIT39L Black tank fitted with filler breather, 127mm level ind and 3/8" ported 35l/min tanktop filter1£150.98 / €173.63£150.98 / €173.63Subtotal£323.46 / €371.98Shipping (Shipping Zone 1)£45.22 / €52.00Total£368.68 / €423.98

I think this is what I need, PTO pump 26.73L/Min at 190 BAR.
Oil tank with filler breather, level indicator, and a filter on return line.

Dose this seem reasinable?,
Am I missing anything (apart from the hoses)? oil cooler?

Dose anyone know of anywhere in ireland that might supply this sort of stuff?

Tora Bora

emaherx wrote: »

I was looking at them earlier. There is a better selection on their main site.

REFDESCRIPTIONQUANTITYPRICECOSTZZ001049GEARBOX 1:3 PUMP GROUP 2 ASSEMBLY 16.5CC 26.73L/MIN 190BAR1£172.48 / €198.35£172.48 / €198.35HF30KIT39L Black tank fitted with filler breather, 127mm level ind and 3/8" ported 35l/min tanktop filter1£150.98 / €173.63£150.98 / €173.63Subtotal£323.46 / €371.98Shipping (Shipping Zone 1)£45.22 / €52.00Total£368.68 / €423.98

I think this is what I need, PTO pump 26.73L/Min at 190 BAR.
Oil tank with filler breather, level indicator, and a filter on return line.

Dose this seem reasinable?,
Am I missing anything (apart from the hoses)? oil cooler?

Dose anyone know of anywhere in ireland that might supply this sort of stuff?

Hi-Power, Cork. All sorts of hydraulic stuff.

rocketjk

We wrap with a 100 series massey with a auxiliary pump fitted and the ordinary tipping pipe pump together. Can wrap at about 30% revs any faster the bale throw off. These pumps are found on the second part of the multi power pump so go to a scrap yard get a multi power pump, this part will be burnt out but the second part-auxiliary pump will be perfect as it looped around internally and not under any pressure if it hasnt been piped up into the tractor. Put the outflow to the back of the tractor and have a return directly under it. Then make up a pipe of 1 ft length hyd hose and have two male connections. Plug them in and the oil will flow around in a loop. Other option is to put it through a spool valve but then you will have to keep lever on the spool pulled to wrap.

Then to make the two pumps work together you will need a three way valve,
1st setting is to work lift arms
2nd setting to work the tipping pipe
3rd setting to send the tipping pipe pump through a T using a non return.

Using the second pump you will have to have the three way valve in 3rd position and lift up the lift arms. this will add about 30% more speed in hydraulics.

Only draw back with this whole method is oil in the auxiliary pump is pumping all the time and is looped at the back of the tractor and if this is disconnected while tractor is running it will try to pump oil whine it has on where to go.

We have no probs wrapping 45+ bales an hour for a 1975 machine-Not bad!

Money wise all bits bobs and connections if you do the work yourself €400 should do the job. lift cover will have to come of to put in the new pump.

Muckit

emaherx wrote: »

I was looking at them earlier. There is a better selection on their main site.

REFDESCRIPTIONQUANTITYPRICECOSTZZ001049GEARBOX 1:3 PUMP GROUP 2 ASSEMBLY 16.5CC 26.73L/MIN 190BAR1£172.48 / €198.35£172.48 / €198.35HF30KIT39L Black tank fitted with filler breather, 127mm level ind and 3/8" ported 35l/min tanktop filter1£150.98 / €173.63£150.98 / €173.63Subtotal£323.46 / €371.98Shipping (Shipping Zone 1)£45.22 / €52.00Total£368.68 / €423.98

I think this is what I need, PTO pump 26.73L/Min at 190 BAR.
Oil tank with filler breather, level indicator, and a filter on return line.

Dose this seem reasinable?,
Am I missing anything (apart from the hoses)? oil cooler?

Dose anyone know of anywhere in ireland that might supply this sort of stuff?

Go to your nearest crowd that deal in hydraulics. You might be able to pick up a handy second hand job (like off an old hedge cutter like you said), that might do the trick. I wouldn't spend out big money on a new yoke unless I knew 100% it was going to work

I think what your planning is an excellent idea. I've seen contractors running wrappers on 135's before, but they're MX135's:D! Big difference in the amount of diesel they'I burn though. You'd easily have the cost of the pump paid back in jig time.

