Unhappy with solicitor..

Scotty #

My mam passed away last November and named me as one of her executors.

We, the other executor and I, approached her solicitor, who shall remain nameless, about 3-4 weeks after the funeral (around the end of Nov') to start the process of sorting out the Will.

We went through it in detail and she said she'd contact the various financial institutions which she has done. About 5 letters in total I think.

She also sent letters to the other beneficiaries.

As expected a Grant of Probate is required. It's now near the end of March and this still has not been applied for!

Any time we try to contact the solicitor she is usually out of the office, on holidays, in court, etc and usually takes about a week of phone calls before we get in touch or before they call back.

I've asked several times for a figure on how much this is going to cost and the best I've got so far is €5000 minimum. (+VAT)

We've been trying now since Monday again to get in contact but it's the usual "off today", "...in a meeting", "will call you shortly..." and still no word.

So, we have decided we want rid.

But we are worried that we might be told we owe the €5K and we must pay or we don't get paperwork back inc original will etc.

Anyone know what the best thing to do in this situation is?

Reloc8

Scotty # wrote: »

So, we have decided we want rid.

But we are worried that we might be told we owe the €5K and we must pay or we don't get paperwork back inc original will etc.

Anyone know what the best thing to do in this situation is?

Find out.

Write stating you no longer want her to represent you and ask her to contact you to arrange to collect your file.

I have little enough doubt that you'll be sent a bill to cover the work done thus far and you may find that another solicitor won't act until you've paid that which is not unfair subject to reasonableness in what's charged and compliance with any indications made as to what would be charged.

If you find yourself in dispute with a solicitor acting for you you go to the Law Society.

Carlow52

You will have to pay to get the file and there is also the issue of them passing the file from one to another on payment of the fees and not let you see it.

However as you can self administer an estate I would just ask for it

Has the death cert issued: if it was applied for by post I gather its about 10 to 13 weeks delay

Scotty #

All I need is the original Will... It's the only paperwork they have that would stop us from proceeding with a grant of probate ourselves.

The death cert was issued back in November. We got that ourselves no problem. We've done a lot of the work ourselves. Paid all debts, funeral costs, etc.

Reloc8

A Solicitior in many circumstances is entitled to exercise a lien over client papers pending payment for work done. That said, there are many variables and factors which might affect the decision to do so.

Write to your solicitor.

Ask for the will back.

Tell them you don't want them acting.

Yours. etc.

If you are billed for work done you are almost certainly going to have to pay something. You'll have to discuss this with your solicitor. It may be possible to agree something with her. It may be that there is reason for what you perceive as a lack of progress and on this being made clear to you you may wish to retain her. I'm not saying that that is so, but illustrating that you have to have this discussion.

And if you're not satisfied, change solicitor.

But you will almost certainly have to pay for the work done and service provided thus far.

Scotty #

I've absolutely no problem paying for work done so far. None whatsoever. As long as it a reasonable amount.

We have called her office 5 times this week since Monday and each time we have been promised a call back the same day but have yet to hear from her.

She wrote to the relevant financial institutions before xmas and received replies before xmas. Last tiem we spoke she told us she would call us to arrange valuations of property for the GOP. That was 6 weeks ago (after we had to wait 3 weeks for her to return from 'leave') and we've heard nothing since.

I don't plan on going to another solicitor. €5K+ is far too much to fork out for something we can do ourselves.

JBG2011

Scotty # wrote: »

My mam passed away last November and named me as one of her executors.

We, the other executor and I, approached her solicitor, who shall remain nameless, about 3-4 weeks after the funeral (around the end of Nov') to start the process of sorting out the Will.

We went through it in detail and she said she'd contact the various financial institutions which she has done. About 5 letters in total I think.

She also sent letters to the other beneficiaries.

As expected a Grant of Probate is required. It's now near the end of March and this still has not been applied for!

Any time we try to contact the solicitor she is usually out of the office, on holidays, in court, etc and usually takes about a week of phone calls before we get in touch or before they call back.

I've asked several times for a figure on how much this is going to cost and the best I've got so far is €5000 minimum. (+VAT)

We've been trying now since Monday again to get in contact but it's the usual "off today", "...in a meeting", "will call you shortly..." and still no word.

So, we have decided we want rid.

But we are worried that we might be told we owe the €5K and we must pay or we don't get paperwork back inc original will etc.

Anyone know what the best thing to do in this situation is?

It is not unusual for an application grant of probate not to have been made at this point, even at a remove of 5 months, as often there can be various issues with the Revenue Commissioners etc which need to be sorted out. Granted, generally speaking an application for a grant should be underway at this point, but it may be the case that there are delays in the pre-grant process which are out of the control of your solicitor (for example, they may be awaiting word back from a bank and the bank isn't responding, despite numerous letters and phonecalls from the solicitor). However, if there are delays and problems which the solicitor is struggling with, she should at least explain to you what the problem is.

Administering an estate is usually a lengthy and complicated process, don't let people mislead you otherwise. You'll hear some people claim that its possible to administer an estate yourself without the help of a solicitor: while that's technically true in reality 99% of laypeople will make a complete mess of it and may make serious mistakes which could adversely affect the legal position of beneficiaries and family. Its not like doing DIY at home to save a few quid.

In general administering a dead person's estate - where a Grant of Probate is necessary - takes between 6 months to a year, and it is not unusual for it to go beyond that. This does not mean that the solicitor has put the case on the long finger, forgotten about it or off playing golf but probate can be a slow laborious process whereby the solicitor is dependent on third parties - banks, credit unions, pension funds, the Revenue Commissioners, the Probate Office - to process information and this takes time and is completely beyond the control of the solicitor. So even if you are lucky enough to get an excellent Probate solicitor chances are that it could take a year to sort everything out.

