Novice Category A4 Race, Advice Needed

Garret C

Guys,

Thinking of entering Novice 50k Road race this weekend. I haven't been doing any training specifically for it but I'm still reasonable fit. The race organizers reckon the race will take roughly 1hr to 1.15 to complete which sounds very fast to me but to be honest I can't really remember the difference cycling in a group makes vs solo. Can anyone give me any advise of what to expect? My usual weekly cycles range from 35k to about 70k. Last weekend I cycled 50 solo in just under 2hrs but if I'm honest it was a very leisurely pace and I could have pushed myself alot more. Just trying to figure out how far off the pace ill be.

Thanks..!

niceonetom

My €0.02:

If you don't ride regularly in a bunch at pace you shouldn't turn up to a race. It's not about speed, it's about competence and your post makes me suspect that you haven't the experience to make racing safe for yourself and those around you.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you know what you're doing. Your post doesn't give me that impression though. Usually questions about pace come from people who don't actually know how racing works and think that speed is what they have to be worried about. It's not.

There are certainly those who say, nah, just jump in - you'll learn as you go. I think that's a little irresponsible. In my opinion, clubs are where new riders should be trained up in how it's done.

Apologies if this seems a little harsh.

kennyb3

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056144822

Spokes of Glory

If you're a newby, safety comes first so before you near a bunch of (occassionally) nervous, unpredictable riders, get some experience of steady riding with a club group. After that do a few club races, couple of time-trials maybe, before you hit the open circuit.

Alternatively, if you're incredibly talented, jump straight in and lap the field in your first race. It worked for Lance Armstrong.

Garret C

niceonetom wrote: »

My €0.02:

If you don't ride regularly in a bunch at pace you shouldn't turn up to a race. It's not about speed, it's about competence and your post makes me suspect that you haven't the experience to make racing safe for yourself and those around you.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you know what you're doing. Your post doesn't give me that impression though. Usually questions about pace come from people who don't actually know how racing works and think that speed is what they have to be worried about. It's not.

There are certainly those who say, nah, just jump in - you'll learn as you go. I think that's a little irresponsible. In my opinion, clubs are where new riders should be trained up in how it's done.

Apologies if this seems a little harsh.

Completely understand where your coming from and point noted. And your right it has been ages since I've cycled in a large group at speed. So basically what your saying is it you don't cycle with a club then you shouldn't really turn up at a race. Next port of call my local cycling club

RobFowl

Tend to agree with Tom here.
A4 racing is very unpredictable . Imaging a large group of riders accelerating to 50kph then back to 30 kph repeatedly with riders cutting across you and possibly bumping into you repeatedly.
It's not so much the fitness as the skill level or experience of riding in large groups which is important.
Go out with a club spin first and get used to the feel of it.
Swords has a good spin starting at Blakes cross tomorrow am at 0830 if you're near north county Dublin..

TinyExplosions

Garret C wrote: »

Completely understand where your coming from and point noted. And your right it has been ages since I've cycled in a large group at speed. So basically what your saying is it you don't cycle with a club then you shouldn't turn up at a race?

No necessarily, just that if you're not used to / have never ridden in a bunch at speed, an open race isn't the best place to start

ROK ON

Gareth.
Presuming your doing the Ras Luimini. Interestingly the A4 race is listed as A4/Novice.
I would say that if you can ride in a group its not different from that just way way way more intense.
Presuming you are an adult and can take responsibilities for your actions then the worst that can happen is that you are involved in something where someone gets very badly hurt. Accept that, relax and get on with it.

Beware of the Limerick CC crowd. A lot of nice guys, but some guys in A4 are pure sandbaggers and shouldn't really be there.
I may do this race if I can get away from the kids for a while.

I met a few Limerick CC guys at events last year. They strike me as highly organised. I would imagine they will put on good event for novices. The fact that they market it as such suggests to me that they are catering for fellas like yourself.

In my only race I met loads of other complete noobs. Get on with it.

niceonetom

Garret C wrote: »

So basically what your saying is it you don't cycle with a club then you shouldn't turn up at a race?

Not quite, but almost.