You seem to have it well planned out (ie no PTO shaft). Apart from them limiting turning circle, they'd be a death trap on a 135. Even having pump mounted close, I'd make a home made guard covering everything if I were you. Seat is very near pto and all you need is a string to dangle from your jacket and you'd be wrapping more the bales:rolleyes:

Best of luck with it. Let us know how you get on.

vanderbadger

we have hilly ground but our old fiat 90 90 wasnt the greatest on the wrapper, hydraulics were slow and a wrapper is actually a big enough machine especially when you have a bale on the turntable and one on the arm, always felt she struggled a bit, im sure 135 would do the job for you but id say it might be a frutrating enough kinda experience, might be easier wrap a few bales for the neighbour in return for his tractor for a day or something lilke that

emaherx

vanderbadger wrote: »

we have hilly ground but our old fiat 90 90 wasnt the greatest on the wrapper, hydraulics were slow and a wrapper is actually a big enough machine especially when you have a bale on the turntable and one on the arm, always felt she struggled a bit, im sure 135 would do the job for you but id say it might be a frutrating enough kinda experience, might be easier wrap a few bales for the neighbour in return for his tractor for a day or something lilke that

We have a 698T/Class 46 to bale with and a 390T to draw bales home on.
we draw the bales back to a flat paddock and line the bales up in rows, so the 135 dose not need to drive with a bale on the wrapper.

pajero12

May sound stupid but why not line up with the 135 and wrap with the 390t?

emaherx

pajero12 wrote: »

May sound stupid but why not line up with the 135 and wrap with the 390t?

390t can bring home 10 to 14 bales at a time depending on the condition of grass. we have a very dijointed farm, which is why we try to draw bales home to wrap, easier than hauling a lot of wrapped bales a couple at a time.

emaherx

rocketjk wrote: »

We wrap with a 100 series massey with a auxiliary pump fitted and the ordinary tipping pipe pump together. Can wrap at about 30% revs any faster the bale throw off. These pumps are found on the second part of the multi power pump so go to a scrap yard get a multi power pump, this part will be burnt out but the second part-auxiliary pump will be perfect as it looped around internally and not under any pressure if it hasnt been piped up into the tractor. Put the outflow to the back of the tractor and have a return directly under it. Then make up a pipe of 1 ft length hyd hose and have two male connections. Plug them in and the oil will flow around in a loop. Other option is to put it through a spool valve but then you will have to keep lever on the spool pulled to wrap.

Then to make the two pumps work together you will need a three way valve,
1st setting is to work lift arms
2nd setting to work the tipping pipe
3rd setting to send the tipping pipe pump through a T using a non return.

Using the second pump you will have to have the three way valve in 3rd position and lift up the lift arms. this will add about 30% more speed in hydraulics.

Only draw back with this whole method is oil in the auxiliary pump is pumping all the time and is looped at the back of the tractor and if this is disconnected while tractor is running it will try to pump oil whine it has on where to go.

We have no probs wrapping 45+ bales an hour for a 1975 machine-Not bad!

Money wise all bits bobs and connections if you do the work yourself €400 should do the job. lift cover will have to come of to put in the new pump.

thanks for that info, still think I will go with an external solution, I dont fancy taking the tractor apart (again) as I just/nearly finnished restoring it.



besides I like the idea of retro fitting the wrapper as it leaves it easy to work on any tractor in the future also.

Mr.Success

Would a Massey 265 be any good at wrapping. It probably has the same hydraulics as the 100 series like a 168 or a 185. It takes it about 45 secs to tip an 11 x 7 trailer, i would consider that slow compared to modern tractors.

coolio kidddd

i wouldnt dream of it to be honest the 135 in fact all of d 100 series masseys are useless for wrapping miles too slow apart from the 185 which has a bigger hydralic pump but i wouldnt recomend that because i know of a guy that wraps wit a 185 but he still had to retro-fit an auxillary pump on her for the job. as regards the pto job you could have breakdowns. would you consider buying a ford there the best cheap tractor for wrapping as they have rapid fast hydralics we have a ford 4600 at home on d same type rapper and wraps as fast as lightning and it can be any ford not just the 4600 and there fairly reliable too.

coolio kidddd

pajero12 wrote: »

Bear in mind a pto shaft will be a pain, having to stop it everytime you turn!

that is a very good point pajero i never thought of that now

emaherx

coolio kidddd wrote: »

i wouldnt dream of it to be honest the 135 in fact all of d 100 series masseys are useless for wrapping miles too slow apart from the 185 which has a bigger hydralic pump but i wouldnt recomend that because i know of a guy that wraps wit a 185 but he still had to retro-fit an auxillary pump on her for the job. as regards the pto job you could have breakdowns. would you consider buying a ford there the best cheap tractor for wrapping as they have rapid fast hydralics we have a ford 4600 at home on d same type rapper and wraps as fast as lightning and it can be any ford not just the 4600 and there fairly reliable too.

