Selling Homebrew beer at Framers Markets

DeniseandGeoff

Hi all,
Can anyone tell me if it would be legal to sell homebrew beer on a farmers market or what paperwork we would need ?
Thanks in advance
Geoff

wilmer mclean

No idea but would presume its illegal for anyone to sell alcohol without a license.

DeniseandGeoff

Yes, thats what we thought, but does anyone know how we could get licensed and costs involved etc ?, oh and thanks for the reply Wilmer

Martyn1989

Its illegal to sell homebrew, I would imagine to brew beer and sell it you would need the same licences as any micro/macro brewery would have, not to mention complying to all health and safety standards, you'd also need a full liquor licence to sell it.
I reckon it would be very expensive and time consuming but good luck with it!

evolving_doors

Maybe if you labelled it as bathsalts!! or garden slugkiller..

mightnt have the most appealing label though

oblivious

DeniseandGeoff wrote: »

Hi all,
Can anyone tell me if it would be legal to sell homebrew beer on a farmers market or what paperwork we would need ?
Thanks in advance
Geoff

A breweries licence all you to sell 20 liters upwards to the public

BeerNut

oblivious wrote: »

A breweries licence all you to sell 20 liters upwards to the public

There's even some doubt about that and I know pro-brewers who won't do it just in case.

DeniseandGeoff

Thanks for all the replies, looks like it will be to expensive to sort out the paperwork to make it a worthwhile venture, we will have to go with the free range meat and eggs but it may take a while for us to make our first million

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

There's even some doubt about that and I know pro-brewers who won't do it just in case.

Maybe revenue have not defined how the will they accept the 20 litres, one vessel or number of vessel that add up to 20 litres

BeerNut

Yes, I think there aren't any specific rules about it, other than the rather cryptic lines in the primary legislation:

1. A wholesale dealer's licence authorises sale at any one time to one person of liquor in the following quantities, namely:—

(a ) In the case of spirits, wine, or sweets in any quantity not less than a half-gallon; and

(b ) In the case of beer or cider in any quantity not less than two-and-a-quarter gallons;

but not in any less quantities.

(Finance (1909-10) Act 1910, as amended by the Finance Act 1946).

There's nothing about when or where you're allowed to sell it; it's not clear whether the restrictions made explicit with off licences apply here. It's just too much doubt to risk the ire of the Revenue Commissioners, I think.

Bigcheeze

BeerNut wrote: »

Yes, I think there aren't any specific rules about it, other than the rather cryptic lines in the primary legislation:
(Finance (1909-10) Act 1910, as amended by the Finance Act 1946).

There's nothing about when or where you're allowed to sell it; it's not clear whether the restrictions made explicit with off licences apply here. It's just too much doubt to risk the ire of the Revenue Commissioners, I think.

Do you know if anyone has tried engaging with Revenue on it ? i.e. "Dear Sir, I intend doing A, B and C which appears to be in compliance with Legislation X, Y, Z. Please confirm."

It would be great to be able to buy from Microbreweries.


Edit: "two and a quarter gallons" would be ~10 litres rather than 20 litres.

BeerNut

Edit: "two and a quarter gallons" would be ~10 litres rather than 20 litres.

I think oblivious is citing the unamended version of the Act, where the wording is "not less than four and-a-half gallons, or not less than two dozen reputed quart bottles;"

"Dear Sir, I intend doing A, B and C which appears to be in compliance with Legislation X, Y, Z. Please confirm."

I would say a letter like that would get a response saying "Wait there and we'll check..." and then you die of old age.

I spoke to Cuilan from White Gypsy about it a few weeks ago and he wants to get a formal lobby group together to get it changed, or at least clarified. His point is that visitors to his brewery in Templemore can buy a can of Bud in the petrol station down the road, but not any of his beer from his brewery. He reckons that even free samples for visitors are against the law.

So, the plan is to get the law amended so that any holder of a brewing licence may sell their own product -- on-trade or off -- during normal business hours.

Bigcheeze

BeerNut wrote: »

I would say a letter like that would get a response saying "Wait there and we'll check..." and then you die of old age.

Possibly but it would seem like an easier initial road to travel rather than getting legislation changed.

BeerNut

Not from the point-of-view of the industry. When you're standing on front of the judge after your door was kicked in by the Gardaí you'd want something better than a letter from a different Revenue office to a different brewer.

It's an anomaly in the law that needs fixed properly. It's less likely to get fixed properly if one individual decides to take their own shortcut, IMO.

Bigcheeze

BeerNut wrote: »

Not from the point-of-view of the industry.

Much of the on-trade was built on interpretation of the rules for uses they weren't intended.

BeerNut wrote: »

When you're standing on front of the judge after your door was kicked in by the Gardaí you'd want something better than a letter from a different Revenue office to a different brewer.

Hyperbole - Standard practice for modern Gardai is to use the door handle. A letter from Revenue and having also cleared the venture with the local Sergeant would seem like good cover.

BeerNut wrote: »

It's an anomaly in the law that needs fixed properly. It's less likely to get fixed properly if one individual decides to take their own shortcut, IMO.

I agree, but if an individual brewery wants to get something done in a resonable time frame this could be a solution.

enda1

DeniseandGeoff wrote: »

Hi all,
Can anyone tell me if it would be legal to sell homebrew beer on a farmers market or what paperwork we would need ?
Thanks in advance
Geoff

I've bought homebrew under the counter at farmer's markets. Not saying its legal, but it does happen. (Dublin at least)

noby

BeerNut wrote: »

I think oblivious is citing the unamended version of the Act, where the wording is "not less than four and-a-half gallons, or not less than two dozen reputed quart bottles;"

Really? It was my understanding, and my advice from our local revenue guy that it was 4.5Gallons, and 2.25gallons is a wholesale quantity, ie not to the public.
Open to correction, of course.

BeerNut

noby wrote: »

Really? It was my understanding, and my advice from our local revenue guy that it was 4.5Gallons, and 2.25gallons is a wholesale quantity, ie not to the public.
Open to correction, of course.

Hmmm. That's what I thought too. The only reference in Irish law to the 4.5 gallons that I could find was here in the 1946 Finance Act where it says replace them with "two-and-a-quarter gallons" when they appear in the first schedule of the 1910 Act.

Thing is, this is a wholesaler's, not a brewer's, licence it's talking about. There must be stuff about a brewer's licence elsewhere that I haven't found, or else the Revenue rules you were told aren't statutory.