I'm saying that (IMO) your first experience of riding in a bunch, at speed, and all the technical challenges that come with that, shouldn't be in an open race with 100+ other nervous novices. Clubs are where people are usually habituated to this environment though it could happen elsewhere.

levitronix

Experienced guys fall off as well, if you lack experience you ll propably find yourself at the back where it tends to be safer but harder to stay on

Lumen

I am reasonably qualified to comment on the safety aspect, having crashed in both my first A4 open race last year (through lack of experience of bunch riding) and my first A3 open race this year (bad skills from nine months away from racing combined with some bad luck). In between that I had 10-20 races without crashing; although I witnessed a fair amount of crashing in those races I managed to avoid it myself.

I think it's fine for people to race A4 without club racing experience since there are some clubs which don't do racing, as long as you follow a few basic precautions:

- Don't be ambitious. "5km to go, I'm actually hanging in here OK, maybe I'll go for the win" = recipe for disaster.

- Hang out the back of the bunch and give yourself some space. You really don't need to be holding wheels six inches in front of you to benefit from the pace of the group.

- Don't worry about avoiding the wind too much. Racing is supposed to be hard. If you're not challenging for the win there's really no need to conserve energy so that you can sprint for 40th place.

- Stay to the left. If you do crash, the ditch is more comfortable than the windscreen of an oncoming car, and you will most likely not cause a mass pileup.

- When you see people taking risks in front of you, create some more space for yourself.

- Try and apply the brakes early and gently when people slow up in front of you. Don't try and stay off them only to have to slam them on suddenly. Your primary responsibility is to avoid hitting the rider in front. There's no point feathering the brakes out of consideration for the riders behind if you end up not slowing down enough and clipping a wheel.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

You might want to ignore everything I say because I crashed in both my first A4 open race last year (through lack of experience of bunch riding) and my first A3 open race this year (bad skills from nine months away from racing combined with some bad luck). In between that I had 10-20 races without crashing; although I witnessed a fair amount of crashing in those races I managed to avoid it myself.

I think it's fine for people to race A4 without club racing experience since there are some clubs which don't do racing, as long as you follow a few basic precautions:

- Don't be ambitious. "5km to go, I'm actually hanging in here OK, maybe I'll go for the win" = recipe for disaster.

- Hang out the back of the bunch and give yourself some space. You really don't need to be holding wheels six inches in front of you to benefit from the pace of the group.

- Don't worry about avoiding the wind too much. Racing is supposed to be hard. If you're not challenging for the win there's really no need to conserve energy so that you can sprint for 40th place.

- Stay to the left. If you do crash, the ditch is more comfortable than the windscreen of an oncoming car, and you will most likely not cause a mass pileup.

- When you see people taking risks in front of you, create some more space for yourself.

- Try and apply the brakes early and gently when people slow up in front of you. Don't try and stay off them only to have to slam them on suddenly. Your primary responsibility is to avoid hitting the rider in front. There's no point feathering the brakes out of consideration for the riders behind if you end up not slowing down enough and clipping a wheel.

FYP :P

DirkVoodoo

levitronix wrote: »

Experienced guys fall off as well, if you lack experience you ll propably find yourself at the back where it tends to be safer but harder to stay on

As someone who has spent a lot of time at the back, I can honestly say it is the least safe to be in a race. The safest place to be is near the front.

OP, if you are:

a) comfortable riding in a bunch of riders in close proximity (a wexford rider freaked at the paddy's day race when we bumped hands, get over it)
b) capable of feathering the brakes and not jamming them on whenever someone gets too close
c) able to hold a line through a corner and not swing across the road and take someone's front wheel out

Then you should go and race. I agree with Tom, these skills are best learned when people are training and information can be passed down from the more experiences heads in a club. Going to a high stress situation like a race and not being comfortable with the basics of group riding is a recipe for disaster. Sure, you are an adult, but everyone else may not appreciate that you still have your L plates on and might need to be given a wider berth or more time to get to grips with it.

Sticking with the learner driver theme (I know, I know), sure it may be great practice to go straight onto a busy road for your first lesson, but you might feel a little better spending some time getting familiar with changing gears on a quieter road where people aren't in a hurry to get home and furiously overtake you, lights flashing and horns beeping.

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

FYP :P

Thanks. :pac:

chakattack

Also don't overlap your front wheel with someones back wheel, that's a recipe for disaster.

dare2be

Would a potential new A4 rider be better off on his/her 'old' bike rather than their new spanking €2k bike?? A lot of talk Re crashing so it would make sense until you are comfortable with the whole group riding thing?

blorg

I'd be more worried about your breaking your body than the bike to be honest. If you are comfortable with racing you should be able to do it on your good bike; if not, get some group riding experience in first. A club league is ideal but failing that some faat group training. I wouldnt make a race your first experience of fast group riding.

