Attitude to the "haven-nots" in motorsport

Copper23

Hi all,
Long time listener, first time caller on this forum...

I wanted to talk about HRT in F1.
http://www.planetf1.com/news/18227/6834481/Kolles-gives-HRT-crew-the-thumbs-up

This article just went up, basically, the team is struggling for cash, had troubles testing at Barcelona and for other reasons weren't able to get much running done in Australia this weekend yet but are now all set for P3 in the morning.

Anyway, what struck me was the attitude of the comments. People calling them a joke, an embarrassment, pathetic, hilarious, etc....

Someone told them to bog off back to racing with his "local pathetic motor club".

Really? Is this the level of F1 fan these days?

What do peoples here think? Should HRT just go away and we'll all go back to a 10 team grid, no outsiders, only regular club members allowed....?
Or should we let the grid grow exponentially like '94... let them pre-qualify, let them build their teams from nothing which is HRT to the top like Red Bull did.

I find it a shocking attitude to amateur racers or underfunded racers in every category, be it F1 or Autocross. It's not a great attitude. I started racing many years ago myself, In my first race I started 19th on the grid and couldn't get within a sniff of the laptimes of the leaders. 3 Years later through hard work I won my first championship on a tiny budget. Many would have looked at me on day 1 and wished I just didn't even bother. But how is anyone to learn anything

Cookie_Monster

the nature of the sport these days makes it hard to easily replace them but they are an embarrassment to the sport tbh

Iron Hide

They're livery is a bit of a joke too, nothing wrong with the design or colours, but the "Cool Spot" and " You could be Here" doesn't really give the impression they'll be getting any sponsors soon.

And they're employing two of the most notorious(couldnt think of any other term!) ride-buyers in Karthikeyan and Liuzzi. On the ball with quietly withdrawing I think Ficus, they tried(not very well) and failed at F1, and by no means the worst team in its history so they've no shame to feel!

amacachi

At least they didn't take someone on for a bit of practice who crashed straightaway.
Oh wait, that's Lotus, and they can do no wrong.

Lordhumphreys

Granted, they are struggling financially, in what is, lets face it, an extremely financially driven sport. BUT, they're still there, trying their best with what they have. I'd rather see them be there, than not be there. Granted, they'll be the absolute underdogs, but we always rant and rave when the odd race happens, and the underdogs come through - remember Olivier Panis winning in Monaco in the Liegier, and Damon HIll almost winning in Hungary in the Arrows?

Top Dog

They'll be rolling chicanes (if they're allowed race) - so at least we're guaranteed more excitement and overtaking :pac:

freestyla

I m for more teams on the grid but not for dangerously slow ones, so 107% rule is welcome back

Slutmonkey57b

The problem with HRT is not that they're being treated badly as a "have not" team.

It's that they had all of last season to be cut a load of slack for being a new team under pressure doing their best with a mess handed to them by Max Mosely. The fact that Lotus had less time, and more pressure, and did a much better job than HRT made them look bad, but people accepted it.

Yet they've come into this year exactly as they did the year before - with substantially the same car (slightly different sidepods, diffuser and rear wing but that's all), and they still didn't have it manufactured in time for the first race, still don't have the parts crash tested, and again they're using Qualifying 1 session to shake down an untested car.

They had all their goodwill and excuses last year. This year they proved that their problems are 100% of their own making and they shouldn't be on the grid - because they're not good enough.

RayM

A few statistics (because I'm bored, and probably not going to get any sleep before the race)...

The 107% rule made its first appearance at the 1996 Australian Grand Prix.

In 1996, Liuzzi - With his 1m32.978s lap time - would have qualified in fourth place.

Karthikeyan (1m34.293s) would have been seventh.

Jerome d'Ambrosio's lap time (1m30.822s) would have given him pole, by a margin of 1.5 seconds.

The two Forti-Fords (remember them?), driven by Luca Badoer and Andrea Montermini both failed to qualify for Melbourne 1996.

Badoer's fastest qualifying time was 6.8 seconds away from pole.

Liuzzi, in the fastest Hispania, is 9.4 seconds shy of the 2011 pole position...

