The Irish State and it's Society is corrupted

Inverse to the power of one!

This isn't news to any of you, but given that we are not correcting our behavior nor reforming the foundations of the state we are only doomed to carry on in a half zombie capacity along the lines of Italy wasting our potential and ability to create a state where we would be proud of for future generations to come.

I'd really like to set the tone of this thread as a positive one, We're more then capable of acknowledging the negatives, but the real question is what can we rally around as a central core/movement/ideology?

We have no faith in the existing institutions such as the Govt, Business, Unions, Legal system, So where can we turn? And more importantly where can we join in unison in a willingness to support one movement that we can put down our cynicism?

We need to reform our society as a whole and importantly as individuals! I know that a lot of the posters here wash their hands of all that has gone on, yet even if you as an individual have not partaken in the corrupt practices of this nation and society, your tolerance or inaction means that you have not done what you can to change things. We as a society are all guilty of this, while I acknowledge that Ireland has many amazing individuals who should be recognized for their achievements, but it shouldn't serve as an excuse to say that you/we/they are above all that has happened. As members of a society we share a common responsibility for the outcome of that society and it's products, If we are to progress then we must not shirk our common responsibility, avoid exceptional-ism and like individuals whose behavior has hurt themselves and those around them accept their own role in the harm that has been done.

So Ireland, we know that FG/Labor are not a turning point, we know that our legal system is failed, we know that those who brought the nation on it's knees are unrepentant, We know that the unions have more time for their bank accounts then the worker, we know that corporate governance is non-existent, and all this in light of the worst shock the nation has ever endured.

If the extreme shock of the last few months couldn't serve as a turning point what will?

Maybe we can start change with something simpler, maybe we can start by acknowledging our part in these outcomes and that in accepting our responsibility undertake a new movement to meet our real responsibility which is to stand up and work towards the future we deserve.

The real question is how do we communicate this as a universal message that all of us will join and do our part? How do we take control of our common destiny and achieve the many dreams that brought around the Irish state and her people in the first place?

As I said about keeping this positive, if your only going to come in and say this is impossible, you may be adding to the debate, but you still won't be adding value. Even if you are cynical about what I have said, then rather then say why not, say what you would do different or how you would tackle these problems.

UsernameInUse

Of course Irish society is rotten to the very core.

It's the nepotism, cronyism, corruption and bureaucracy that will never change with the current political establishment. Replacing Fianna Fail with Fine Gael and Labour is like substituting apples for apples. It's the mold these people have been created from. For us to see any real difference, we'd need to have a foreign party in control.

I myself believe that our only way forward is to embrace the freedom of the individual. Ireland has huge potential as a country to lead the way for the world in our attitudes towards society. It pains me to sit down and listen to each party "selling" something. Why do parties "sell" their policies. No one should have to sell anything - let the people decide what they want for their own lives.

That is concept all but lost in our culture.

raymon

I believe the foundation of this thread is flawed.

I refuse to accept any blame for corruption. I refuse to believe our society is corrupt.
The Irish society in general has integrity

So please speak for yourself when you accept the blame op.

I believe the root cause of all of this is the failure of the gardai and dpp to prosecute the offenders,

Inverse to the power of one!

raymon wrote: »

I believe the foundation of this thread is flawed.

I refuse to accept any blame for corruption. I refuse to believe our society is corrupt.
The Irish society in general has integrity

So please speak for yourself when you accept the blame op.

I believe the root cause of all of this is the failure of the gardai and dpp to prosecute the offenders,

Fine, yet your root cause is indicative of this:
Gardi and Dpp fail to prosecute because the tools of law required to do so are Gummed up by our lack of law reform which in turn doesn't exist because the political establishment we the people elect do more to protect their own interests because we tolerate common place corruption in our political establishment.

If memory serves me correct, the Guards have indicated frustration at their inability to prosecute, and bear in mind that includes the CAB who take it in their pride to attack white collar crime and generally have best tools at their disposal. The DPP will prosecute no matter what, but requires that they have the law on their side before they proceed, to date they have not had the ability to do so, Even if the DPP does prosecute, the defendants can just spend money that is questionably theirs on Barristers and Solicitors who if anything are the reason our justice systems is too slow and now being priced out of the ordinary citizens reach. The IMF has acknowledged this.


So you can deny your part as much as you want, but as I said:

As members of a society we share a common responsibility for the outcome of that society and it's products

So to return to what you said:

The Irish society individual in general has integrity

Bloody Nipples

http://www.reuters.com/article/interactive/idUSTRE69P0X620101026?view=small&type=domesticNews

This would suggest you're talking out your arse.

Every so often on Boards a thread is started by someone griping about Ireland as a whole. Generally these threads are ill-informed idiotic tirades with no basis in fact. This is one of those times.

Inverse to the power of one!

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/interactive/idUSTRE69P0X620101026?view=small&type=domesticNews

This would suggest you're talking out your arse.