Ryder

Back from a 2hr spin and just saw this thread now......very tempted. Havent raced in a year and would love to give it a go.
To the OP, I raced the club league last year after a winter of group rides. Found it fine. But, you have to be used to close proximity, following wheels and a 360 check before any move. I would be inclined to advise you to do a few group rides before racing

keano007

So what a4 races are coming up then lads. I was hoping to get my first race in this weekend with the staggs Lucan gp but instead of getting the day off work I'm doing a 16 hr shift. Any good a4 races in the next few weeks that would suit a beginner a4 rider?

Ryaner

keano007 wrote: »

So what a4 races are coming up then lads. I was hoping to get my first race in this weekend with the staggs Lucan gp but instead of getting the day off work I'm doing a 16 hr shift. Any good a4 races in the next few weeks that would suit a beginner a4 rider?

There is a Dundalk race tomorrow. There is also two A4 races next weekend in Balbriggen - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193887940634171&set=o.148038341910935

8119tm

Garret C wrote: »

Completely understand where your coming from and point noted. And your right it has been ages since I've cycled in a large group at speed. So basically what your saying is it you don't cycle with a club then you shouldn't really turn up at a race. Next port of call my local cycling club

Although I agree with previous points i must say if you don’t try it how will you gain the skill needed to do other races
Some of our including myself will be taking part in a race tomorrow. For me it the first time I will take part in a race
If you’re in limerick and are looking for a club to cycle with our club meets every Sunday at pier one at 8.30am for leisure cycles check us out on http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/cycle4sickchildren

macnab

Garret C wrote: »

The race organizers reckon the race will take roughly 1hr to 1.15 to complete......

that works out at between 40kmph and 50kmph, which is 25mph to 31.25mph.
I doubt they are average A4 times, I would have thought that the winner of an A4 race would average 25mph and the rear of the field would average about 20mph.

DirkVoodoo

macnab wrote: »

that works out at between 40kmph and 50kmph, which is 25mph to 31.25mph.
I doubt they are average A4 times, I would have thought that the winner of an A4 race would average 25mph and the rear of the field would average about 20mph.

Where are you taking these numbers from? I don't think many A4 winners would be working up what could amount to a 20 minute gap in a 50km race when they cross the finish line.

A4 races seem to be in around 37 km/hr mark, like others have said the average speeds mean nothing, you will be sitting in a bunch for most of it, expending very little energy as you cruise along at those speeds. It's changes in acceleration, spotting danger and moving up through the bunch that you need. Unless you are planning a solo break from the off.

Ryaner

As Dirk said, averages don't mean much. The Lucan race today finished with an average speed of 38.7km/h for the A4. My average power however was only 220W. And today the group could have easily gone faster.
Compare that to a flat trip around North Country Dublin, 210W got me an average speed of 29km/h because I hadn't a group helping with the wind.

BTH

Ryaner wrote: »

As Dirk said, averages don't mean much. The Lucan race today finished with an average speed of 38.7km/h for the A4. My average power however was only 220W. And today the group could have easily gone faster.
Compare that to a flat trip around North Country Dublin, 210W got me an average speed of 29km/h because I hadn't a group helping with the wind.

So that was you hiding in the bunch and doing no work this morning??

Ryaner

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

So that was you hiding in the bunch and doing no work this morning??

Until the second lap it was. Punctured in my last two open races so today was meant to be just to finish. However just after the line on the second lap I ended up on the front trying a break

macnab

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Where are you taking these numbers from?

the back of my mind Dirk, pure wishful thinking. I have never raced, I have only ever googled results, which indicate that winning times are in and around the 25mph region. The 20mph would be me at the rear asking for directions LOL.

Ryder

Sign on for the race tomorrow is 0900. I have to work until 10 so wouldnt get out until 11. Is this too late to enter the a4 race?

Ryaner

Ryder wrote: »

Sign on for the race tomorrow is 0900. I have to work until 10 so wouldnt get out until 11. Is this too late to enter the a4 race?

Sign on isn't actually until 11am so you'll be fine.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056215486

Ryder

thanks. texted the organiser and they said I would be okay to sign on at 1130. anyone got an idea for more excuses.......

tawfeeredux

Ryder wrote: »

... anyone got an idea for more excuses.......

Eh,....dog ate your, eh,...race number?