...and 2.4 seconds slower than Senna's Hispania at last year's Australian Grand Prix.

Forti went bankrupt before the end of the season.

EvilMonkey

There a waste of space in F1. They only got their slot for political reasons and not their ability to build and race a car. We could have had an ART, Lola, Prodrive teem but somehow we got these clowns.

They haven't really invested in their team, As far as i can tell were hoping to set up and get someone else to buy them.
Any sponsorship money or money they get from F1 is taking it away from a real team with ambition.

They have had a full season of grace, everyone else has pushed on but HRT are making the same mistakes.

They are too cheap to pay the FOTA fees and work with the other teems.

If you cant afford to have a car ready for the first race then you cant afford to be in F1.

F1 wouldn't miss HRT or Virgin in my opinion.

freestyla

EvilMonkey wrote: »

F1 wouldn't miss HRT or Virgin in my opinion.

Virgin is superhuge company an has enough money to hire any engineer and buy any engine and but they don't want to spend more than what is must to just run the car to chequered flag. Its more like PR to Virgin brand in overall/for daughter companies, a toy for a big boy mr Branson.. and this is not acceptable on this level of racing because we want the fastest teams and drivers because of their passion and skills!

Lordhumphreys

Agree. Virgin, with their financial history could have bought nearly any team on the grid. And even if it is a marketing exercise, its not a very good one for such a PR aware company to have its cars propping up the bottom of the grid.

ratedR

It's gotta be tough for the mechanics and personnel within the team, the guys putting in the hard work building the cars with whats been given to them. For them, I feel sorry. It's also nice to have a fuller grid, so for those reasons, I'd like HRT to stay.

However, it's hard to take them serious. As Martin Brundle put it at the weekend - "they're a waste of money and talent".

No crash tests on new parts, no testing, shakedown basically on Q1. That was fine (ish) last year, but they should have moved on by now.

As was mentioned, they're not part of FOTA, so they probably isnt much sympathy for them in the paddock. Colin Kolles seems to be a bit of a knob too. Senna and Chandhok had there run-ins with him last year.
And lastly, they have a pay driver and a driver thats doing it for free. 2 guys that wouldnt be on the grid otherwise.

AugustusMinimus

As others have said, what a waste that the likes of ART, Prodrive and Lola didn't get a place on the grid.

thegoth

HRT should just go.

IMHO what virgin are doing is worse. Their parent complany has the money. Just just want a car on the F1 grid come Sundays. They are a joke. Only good thing about them is Writh research must be learning more and more about CFD.

HRT and Virgin get out.

Hello ART and Prodrive

JimmyCrackCorn

Isn't this exactly how Lotus got into formula 1 and revolutionised the sport. (killed a load of people) Small broke shed builders taking on the Italians.

While the comparison may not be fair now considering the billions pumped into the sport, considering its history does this elitist stuff fly.

amacca

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You can do that anymore in F1, the days of a couple of guys in the back of somebody house designing and building cars is a thing of the past.

Isn't that a massive pity though...and doesn't it lead in some sense to stagnation.

the fact that there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of the talented little guy making it takes away something from the sport imo

Slutmonkey57b

No, it isn't.

The two blokes in a garage approach still works in lower formulas to an extent, which is where it is comfortable.

amacca

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

No, it isn't.

I dunno

if its all about money then I'm sure there are some drivers in the f1 paddock for purely political or sponsorship reasons depriving much more talented/gifted naturals a seat...that's surely not a good thing for the neutral

if its all about money then there's no room for all but the richest of individuals etc to get into the sport....you're cutting out swathes of not necessarily poor operations/individuals but quite successful innovative people in their own right and limiting the number of potential new teams + cars....cliques and status quos develop without some new challengers every so often

if its all about money then the eventual championship winner generally will have to put a very large percentage of their win down to the fact that they had superior machinery so in a sense the championship becomes academic and its more and more about the development/testing/fabrication/wages budget than the skill of the driver .... while I enjoy the innovation/rule bending thats a stagnating situation to me (not focused on the human skill element of it)

and while I may find the technology/engineering etc interesting and the competition in these areas, the part of f1 I love the most is the cutthroat driver rivalries, the intense competition, one upmanship........all of this becomes increasingly irrelevant the more racing budgets are allowed to take over - the more its about the money the less out and out head to head racing with lots of overtaking, battles for position the neutral spectator sees

