The attractiveness of 'the quiet type'?

ElaElaElano

Hi!

First post on this forum I think, normally post in AH but I'm kinda looking for relatively serious answers on this and that just ain't the place! And since I'm looking for a female perspective this seems like the place, but if it's better suited to PI or something, move along mods

Basically, from any conversations I have with women, whether that's in work (the office is six girls and me), to friends, family members, or even gauging from threads in this and other online communities where relationships/attractiveness/'the ideal man' is discussed, the general consensus is always, or at least nearly always, that a high amount of self confidence and a touch of arrogance are a prerequisite for finding a man attractive.

I've tried to adapt some kind of alter-ego as a 'man's man' but it never works and really I'm only fooling myself. I don't like one night stands (not for moral reasons and nothing against anyone who does, it's just not for me), I despise the objectification of women in your typical lads' conversation, so the end result is basically that nearly all of my friends are girls, but they all see me as this nice, caring type but with no attraction. "Are you definitely not gay?" has come up more than once!

In terms of past relationships, I've had two significant ones- one of 2 years and another 18 months. Problem in both of them was an inferiority complex whereby I thought 'woah, she's way too good for me' and I guess despite never openly self-criticising, those thoughts would have become apparent anyway, and both of them, it ended up, were cheating. Obviously, it's a horrible thing to do etc. etc. but I'd have to apportion some of the blame at least to myself, on the basis that if you can't find yourself attractive, how can anyone else? I don't know if that statement is 100% true but it's my best explanation.

I'm veering off into ramble territory now, so basically, from a girl's perspective; can a man's attitude towards you, kindness, and the knowledge that he's trustworthy, overcome your reservations about his own lack of self-esteem? Can you ever love someone who doesn't truly love themselves?

Sorry for the length of the post, and I hope some of it makes some kind of sense!


E

ElaElaElano

ElaElaElano wrote: »

can a man's attitude towards you, kindness, and the knowledge that he's trustworthy, overcome your reservations about his own lack of self-esteem?

Personally, no not really.
I've been there before and I wouldn't go there again.
I need someone who is happy and secure in themselves. He might be lovely but I need another half in the relationship, an equal I can respect and even learn from and vice versa.

I'm sorry to hear you were cheated on though, you didn't deserve that at all regardless of what issues you have.

If you start thinking all the time she's too good for me and acting like it she might start to believe it too.
I think you should work on the confidence issues before looking for anything more serious again

Wibbs

Better here I reckon ElaElaElano.

ElaElaElano wrote: »

the general consensus is always, or at least nearly always, that a high amount of self confidence and a touch of arrogance are a prerequisite for finding a man attractive.

The operative word is "general" and yea generally that's true, but what floats one woman's boat won't float anothers. It depends so much on the individual person and things like age etc. It has been my general observation that a woman in her early 20's is more likely to go for the cocky arrogant type, the same woman at 35 is more likely to end up with the externally quite quiet type(to the level of boring sod sometimes).

so the end result is basically that nearly all of my friends are girls, but they all see me as this nice, caring type but with no attraction. "Are you definitely not gay?" has come up more than once!

IMHO this is a large part of the problem with men's interactions with women these days. So many have women friends that they don't know how to engage romantically with women. They go for the friendship first. Usually doomed to failure too. Look around your male mates, look at the "players" you know. Pick the biggest man whore you can find and I'll put good money down he has no or next to no women friends. You wanna girlfriend? The clue is in the word itself. Aim for the "girl" first and the "friend" second.

Problem in both of them was an inferiority complex whereby I thought 'woah, she's way too good for me'

With respect, right there is one of the daftest things you could say. What would I say as a retort? Bollocks. No one is too good for you. Put that crapola right outa your head.

and I guess despite never openly self-criticising, those thoughts would have become apparent anyway,

Most likely. Compared to men women have both a better radar for self doubt in men and a lower tolerance for it. Much lower.

and both of them, it ended up, were cheating. Obviously, it's a horrible thing to do etc. etc.

Yep they were clearly silly wagons and you're well rid.

but I'd have to apportion some of the blame at least to myself, on the basis that if you can't find yourself attractive, how can anyone else? I don't know if that statement is 100% true but it's my best explanation.

[UNPOPULAR OPINION]I'd somewhat agree funny enough. Yea they were slappers, but like you say in some way you may have enabled it. Now you'll just get the amoral whores of either gender, but a good chunk of the time there's a reason for the cheating in a long termer and it's very rarely 100% on the cheater. [/UNPOPULAR OPINION]

I'm veering off into ramble territory now, so basically, from a girl's perspective; can a man's attitude towards you, kindness, and the knowledge that he's trustworthy, overcome your reservations about his own lack of self-esteem? Can you ever love someone who doesn't truly love themselves?

I say no, or it'll be easier to stop loving them if you know what I mean. Plus attraction is not a checklist. Kindness and trust are vital, but in the early stages, it boils down to "I'd do him/her". We can couch it in airy fairy language, love at first sight/we have a connection/butterflies/etc, but it does boil down to attraction. No? Then how do we explain why more long term relationships kick off after a drunken fumble in a night club between strangers, than when a man and woman as good friends decide to try for more.

TL;DR? work on your self worth for you and like I said above you want a girlfriend? Aim for the "girl" first and the "friend" second.

metrovelvet

^ Also OP, people often mistake confidence for self esteem. A common but fatal mistake.

