Holiday Pay Docked from Wages

skerryman

Hi all, hope I'm posting this in the right place. Just a quick query for anyone out there who might be in the know. Basically, I got notified by my employer recently that they will be deducting 8% from my hourly pay which will be banked and reimbursed as holiday pay once I need to take holidays. Just wondering if they can do this as I've never come across an employer before who went about holiday pay in this way. It seems a bit odd to me and was hoping someone here could shed some light on the situation. Any advice appreciated!!

smokin ace

skerryman wrote: »

Hi all, hope I'm posting this in the right place. Just a quick query for anyone out there who might be in the know. Basically, I got notified by my employer recently that they will be deducting 8% from my hourly pay which will be banked and reimbursed as holiday pay once I need to take holidays. Just wondering if they can do this as I've never come across an employer before who went about holiday pay in this way. It seems a bit odd to me and was hoping someone here could shed some light on the situation. Any advice appreciated!!

from what i can make out from what you said is that your employer is reducing you wages to pay for your holiday pay when ever you take holidays is this the case

skerryman

smokin ace wrote: »

from what i can make out from what you said is that your employer is reducing you wages to pay for your holiday pay when ever you take holidays is this the case

Yeah that's pretty much it. I've been told the money that's docked is banked and then this is used as holiday pay when I take holiday days

smokin ace

skerryman wrote: »

Yeah that's pretty much it. I've been told the money that's docked is banked and then this is used as holiday pay when I take holiday days

if you employer is telling you this he is making you pay for your own holiday pay and that is wrong here is all the information you need about annual leave http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

skerryman

smokin ace wrote: »

if you employer is telling you this he is making you pay for your own holiday pay and that is wrong here is all the information you need about annual leave http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html

Thanks for that. It seems like to me that I'm essentially paying my own holiday pay. I was under the impression that holiday pay was worked up over the amount of hours you worked.

smokin ace

skerryman wrote: »

Thanks for that. It seems like to me that I'm essentially paying my own holiday pay. I was under the impression that holiday pay was worked up over the amount of hours you worked.

you are correct in both cases but you cant let your employer away with it as a lot of employers are using the recession as an excuse to do things like this but best of luck

skerryman

I'm pretty sure its because I was originally working 30 hours a week and was told I wasn't entitled to holiday pay. I checked it out and found out that it was not the case and got back payed for the holidays that were withheld for that year. I've been there two years meaning that I've pretty much missed out on the first years holidays that were withheld. They seemed quite reluctant to give me what was owed to me so I'm guessing their trying to cover their asses after having to fork out for the years holiday pay in one go.

wmpdd3

That's unbelievable. how is that shown on you pay slips, do you get payslips?

I'd make sure this person is paying tax for you, ring the revenue to make sure.

From here:
http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/media/Workingtimeact.pdf

Holiday pay is earned against time worked. All employees,
full-time, part-time, temporary or casual earn holiday
entitlements from the time work is commenced. The Act
provides for transitional arrangement, as follows over the
period 1997 to 1999.
1997 / 98
In 1997, depending on time worked, employees’ holiday
entitlements should be calculated by one of the following
methods:-
(a) 3 working weeks and one day in a leave year in which
the employee works at least 1,365 hours (unless it is a
leave year in which he or she changes employment).
(b)
4
/
15
of a working week per calendar month that the
employee works at least 117 hours.
(c) 6.4% of the hours an employee works in a leave year
(but subject to a maximum of 3 working weeks and
one day).
1998 / 99
(a) 3 working weeks and three days in a leave year in
which the employee works at least 1,365 hours (unless
it is a leave in which he or she changes employment).
(b)
3
/
10
of a working week per calendar month that the
employee works at lease 117 hours.
(c) 7.2% of the hours an employee works in a leave year
(but subject to a maximum of 3 working weeks and
three days).
1999 / 2000 AND YEARS FOLLOWING
(a) 4 working weeks in a leave year in which the employee
works at least 1,365 hours (unless it is a leave year in
which he or she changes employment).
(b)
1
/ 3 of a working week per calendar month that the
employee works at least 117 hours.
(c) 8% of the hours an employee works in a leave year (but
subject to a maximum of 4 working weeks).