I never suggested running the wrapper off of the 135's own hydraulics but only from an external pump drivin by PTO. Pump and resevoir would be cheaper than another tractor. Another Cheap tractor may only lead to breakdowns anyway.

I am probably not going to go ahead with this for the moment anyway, I have another tractor (MF365) which we normally use to wrap, although its a little sick at the moment. I just have to get off my ass an fix it (engine rebuild/ clutch required)

But I haven't gone totally off of this idea. If I come across an old pump and resevoir from a hedge cutter or similar cheap, I might have another look at it.

Mr.Success wrote: »

Would a Massey 265 be any good at wrapping. It probably has the same hydraulics as the 100 series like a 168 or a 185. It takes it about 45 secs to tip an 11 x 7 trailer, i would consider that slow compared to modern tractors.

Dose the 265 have an auxilary pump for the spool valves? if it dose it can be linked with main pump to increase oil flow.

Even the 365 is slow enough wrapping unless you use the aux pump as well.

coolio kidddd wrote: »

that is a very good point pajero i never thought of that now

Not an issue as I was looking at a gearbox asembly which fits over the PTO, mounted directly onto back of tractor, so no PTO shaft needed.

Mr.Success

No the tractor has to auxi pump. Just the same pump used for the lift i think. There are no spool valves just one tipping pipe. You have to freeze the lift arms while you use it using a smaller lever.

Swinefluproof

Guy I used work for had an auxillary pump fitted on the front of a Ford 7610 because the tractor pumps were too slow for loading silage bales and cutting blocks off the clamp with a loader mounted shear grab. Was running off the crank shaft which meant it ran at much higher revs than off a PTO shaft. It had oil cooler and tank and had serious oil flow. He got it off an old Ford wheeled digger and it bolted straight on without too much trouble except a bracket to mount it. Maybe the old MF wheeled diggers had a similar system that could be adapted to suit the 135. Not exactly pretty but very very effective

scudster

rocketjk wrote: »

We wrap with a 100 series massey with a auxiliary pump fitted and the ordinary tipping pipe pump together. Can wrap at about 30% revs any faster the bale throw off. These pumps are found on the second part of the multi power pump so go to a scrap yard get a multi power pump, this part will be burnt out but the second part-auxiliary pump will be perfect as it looped around internally and not under any pressure if it hasnt been piped up into the tractor. Put the outflow to the back of the tractor and have a return directly under it. Then make up a pipe of 1 ft length hyd hose and have two male connections. Plug them in and the oil will flow around in a loop. Other option is to put it through a spool valve but then you will have to keep lever on the spool pulled to wrap.

Then to make the two pumps work together you will need a three way valve,
1st setting is to work lift arms
2nd setting to work the tipping pipe
3rd setting to send the tipping pipe pump through a T using a non return.

Using the second pump you will have to have the three way valve in 3rd position and lift up the lift arms. this will add about 30% more speed in hydraulics.

Only draw back with this whole method is oil in the auxiliary pump is pumping all the time and is looped at the back of the tractor and if this is disconnected while tractor is running it will try to pump oil whine it has on where to go.

We have no probs wrapping 45+ bales an hour for a 1975 machine-Not bad!

Money wise all bits bobs and connections if you do the work yourself €400 should do the job. lift cover will have to come of to put in the new pump.

Sorry to go off topic a bit here. Rocket, sounds like you could do with replacing the belts on your table. When the belts stretch and you move the roller out theres more room for the bale to roll back and forth. With new belts the bale is snug between the 2 rollers and cant go back and forth. Thats if you need to do more than 40 bales per hr thats what id recommend.

jackgreene35

what size of reservoir tank would i need to work a hydraulic top link 24" length by 2"bore , double acting cylinder

am thinking of buying a pto external pump for the mf135 tractor to work some hydraulic implements
or what size of pump i would need to put on the pto shaft:(