a fox for a pet

Cork24

Ive seen a lot of YouTube Vid of people who have foxes as pets and only came across one person from Ireland that has one. Since Russia in the late 70 done a project and got the fox to be more friendly and notice a lot of changes in the fox itself. It made me wonder is it right to try and house a wild cub if found. And what danger does it face when it has be placed back in the wild in adult hood.

Cherry Blossom

As a child my nan adopted 2 orphaned fox cubs, they were kept in an outbuilding where the cats lived, these were farm cats that regularly caught mice and rats, human contact with the cubs was kept as little as possible. I'm not sure how she fed them after weaning etc but I imagine they just ate with the cats as they got bigger and maybe started learning to hunt from them. They started staying away from the outbuilding after a while and sometimes just came back occasionally at dinner time, I assume when they hadn't been able to catch anything themselves and after a while they stopped comming at all. Not entirely sure if this is relevant or not, but just thought I'd share

Amalgam

Cork24 wrote: »

Ive seen a lot of YouTube Vid of people who have foxes as pets and only came across one person from Ireland that has one. Since Russia in the late 70 done a project and got the fox to be more friendly and notice a lot of changes in the fox itself. It made me wonder is it right to try and house a wild cub if found. And what danger does it face when it has be placed back in the wild in adult hood.

Cork24 The National Geographic cover the selective Russian Fox breeding in this month's article. March 2011.

Stumbled across it earlier today.



http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/03/table-of-contents

Just a heads up.

Cork24

i'll get a read off this months one.

The Russians never cross breed them or nothing. but what they did was they only took the quite ones any one that showed aggression they just put back to the wild. and after about the 10 generation they saw changes to the fox, as in Colour wise, their ears were down.

They took blow from the Dogs, and notice that basically their body rush was well down to that of a wild fox.

so maybe that what happened to the Wolf we took one or two in, after about 11 generations or so the wolf started to be more family colour change etc.

but back to the point of foxes as pets. if for say you saw a cub some where would you take it in and try to domesticate the fox? and not put it back into the wild once it gets older

Cherry Blossom

Cork24 wrote: »

i'll get a read off this months one.
so maybe that what happened to the Wolf we took one or two in, after about 11 generations or so the wolf started to be more family colour change etc.

Any wolves kept in captivity have not changed at all in their nature or appearance though unless your suggesting that dogs evolved from wolves which there is no evidence to support. There are plenty of strains of wild dog, they aren't wolves and are very different.

Cork24 wrote: »

but back to the point of foxes as pets. if for say you saw a cub some where would you take it in and try to domesticate the fox? and not put it back into the wild once it gets older

Short answer, no I wouldn't, mankind has claimed enough species as their property already.

kildare.17hmr

your right not to take it in, the main reason being it would not learn the skills needed to survive in the wild and when it comes time to relese it back to the wild it would end up starving or coming around humans looking for food which could end bad for the fox. wild animals are just that and should not be treated like pets in any way.

I seen some of that documentory from russia, the foxes were wagging their tails and all it was strainge to see!

Cork24

If you did come arcoss a cub i think you should take it and care for it. A lot of people hold onto the fox even in adult hood

homerhop

Cork24 wrote: »

If you did come arcoss a cub i think you should take it and care for it. A lot of people hold onto the fox even in adult hood

A piece written by Dave Wall,Mammal Research Group,Zoology Dept.UCD.

I found a fox cub... What Do I Do?
Unless it is in immanent danger (e.g. on the road) then leave it be, the mother will be near by waiting for you to go. If it is in danger then move it to a safe place near by and leave it, the mother will find it when she returns. If you find a cub and are sure it has been orphaned (e.g. if you find the dead vixen close by or the den is in the garden and you haven't seen the vixen for a long time) then call the Urban Fox Project or the DSPCA.

Never be tempted to raise a fox yourself, they are a lot of work and the smell will decimate your circle of friends to just those with chronic nose blockages or who work in a piggery!

Cork24

The girl friends father found a dead fox before while hunting and took 2 cubs home and looked after them.

About your comment they smell when their away from their "home" the they lose that smell the cub was playing with his. dogs and they played away. When he did get older they did leave him go.
Since England placed a ban on fox hunting with hounds their has being a sense of change towards the fox. You see more and more people put food out at night to feed any fox that may pass by. Most farmers who dont own chicken don't allow hunters in their land. They think the fox is doing a good job killing rabbits and mice.

Cork24

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Any wolves kept in captivity have not changed at all in their nature or appearance though unless your suggesting that dogs evolved from wolves which there is no evidence to support. There are plenty of strains of wild dog, they aren't wolves and are very different.



Short answer, no I wouldn't, mankind has claimed enough species as their property already.

he origin of the domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) began with the domestication of the gray wolf (Canis lupus) several tens of thousands of years ago.[1][2][3] Domesticated dogs provided early humans with a guard animal, a source of food, fur, and a beast of burden. The process continues to this day, as the intentional cross-breeding of dogs continues, to create the so called "designer dogs".

the house dog is a pack dog just like a wolf, they from well in a pack..