When you worked the 30 hrs per week. You were entitled to 8 % of the total hours worked as holidays.

If you are there 3 years in total how many days have you taking off and been paid for?

If you have taken no days off, then they owe you 8% of the total on you last 2 P60s and you wages to year to date. I take it you never get overtime, if you do we need to calculate your holidays differently.

mrsbyrne

this takes the biscuit. ive never heard anything so outrageous in 7 years of employment law.:mad::mad::mad: please ring employment rights on 1890808090 dont follow any prompts stay on the line till you speak to someone. you need to get an inspector down there and pronto.:mad::mad:

skerryman

I have been working there for 2 years, I got no holiday pay for the first year. Holiday pay was payed to me for last year only because I checked it out and chased them up on it. As far as I'm led to believe I have missed out on the first years holiday pay that was withheld. Now they're pulling this thing where the 8% is taken out of my wages to cover any forthcoming holiday pay I might be claiming

skerryman

mrsbyrne wrote: »

this takes the biscuit. ive never heard anything so outrageous in 7 years of employment law.:mad::mad::mad: please ring employment rights on 1890808090 dont follow any prompts stay on the line till you speak to someone. you need to get an inspector down there and pronto.:mad::mad:

Thanks for your reply. So I'm guessing the whole taking 8% out of my wages to cover forthcoming holidays isn't above board? I was cautious of it from the start especially after the previous trouble I had over holidays with them. I'll call that number tomorrow, can I just ring and state my case and see what they say? Any idea if I'm still entitled to the holiday pay I missed out on from the first year, only chased them up on holidays last year so only got paid for that year and they haven't mentioned anything about the first year to me? (Hope that makes sense).

wmpdd3

If they audit your employer they will get him to pay you if you are entitled. Wheather they do is up to the empolyer.

Mrs OBumble

skerryman wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. So I'm guessing the whole taking 8% out of my wages to cover forthcoming holidays isn't above board? I was cautious of it from the start especially after the previous trouble I had over holidays with them.

What does your contract say about pay rate, and annual leave?

I think (but am not certain) that it's legal for employers to say "your rate is X per hour, and this includes holiday pay". So in a case where you are a long term employee, it may be justified to do what they're doing. ... of course it would have to be set out in your contract up-front, not imposed later on after you started asking pesky questions about leave

I agree with the other comments re checking with Revenue that the employer is paying your PAYE, and with Welfare re your PRSI "stamps".

Also, I'd be looking for a new job if I was you. I just can't see how the current situation can play out well for you.

mrsbyrne

JustMary wrote: »

What does your contract say about pay rate, and annual leave?

I think (but am not certain) that it's legal for employers to say "your rate is X per hour, and this includes holiday pay". So in a case where you are a long term employee, it may be justified to do what they're doing. ... of course it would have to be set out in your contract up-front, not imposed later on after you started asking pesky questions about leave

I agree with the other comments re checking with Revenue that the employer is paying your PAYE, and with Welfare re your PRSI "stamps".

Also, I'd be looking for a new job if I was you. I just can't see how the current situation can play out well for you.

justmary this is absolutely not legal. Union officials and employees worked very hard for years to ensure holiday entitlements for employees. What you are suggesting to be legal may be included in a persons contract but could not be enforced as it would be against the law
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html
the appropriate piece of legislation can viewed here.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

skerryman

mrsbyrne wrote: »

justmary this is absolutely not legal. Union officials and employees worked very hard for years to ensure holiday entitlements for employees. What you are suggesting to be legal may be included in a persons contract but could not be enforced as it would be against the law
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html
the appropriate piece of legislation can viewed here.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

I'm not actually on a contract (this was the initial reason I was given for not being entitled to holiday pay). I was given a form recently to sign saying that I agreed to the money being docked from my wages for holiday pay but haven't signed it yet cos I wanted to check it out first. Thank for all the information so far people, its good there's a few knowledgeable brains to pick on these things!

wmpdd3

JustMary wrote: »

What does your contract say about pay rate, and annual leave?