I watched that documentary on Jackie Stewart the other night and some of the footage showed him winning a championship crossing the line on the final lap with three (I think) other cars practically side by side just behind them.......I cant ever remember that close a finish in a grand prix in the last 15/20 years I've been watching it......to me that means that at each modern day f1 race circuit there are cars there on raceday with massive advantages and its simply academic that barring horrendous driver error, bad strategy or mechanical breakdown they will cross the line light years ahead of the chasing pack - that to me is the problem with the budget deciding the winner

---

the cars just are not evenly matched enough for wheel to wheel action/more overtakes etc, not evenly matched to give the talented underdog a chance....and I though the recent changes (reduction in testing etc) were to save money and try and level the playing field somewhat.


maybe its just me and maybe im ridiculously idealistic but I would like to see a championship with more evenly matched cars where the eventual winner can put a larger percentage of their victories down to their talent etc without eliminating the constructors element (budget) entirely but reducing its influence in favor of a more exciting sport

amacachi

amacca wrote: »

Isn't that a massive pity though...and doesn't it lead in some sense to stagnation.

the fact that there isn't a snowballs chance in hell of the talented little guy making it takes away something from the sport imo

Yes it's a pity but its still true.

amacca

amacachi wrote: »

Yes it's a pity but its still true.

Yeah I know...I'm a realist too (sort of)

It would be good though if f1 wasn't as much of a precession as it seems to be sometimes....maybe they'll get there eventually?

amacachi

amacca wrote: »

Yeah I know...I'm a realist too (sort of)

It would be good though if f1 wasn't as much of a precession as it seems to be sometimes....maybe they'll get there eventually?

Formula 1 now is like Europe, it'll take chaos and collapse before anything will change.

amacca

amacachi wrote: »

Formula 1 now is like Europe, it'll take chaos and collapse before anything will change.

freestyla

amacca wrote: »

It would be good though if f1 wasn't as much of a precession...

Blame advanced aerodynamics which are made possible nowadays with those hi-tech wind tunnels and computing power of simulators. It makes fine tuning of whole car concept by filling holes left by mechanical development plus it adds some unique features to car's handling = easier to drive and more difficult to follow.

I would restrict front and rear spoiler to much more simpler design- e.g. just 1 or 2 wings which you could adjust freely. Should ban all those 10 fancy little wings combinations.

KERS and DRS should make a bit more efficient. Then teams could be given freedom to use them on every straight on the track!

Teams should deal mostly with mechanical grip thru engine, gearbox, suspension etc tuning.. also more fairly setup tuning gaps should be allowed. Then few different tires choice should be offered (like this year!) so drivers concentrate on the track profile and grip there when chasing perfect time plus overtaking is different with various tires.

freestyla

..aaand some track profiles should be reviewed and fix some corners! This one I don't get.. couldn't they design new F1 track and make some race simulations before actually building it boring?
I wouldn't approve a track if there wouldn't be certain amount of overtaking spots when the car behind you is 0.5 sec faster.

Not only overtaking spots but tracks should have also few challenging/exciting corners and chicanes (e.g. Eau rouge in SPA, r130 in Suzuka, Veedol in Nürburgring etc). It forces drivers to concetrate on driving, setup compromise needed between easy handling there and attack readiness in fights.
E.g. how about more angles in curves? Thats entertaining and challenging! Like Corkscrew at Laguna Seca

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It would really make a difference, see your last post about aerodynamics. Eau rouge is no longer the test of a "real" driver they all take it pretty much flat nowadays.

One element on each side coming from the nose at the front and a rear wing with a minimum thickness supported only in the middle by a couple of pillars from the back of the car. It might not be the most efficient way to slow the cars down but they'd look much better. :pac:

Sheeps

seeing their engine explode before they left the pits this morning made me think of this thread