Cherry Blossom

If you can provide a link that shows up-to-date scientific proof exists from a reliable source then by all means use it to give strength to your arguement, but dear god, please do not quote Wikipaedia at me

You should find this interesting, it even compares your fox project to the domestication of the dog.

http://darrennaish.blogspot.com/2006/10/controversial-origins-of-domestic-dog.html

Cú Giobach

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Any wolves kept in captivity have not changed at all in their nature or appearance though unless your suggesting that dogs evolved from wolves which there is no evidence to support. There are plenty of strains of wild dog, they aren't wolves and are very different.

No evidence?
It has been shown by DNA studies that the domestic dog is descended from wolves or at least a now extinct common ancestor closer to wolves than any other canid without any doubt whatsoever.
Even the most cursory google search will show you this.
Dog Wolf DNA.
Are you dismissing Robert Wayne's 1997 research?
How about this from last year.

What about this?
Quote:

The earliest remains of the domestic dog date from 10 to15 thousand years ago21; the diversity of these remains suggests multiple domestication events at different times and places. Dogs may be derived from several different ancestral gray wolf populations, and many dog breeds and wild wolf populations must be analysed in order to tease apart the genetic sources of the domestic dog gene pool. A limited mtDNA restriction fragment analysis of seven dog breeds and 26 gray wolf populations from different locations around the world has shown that the genotypes of dogs and wolves are either identical or differ by the loss or gain of only one or two restriction sites22. The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence15,22,23.

In comparrison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence14. Therefore, the molecular genetic evidence does not support theories that domestic dogs arose from jackal ancestors24. Dogs are gray wolves, despite their diversity in size and proportion; the wide variation in their adult morphology probably results from simple changes in developmental rate and timing25.

.

Cork24

Dogs, are pack animals, wolves are pack animals.

watch dogs and wolves hunt are just the same.

foxes on the other hands are like the Wild African dog they are not from the wolf family as some state.. they are not animals that work in a pack.

growing up all my life with Dog's, from big to small i notice a few things that look the same as a wolf

Chris_Heilong

Dogs are domesticated wolves, no douth about it. The Russian fox experiment showed a artifcially sped up verson of domesticaton that only took them 10 generatons, with wolves I feel it would have been alot longer but still the pysical changes that appear in the fox due in part to adrenaling hormons are simular to what we see in todays dogs.

From thousands of years the dog has evolved to better suit living with humans but it was thanks to its pack/family mentality that helpped close the deal.

Cherry Blossom

Not going to keep posting OT especially to people who haven't read the article, it just seemed approprite to the opening post to clarify that it isn't the only feasible theory. If anyone is interested enough they can start a seperate thread on the topic.

squeakyduck

My dad used to rally drive with a guy once and his girlfriend had a pet vixen, they tried to set her free several times and always came back, lived with the girl until she died. Must have been a loyal pet.

Shanao

Cork24 wrote: »

Dogs, are pack animals, wolves are pack animals.

watch dogs and wolves hunt are just the same.

foxes on the other hands are like the Wild African dog they are not from the wolf family as some state.. they are not animals that work in a pack.

growing up all my life with Dog's, from big to small i notice a few things that look the same as a wolf

Sorry but African Hunting Dogs do hunt in packs, and wouldn't survive without the pack? But they are not wolves, so therefore by that statement it cannot be proven that dogs evolved from wolves because they are pack animals.

It is widely believed that the early dogs were scavengers rather than hunters, which would put their habits closer to hyenas, which are nowhere even near related to dogs or wolves.

And I've grown up with dogs and cats, but even though my cat imitates a tiger down to a tee, I'm not about to claim that they evolved from tigers.


Back to the topic though, i would only move the cub if it was in the path of danger and rehabilitate it myself if i had to with as little contact as possible until it was strong enough to survive on its own.

We already have about eighteen animals in the house anyway, so I'm pretty sure I'd be killed if i brought a fox home:D

Cork24

i cant turn around and say what people do is wrong, if a cub was in danger with no mother, you can't blame people who would end up keeping the Animal. No1, it does not know who to hunt, Every animal have to know how to hunt and that is showing to them by their mother. onces a cubs mother is dead it's not something that comes second Nature to them.

All Humans use a knife and fork.. but we most be showing how to use it.
same goes for a foxes Hunting tool, it most first know how to use it.

So people keep them and house them. alot of them work out ok with the human,

Shanao

If that were the case, then how come every cat knows to use a litter tray and how to hunt even if they have been handreared? How is it that dogs, taken away from their mothers at eight weeks know how to hunt and scavenge without being taught? How do motherless birds know how to fly? We had a chicken who raised ducklings, they were never taught how to swim yet the instant they were introduced to a basin of water, they climbed in (freaked the poor clueless chicken out i might add)
It is in their instinct, something that we cannot override.
We do not have the instinct to use a knife and fork, but our instincts do tell us to eat.
We have already ruined so many species and we dont need to force foxes into being pets as well, even if it is for 'their own good' as we would like to put it.