I think (but am not certain) that it's legal for employers to say "your rate is X per hour, and this includes holiday pay". So in a case where you are a long term employee, it may be justified to do what they're doing. ... of course it would have to be set out in your contract up-front, not imposed later on after you started asking pesky questions about leave

I agree with the other comments re checking with Revenue that the employer is paying your PAYE, and with Welfare re your PRSI "stamps".

Also, I'd be looking for a new job if I was you. I just can't see how the current situation can play out well for you.

I have heard of this but maybe 25 years ago, when someone only got 2 weeks hols in the summer, the money was put away for them so they'd have money for a shut down at Christmas. The working time directive 1996 and the payment of wages act 1994 did away with this.

Mrs OBumble

mrsbyrne wrote: »

justmary this is absolutely not legal. Union officials and employees worked very hard for years to ensure holiday entitlements for employees. What you are suggesting to be legal may be included in a persons contract but could not be enforced as it would be against the law
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html
the appropriate piece of legislation can viewed here.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

The Citizens Information page linked to says nothing about how a person's wage-rate is described.

I don't know what the HR jargon used in this country is, but if an employer chooses to specify a contract as what I've met elsewhere as a "total remuneration package" (ie including the cashed-up value of all rewards that the employee gets - or even doesn't get, it may include superannuation contributions and even employer PRSI), then the cash rate that the employee gets may be less than the nominal rate quoted in the contract.

Note that in the OP's case, I don't believe that this is what's happened: the employer is just trying to pull a fast one in the absence of a written contract. But it can happen. So the first thing to do in this case is ALWAYS to check the contract.

And I feel the need to give the customary warning: boards is a place for discussing issues, not giving legal advice.

mrsbyrne

JustMary wrote: »

The Citizens Information page linked to says nothing about how a person's wage-rate is described.

I don't know what the HR jargon used in this country is, but if an employer chooses to specify a contract as what I've met elsewhere as a "total remuneration package" (ie including the cashed-up value of all rewards that the employee gets - or even doesn't get, it may include superannuation contributions and even employer PRSI), then the cash rate that the employee gets may be less than the nominal rate quoted in the contract.

Note that in the OP's case, I don't believe that this is what's happened: the employer is just trying to pull a fast one in the absence of a written contract. But it can happen. So the first thing to do in this case is ALWAYS to check the contract.

And I feel the need to give the customary warning: boards is a place for discussing issues, not giving legal advice.

The OP was essentially requesting information regarding an employees right to paid holidays. Nothing to do with "a person's wage-rate". Payment of Wages Act deals with remuneration and Organisation of Working time Act holidays etc. Two seperate entities.
In this country employers can put what they like in contracts, basically, but if it is outside the law, then the contract cannot be enforced, simple as that. For example i have seen Contracts which stipulate that no redundancy payment will be paid if a redundancy situation arises, but The Redundancy Payments Acts 1967-2007 enforces statutory redundancy so it must be paid.The employee cannot be made to pay for his or her own holidays, it is against the law. Im not giving legal advice here im giving advice which is freely available on a number of websites including INOU, NERA and Citizens Information.

tricky D

skerryman wrote: »

I'm not actually on a contract (this was the initial reason I was given for not being entitled to holiday pay). I was given a form recently to sign saying that I agreed to the money being docked from my wages for holiday pay but haven't signed it yet cos I wanted to check it out first. Thank for all the information so far people, its good there's a few knowledgeable brains to pick on these things!

You are on a contract 'by practice' despite it not being written.