Every so often on Boards a thread is started by someone griping about Ireland as a whole. Generally these threads are ill-informed idiotic tirades with no basis in fact. This is one of those times.

ORLY?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=2&ved=0CCwQqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fexpert-lowry-outside-process-2596288.html&ei=lBePTc_cLteqhAeiwem7Dg&usg=AFQjCNHi1zWOyqi-KdIspkYjJy9_qLmyyw&sig2=y9Yj6Mrd0xAIdXFxTu1CMg

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=4&ved=0CEYQqQIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2Fireland%2F2011%2F0326%2F1224293137902.html&ei=lBePTc_cLteqhAeiwem7Dg&usg=AFQjCNHSaWUXBxoPxGVkwUUhz5CgXvfHIw&sig2=LT4gD1Ubuf5BCXGV9mYo-Q

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Firish%2Fwhite-collar-crime-probes-reveal-states-puny-powers-2567668.html&ei=5RePTfu2Mo-DhQeGp-C7Dg&usg=AFQjCNEyE7ZkxAYwKKRerMdDuoOenayPOg&sig2=ZyFI98rlqbS0PayfAo9_ZA

- The head of Irish "bad bank" Nama, Brendan McDonagh, said
most of an estimated overhang of 60,000 acres of land zoned but
not yet developed throughout the state is "probably unsuitable"
for residential or other development.

That's before I even start trawling through boards threads.


AND FFS!!!
I am not:

griping about Ireland as a whole.

I am saying that the outcome of our society is what we should stand up and take responsibility for and help ourselves!

Generally these threads are ill-informed idiotic tirades with no basis in fact. This is one of those times.

Thanks Captain Insight, you've brought so much to the discussion.

ilovesleep

agree with raymon above.

@Inverse to the power of one

someone over at politics.ie wrote yesterday that yesterdays irish independent had an article saying that ireland does have the laws to prosecute but that they are not being used correctly. He/she wrote that what seanie fitzpatrick did would result in a 10 year prison sentence.

I do agree with your sentiments though that we are going have to identify our mistakes and learn from them

Inverse to the power of one!

ilovesleep wrote: »

He/she wrote that what seanie fitzpatrick did would result in a 10 year prison sentence.

I'm sure there's not just seanie and there's probably a few more that are more then eligible for jail time.

What I'm saying however is not just look at the individual examples, look at the outcome as a whole, over 20 years of investigations of corruption......how many prosecutions?

Our entire legal system requires an overhaul, yet there is no political motivation to do it, because we the citizens are not forcing it, and it's in the interested of the entrenched political and legal classes not to action it. Also to mention that the law as it stands let's people like Dermot Desmond take frivolous lawsuits against people who say things he doesn't like. Liability in Ireland chokes small businesses every year again part of the legal system.

In what I'm saying above, I have no interest in laying blame rather I am saying that if we don't find a way to get over ourselves and find a way to take a stand together, then we are only doomed to repeat the same cycle.

Already the same patterns of nepotism and crony-ism are starting to emerge from the new government and despite the ultimate shock of the bankruptcy of the sovereign and the following loss of sovereignty, things have not changed!

I don't want Ireland to be the Italy of the Atlantic, a half assed state going through the same old corrupt patterns time and time again only falling deeper and deeper in to debt.

I believe that Ireland can do better, I believe we have shown our abilities during the boom to get ahead and when we have confidence there are no limits to what we can do.

I want an end to our efforts being nullified because we refuse to address the root issues as to why we end up in such cyclical patterns

Am I being unreasonable in wanting this?

Bloody Nipples

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

ORLY?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=2&ved=0CCwQqQIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fexpert-lowry-outside-process-2596288.html&ei=lBePTc_cLteqhAeiwem7Dg&usg=AFQjCNHi1zWOyqi-KdIspkYjJy9_qLmyyw&sig2=y9Yj6Mrd0xAIdXFxTu1CMg

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=4&ved=0CEYQqQIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2Fireland%2F2011%2F0326%2F1224293137902.html&ei=lBePTc_cLteqhAeiwem7Dg&usg=AFQjCNHSaWUXBxoPxGVkwUUhz5CgXvfHIw&sig2=LT4gD1Ubuf5BCXGV9mYo-Q

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=news&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fbusiness%2Firish%2Fwhite-collar-crime-probes-reveal-states-puny-powers-2567668.html&ei=5RePTfu2Mo-DhQeGp-C7Dg&usg=AFQjCNEyE7ZkxAYwKKRerMdDuoOenayPOg&sig2=ZyFI98rlqbS0PayfAo9_ZA

Yes, Lowry was corrupt, that is being examined by the Gardaí and the DPP with view to a prosecution and yes, our legal process may have some shortcomings.

That's before I even start trawling through boards threads.

I'd take anything I find on Boards.ie with a pinch of salt when it comes to reliable sources of info on corruption. It's where you'd find this thread for example.

AND FFS!!!
I am not:


I am saying that the outcome of our society is what we should stand up and take responsibility for and help ourselves!