However, on the other hand, it sounds to me that your solicitor is in general practice and she's trying to juggle too much work and responsibilities at once, such as a large, demanding client base and having to attend court. This doesnt necessarily mean that she's a bad solicitor or bad person - she is in all likelihood struggling to keep everything on an even keel for only a modest return, and long drawn out work like Probate is invariably going to suffer in that environment, as she'll be out of the office a lot.

The main problem here is not necessarily the time its taking to get the work done but the lack of communication. First of all, your solicitor should have sat you down at the beginning and gave you realistic expectations of the time frame, her modus operandi of working and of how she plans to bill you. If she explained to you how long these things take and explained to you that it might not always be possible for you to reach her by phone, chances are that she wouldn't have pissed you off as much.

What you need to do is to stop ringing her as she's obviously avoiding you to a certain extent (if you rang 5 times this week already chances are the secretary is dreading hearing from you, let alone the solicitor) and instead try to arrange a face to face meeting with her. Do not door stop her as this will catch her unawares, put her on the spot and make her very defensive and even angry. Instead ask her secretary for the earliest possible appointment, even if this means having to wait two weeks to see her. If its longer than that politely and calmly tell the secretary that if you can't get to see her within a fortnight you will have no option but to take your business elsewhere. This might get the secretary to squeeze you in somehow or at least might prompt the solicitor to call you back.

When you meet the solicitor try to be calm and don't be aggressive: solicitors have to deal with aggressive people on a daily basis and it usually gets their backs up and they go into defensive mode. Be polite but assertive. Say that you are concerned that the matter is dragging on and ask for reasonable and workable assurances that the file will be brought to completion ASAP. ASAP won't mean a couple of days or even a couple of weeks: chances are that it'll take another couple of months but you need some sort of road map of where the case is going and have a reasonable expectation of when it'll finish.

Don't accept platitudes or false reassurances from the solicitor: don't be happy with what you think are unrealistic promises from them. Get her to commit to a time frame which will see the thing completed before the summer, and suggest that you make an appointment to see her again in a month to see how things are going along. In return you'll agree not to pester her with phonecalls and let her get on with the work.

Moving to another solicitor is not straightforward. For a start, you'll need to pay your current solicitor for work carried out to date. There is a good chance that your current solicitor has carried out most of the difficult leg work already and it is very likely that you will receive a significant bill. Just like tradesmen don't like finishing off each other's work, solicitors too don't like it as it can be messy and there will be a certain amount of double charging as your new solicitor will have to go through everything your existing solicitor has already done to make sure that she has done it properly. It will cost you more money in the long run to change solicitor so don't do it unless something has seriously gone astray with your current solicitor.

Changing solicitor might not actually help as the standard of client care amongst Irish solicitors is very much a mixed bag and you could end up in the same boat again, as the problems you have are certainly not unique in the profession. This does not necessarily mean that solicitors are all inherently bad at their job or bad people - although a disturbingly large percentage are - its more of a case of an imperfect legal system, poor public services (the turn around time for paperwork to come back to a solicitor in Ireland from the public service is frankly ridiculous), a disasterous banking system and a flawed working culture whereby most solicitors are bad at time management and poor at communicating with their clients, particularly at the start of the relationship where it is imperative that a solicitor sets the standards of the client's expectations.

If you are changing solicitor do not go to a v. small practice where the solicitor does a lot of court work as chances are you'll have a similar experience again. Instead go to a slightly larger firm where there is a solicitor (or even para legal) who devotes practically all of their time to Probate work. Like anything, it is worth paying good money for the right person.

Scotty #

Thank you for the time and effort you put into that post JBG. I'll be taking it on board.

We have been in contact and have resolved some of the issues. We'll see how it goes over the next few weeks.

dazza21ie

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/16c93c36d3635d5180256e3f003a4580/ebc43cd7adfbc3798025781f003f0da2?OpenDocument

The above notice may be of some interest to you if you are thinking about doing a personal application.

Scotty #

Scotty # wrote: »

We have been in contact and have resolved some of the issues. We'll see how it goes over the next few weeks.

OK, so...

We had our meeting on the 18th April and we were told that we were waiting for one more reply and then we were ready to apply for GOP. We also (don't laugh) paid €1210 towards cost.

Another month passed and we didn't hear anything so on Tues. 17th May I rang and was told she was on a call and would phone me straight back. She didn't. I rang the next day - out of office. I rang on the Friday - won't be back til Monday afternoon. I rang Monday afternoon (4.55pm) - she's gone home for the day. Tuesday 24th of May and I actually get a call from her office... "XXXXX is aware you are looking to speak to her and is just in a meeting this morning and will call you this afternoon. Today is 18th of June and still no call. On Thursday 9th of June I posted her a letter expressing how appalling I thought the service she was providing was and to date have not had a reply.

She did send all the beneficiaries (my siblings & I) a letter around the 24th of May with some figures about previous gifts etc but these figures were wrong. This is the second time she has sent us correspondence containing errors.

At this stage she has written to 4-5 financial institutions, 6 benefactors, and had a property valued. That's taken 7 months and probate has still not been applied for.

What is my best course of action now? All I want is the original Will. I was thinking of sending a letter to her seniors or should I just call in and ask for the file?

I'm finding it hard to believe a solicitor would expect me to pay €5000+extras+vat for this kind of service.