And just to add something to what Wibbs said, I know a couple of players and its not so much that they deliberately have no female friends, its that they cant relate to women in ways other than through sex, or at least the sex eventually enters the picture and they cant maintain the boundaries and low and behold the friendship cant be sustained one way or another.

And I dont know if more LTRS kick off from nightclubs. I know a few people who are married where something did emerge/evolve out of a friendship first.

I dont think you should develop any kind of alter ego or be someone else to attract women. You have to find a way to be yourself, because you want to be loved for yourself, not for your on show persona, but a you that has the self esteem to be with someone, because it does take high self esteem to bear the insecurities and topsy turvys of other people.

cafecolour

First off, saying something like "I despise the objectification of women in your typical lads' conversation" and that's why you don't have male friends is just an excuse - there are plenty of groups of guys who don't spend their talking about 'who has the better pair' and the like.

As said in posts above, I think you have mostly female friends because you are befriending women you are interested in instead of approaching them romantically - which is one of the worst ways to approach it (as, usually, once you are in the friendzone, it's hard to get out of it). Plus, you vaguely think you are inferior to them, which probably causes you to do a lot of 'pleasing' type of behaviours (reacting to what they want) - re-enforcing your low self-esteem and making you seem like an nice, but boring, guy.

So you roughly seem to have a superiority complex towards a lot of men (they're typical 'lads') and an inferiority complex towards most women. Bad combination!

I'd say the first steps to improving your self-confidence/self-esteems are:

1) Find something (hobby, sport, area of interest) you are interested in, and work at becoming good at it (but not obsessive about it).

2) Get some 'non typically ladish' male friends (possibly through above area of interest). People you can relate to as equals, not by trying to 'please' them. Then you can apply that to the women in your life

ElaElaElano

Thanks a million everyone, really appreciate those replies.

Bluewolf- I think you're probably right about taking some time out to concentrate on myself before getting into another relationship. My mistake was (albeit unintentionally) going from one long-term relationship straight into another without even time to reflect on what had gone wrong in the first one. I suppose as a stepping stone towards building more self confidence, I can take heart from the fact that there must be some redeeming qualities there to be able to have had those relationships in the first place. It's just a matter of knowing what those qualities are, so that I can approach women in the future with a mindset of 'I've got a lot to offer'. Or something like that!

Wibbs-if I think about the biggest player I know, he's essentially two people. Tells girls they're the prettiest he's ever seen, and how he knows they must be fed up of chancers with one thing on their mind, blah blah, and then ignores them once he's slept with them to move onto the next. So I suppose he understands how to 'empathise' in order to get what he wants, but either he lacks the capability to hold onto a girl once the sexual side of things is taken away, or he genuinely has no interest in pursuing it any further than sex. I've certainly never heard him use the platitudes and niceties with anyone other than girls he finds attractive, and he'd be known as a bit of a príck (although maybe that's said with some degree of subconscious envy) amongst most people.

The point you make about age is interesting too, cos both of the relationships I'm talking about have been with older women- not quite the gap you're talking about, but they were 4 and 5 years older. I don't know if that has any significance?

Cafecolour- they're really valid points and if I'm honest, puts things in a light I hadn't seen. I'd hate to think of myself as having a superiority complex towards anyone, but maybe subconsciously there's something there where I have unfair negative connotations towards men (men in family consist of physical abuser, alcoholic, serial cheater). Need to work on that.

LegacyUser

OP - This is a topic very close to my heart, I'm early-mid 30s and male.

I think we are similar though I do like my one night stands (when they happen, could try more!) and in most cases end up texting, dating or having short relationships with those girls (that most guys would run away from), out of lonliness mostly. Though they don't work out sometimes, but that's another topic.

Back to topic, I'm not so sure if the 'quiet/sensible' type are attractive to girls, even well into their 30s.

Having a bit of an edge or a wild streak will do no harm to any girls feeling towards you within reason, even the 'quiet/sensible' girl. For me, I just cannot be this guy.

From my experience, the more trustworthy, reliable, honest, sensitive and attentive (though not overly eager i.e.: pleasing/desperate) the less attractive I get.
I'm sure if I was the total opposite I would be more attractive (missing calls, refusing giving lifts, skipping dates, having loads of 'lads' friends).

Girls are used to meeting 'lads' and anyone different is just a bit strange, uncomfortable and a bit too serious for them, at any age. I have observed and experienced this for years.

It's just not fair and let's face it - it's human nature.

THEZAPPA

dodgyXXX wrote: »

Back to topic, I'm not so sure if the 'quiet/sensible' type are attractive to girls, even well into their 30s.

Not all women would be attractive to the 'quiet/sensible' type but I wouldn't rule out all women. I have a few good friends who are in very happy relationships with quiet/sensible men.

Sure these women are hard to find but that is usually because these girls don't go out to clubs and places like such as that.

Myself personally, I am attractive to these type of guys but I never go after them any more because I may look like a fool chatting up some guy who doesn't seem interested because he's shy (happened a good few times) but believe me I do try sometimes.

My advice would be to take some time out to find yourself and boost up your confidence and self esteem. It's hard being in a relationship when your confidence is low and you have nearly none to maybe zero self esteem. You end up depending on that other person and driving them away. And trust me people will take advantage of that.

As for the view on men, I get what you mean. I grew up in an abusive environment and did have a bad opinion of men for a good long time. You need to maybe look at that and realise not all guys are like that and not all guys are "lads" per say. I do agree with the advice to start up a new hobby and meet other guys with the same interests through those hobbies.

Just work on yourself and don't be worry about women for the moment. Just think about yourself.

Hope all works out for you