Chris_Heilong

African dogs and all wild dogs such as Dingo evolved from the same wolves as your dogs. Yes a cat and a tiger have an ancestor in common but they are genetically diffrent, wolves and dogs are genetically the same. Its like saying Ireland was never a desert because we are not covered in sand today but there is loads of evedences in the layered rock to show we where just that.

Its a fact, Why would you not want to belive they developed from such a proud animal?

Shanao

African hunting dogs haven't actually evolved from wolves, while it is possible there is a relation in there somewhere, they developed from a different ancestor to wolves. Lycaon Sekowei is the most likely ancestor of the wild dogs.

I was merely saying that just because a dog acts like a wolf that doesn't count as irrefutable evidence that they must have come from wolves. Its not that i dont want to believe that dogs come from such a proud animal as you put it, I just feel that we would benefit from a lot more research into this theory.

Cú Giobach

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Not going to keep posting OT especially to people who haven't read the article, it just seemed approprite to the opening post to clarify that it isn't the only feasible theory. If anyone is interested enough they can start a seperate thread on the topic.

In fairness how do you know who read or didn't read the article?
As far as I was concerned it was big on conjecture and short on science, with a lot of "maybe's" "could's" and "might's".
He brushes over one of the most important genetic studies regarding wolves and dogs by Robert Wayne in 1997 and no mention of last years study that did (contrary to what he says) find a link between dogs and living wolf populations (ie the Middle Eastern grey wolf) only last year.

Regarding reverting to type, comparing animals that have achieved their modern domestic form (being generous) in the last few thousand years to an animal who's relationship with us can be measured in 10's of thousands of years isn't really valid.

Comparing morphological and behavioural differences between animals that have been on different evolutionary paths for 10's of thousands of years and possibly 100,000 years, one of which would be directed by humans is also a bit suspect.

Regarding the interbreeding of wolves and dogs in the wild, to a wild wolf a dog would be "abnormal" and hence a liability to the pack and the chance of it becoming a breeding alpha would be very slim indeed, no mention of this.

An interesting read but so many of the points made can be questioned, that personally I find it just that, "an interesting read" but no more.

Discodog

Well I have personally raised 4 separate fox cubs, under the guidance of a UK rescue. In these cases the cubs had to be hand reared & could never be released into the Wild. All ended up in specialist sanctuaries.

As cubs they can seem quite dog like but as they get older the wild instincts kick in & they often become very nervous. They are definitely not pets. I find the whole Russian thing dreadful given the way that Russian fur farms operate.

ISDW

I would suggest people read the Ray and Lorna Coppinger book "A new understanding of canine origin, behaviour and evolution" an excellent read.

DD, who did you used to work with? I volunteered at Secret World in Somerset for a while, really enjoyed.

Chris_Heilong

I finished reading the book, it was good and I like the bit where they used a boarder Collie as a lead dog, I always knew they would make great sled dogs as they have an infinite supply of energy. The part I dont agree with is that Wolves could not form a relationship with man, It has been documented that just one generation of wolf pups hand reared can accept humans and form a relaton with them so anything is possible.

I feel that the wolfs natural skills for survival and family with human influence led us to what we call Dog today. So it was a combined effort, we might not have became the successful species we are today had it not been for Dogs aiding us.

Discodog

ISDW wrote: »

DD, who did you used to work with? I volunteered at Secret World in Somerset for a while, really enjoyed.

St Tiggywinkles, RSPCA, The Fox Project

kildare.17hmr

Cork24 wrote: »

Dogs, are pack animals, wolves are pack animals.

watch dogs and wolves hunt are just the same.

foxes on the other hands are like the Wild African dog they are not from the wolf family as some state.. they are not animals that work in a pack.

growing up all my life with Dog's, from big to small i notice a few things that look the same as a wolf

they are definatly pack animals, the only way they survive is hunting in a pack and taking large animals, if one of the pack is injured they will stay with the cubs if there are any and the others will even bring back food for them.. Watched a very good documentory on them over christmas

Cork24 wrote: »

i cant turn around and say what people do is wrong, if a cub was in danger with no mother, you can't blame people who would end up keeping the Animal. No1, it does not know who to hunt, Every animal have to know how to hunt and that is showing to them by their mother. onces a cubs mother is dead it's not something that comes second Nature to them.

All Humans use a knife and fork.. but we most be showing how to use it.
same goes for a foxes Hunting tool, it most first know how to use it.

So people keep them and house them. alot of them work out ok with the human,

i got my dog at 8 weeks old, he started hunting on his own when he was very young and at about 3 months him and his brother killed and eat a rabbit that was in my brother in laws garden, its pure instinct and foxes will have this instinct too and alot will survive better than you think

Discodog

I know of a fox that was hand reared in a sanctuary. The only thing that she hunts is a can of Pedigree Chum !. She ignores all the other wildlife. One might argue that she would "revert" if she was hungry but she is imprinted. Specialist rescues raise fox cubs with very little human contact to avoid imprinting. Unfortunately the one's that I raised had medical issues & this was not an option.

An imprinted fox will have no fear of humans & would be in continual danger in the wild even if it could hunt for food. When cubs are reared for release it is staged. So even after release they are sometimes still fed until they become established.