Thanks Captain Insight, you've brought so much to the discussion.

So by your reckoning the actions of a few corrupt individuals are indicative of endemic corruption in Irish society. And on top of that your myopic analysis of a few newspaper articles has you convinced you know more about this than Transparency International, a global corruption watchdog.

Ireland is not a very corrupt country

If you want to throw newspaper articles at each other:
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&sqi=2&ved=0CE4QFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Feurope%2Frussia%2F7902905%2FRussian-corruption-means-foie-gras-roads-would-be-cheaper.html&ei=2iuPTb6LBcGahQf6ztGJDA&usg=AFQjCNG1XuMyCQZcBl-71cOUbKJdGuKGKQ

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2Fworld%2F2010%2F1203%2F1224284681166.html&ei=2iuPTb6LBcGahQf6ztGJDA&usg=AFQjCNGhetXtHaw4ct58mDNNAjxQ4ak2Jw

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&sqi=2&ved=0CFkQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fobservers.france24.com%2Fcontent%2F20100819-tales-russian-corruption-transparency-international-report&ei=2iuPTb6LBcGahQf6ztGJDA&usg=AFQjCNHBrIriZO9GjVotkSc_8Pv34LTSIA

Wake up.

Bloody Nipples

And just in case you didn't get it before:
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

You live in the 14th least corrupt country in the world :rolleyes:

Inverse to the power of one!

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Yes, Lowry was corrupt, that is being examined by the Gardaí and the DPP with view to a prosecution and yes, our legal process may have some shortcomings.

A few?!?

-How many prosecutions for corruption over the states history?
-How many millions spent on Tribunals with no actionable outcome?
-How many politicians never removed from office despite been demonstrated to have partaken in corruption by said Tribunals?
-How affordable and competitive our legal system such that the IMF views it as in need of an overhaul?

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

I'd take anything I find on Boards.ie with a pinch of salt when it comes to reliable sources of info on corruption. It's where you'd find this thread for example.

Most threads are started on the basis of links from Media, this is politics not after hours, the reason I like this forum is because it has so many knowledgeable individuals. Nice try on the pointless mudsling

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

So by your reckoning the actions of a few corrupt individuals are indicative of endemic corruption in Irish society. And on top of that your myopic analysis of a few newspaper articles has you convinced you know more about this than Transparency International, a global corruption watchdog.

As this index is based on polls, the results are fully subjective and based on a reputational model, and less reliable for countries with fewer sources. Also, what is legally defined (or perceived) to be corruption, differs between jurisdictions: a political donation legal in some jurisdiction may be illegal in another;

It's called a perception index for a reason, a point that Transparency themselves are at pains to point out every year they release the index. And your calling my analysis myopic?

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Ireland is not a very corrupt country

Your welcome to your point of view, but the current state of the nation indicates far deeper issues at the root of our nation and society.

For the sake of positive engagement, what do you suggest is at the root cause of the nations current state, and what would you do to address it?

Also, I find pointing to examples of corruption in other countries the same as "two wrongs" logic, please point me to examples that show we are effectively tackling corruption.

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Wake up.

Second coffee of the morning.....I'm sure I'll get there

Inverse to the power of one!

Also Bloody Nipples, if you wish to use the transparency index as the end all and be all, then please note NZ as number two on the list. In writing most of this thread it was precisely NZ societies sense of fairness and willingness to tackle the root cause of problems in their society that has put them where they are. I assure you Ireland is in stark contrast to NZ and how things are addressed.

Also further to that, NZ had a currency crisis in 1984 that forced reform along the lines that I am advocating for Ireland. They restructured the entire civil service such that all Govt employees are hired(and made redundant) on the same basis as private sector workers. Their legal system is open and competitive. They have fired politicians for having spent 1/100th on underware what C.J. Haughty spent on French shirts!

Since 1984, the government of New Zealand has undertaken major economic restructuring, moving an agrarian economy dependent on concessionary British market access toward a more industrialised, free market economy that can compete globally. This growth has boosted real incomes, broadened and deepened the technological capabilities of the industrial sector, and contained inflationary pressures. Inflation remains among the lowest in the industrial world

NZ as a society has been very open to calling things as they are and working to address corruption head on.

Why can't we do the same?

Offy

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Why can't we do the same?

Because we are sheep.

NeedaNewName

Offy wrote: »

Because we are sheep.

Not sure about that, thought I'd agree on some levels.

Our society is still based on religion. like it or not. Our past has dictated our future based on religion and the church. This has had a huge effect on morality and right and wrong. To be simple about it, if it is not a sin then fire away. You can't go to hell for taking a bribe now can you? And sure going to confession will help your chances.

The main issue is that Ireland is too small a country, people talk about parish pump politics but it is that, even on a national level.

If you are powerful or well know enough you can be brought into court through the back door and have a few drinks with the lads in the law society and stuff.

You will never see a "perp walk" here for powerful people.