The Fortress Fallacy

Grizzly 45

Fortress have been the dumbest invention in the history of warfare
Gen George Patton

And he had a very good point.As eventually most if not all fortresses fell thru betryl,starvation and/or diseases or a combo of all three.Certainly alot were taken by sheer weight of numbers and seige machinery,but the point is,if there are thousands of zombies shuffling around your fortress,how long will it be before your supplies run out or the ammo runs out or a virulent form of flu or maybe just good old thyphus or cholera carries you off?? [Should be rife with all the really dead unburied bodies lying around]
So you will sally forth and raid for supplies??Unless you have a couple of 60 ton MBTin your fortress,I dont think you wil get far,and eventually I think the sheer weight of Zs hanging on the tank will stop it eventually.
Now what your APC,Mad Max mobile,or whatever is stuck with the undead clinging to it with your raiding party trapped in there.
What condition is your fortress in?
Looking at some of our historic forts,while certainly impervious to attack by artillery or difficult to get into.They dont look very comfy to live in.In fact the living quaters are utter ruins!! And TBH it is doubtful that the Z's are going to roll up a bunch of Howitzers and start shelling you,so do you really need8ft thick concrete or stone ,that is wet,damp andfreezing cold to live in?

You ARE going to need some creature comforts to live in and try to lead a normal life after Z day.After all,you are not going to be able to keep up a shooting/hacking spree for ever as your ammo is going to become a VERY precious commodity after awhile.Remember,unless you know how to reload ammo,[which is illegal in Ireland] and pick up your brass after a shootout[pretty difficult with thousands ofZs coming at you].Every shot will have to count.

How many people do you need to properly man your fortress??
These puppies no matter what are BIG bits of real estate.Figure out how big was the garrision that was needed to actually man this place when it was operational,then proably DOUBLE it for ancillary personel.IE people who did the fixing,painting,making ,cooking,stone work repair etc.
Some of our small forts here had over 500 personel with maybe 250 actual fighting men!!
That is going to have to be considerd as well,how many of your group will be able to fight off Z's after a day of possibly digging a latrine pit,tending the garden[if you have one],fixing the vechicles,foraging for supplies,pulling sentry duty,and cooking detail in shifts for work details or quick response teams,and,and ,and just to keep the fortress running on skeleton,literally personel.Even using machinery for certain jobs like digging or cleaning out defensive ditches ,etc.there is just so much a human can do within 24 hours or how much knowledge anyone can have on any subject.

Point is quit thinking of holding ground!!No matter how hard you try,you will NOT be able to hold or hole up in some of the suggested places.you dont know what kind of Z's you will be dealing with..shufflers,or 28 days later "speedy Z's" types. Unless for some reason you meet up with an army unit of at least battalion strength that isnt infected,or happen upon a village with an unaffected pouplation that is easily defended.Holding a retreat,fortress, or whatever is a total fallacy.

Personally,my solution would be so long as the fuel holds up is to put together mobile convoys of trucks and 4WDs that have the possibility of getting out of trouble fast,and have the ability and firepower to punch thru any big gathering of Zs in a hurry,using two way comms and possibly air support,via micro light aircraft,that can land on straight streches of road,and be towed when not in use.You would be able to scout out towns and villages for Z infestations,and avoid the bigger congregations.
If you have to stop somplace,"Circling the wagons" would create your self contained mobile fortress of modified 40ft artic trucks,that can get the Hell out of an area alot quicker than Z's can run. A couple of 40ft trailers could be knocked together to be pretty comfortable living quaters,small workshops,sick bay etc with less effort than is imagined.
One trucks diesel engine with a proper generator alternator could provide the group with electric power thats needed for lights,and whatever else requires power.
Not that you would be driving willy nilly all over the countryside either every day.Fuel will become more precious than gold as will ammo.
The idea is possibly find somplace with little or no Z infections,and settle down,if however it gets that there are more Z's showing up.Maybe it is time to move on again.Wagons Roll!!!Avoidance rather than firefights against overwhelming odds is what is at stake here.
Picture it as a semi nomadic, road warrior, wagon train traveller existance.
So instead of looking where there are old fortresses,I'd be looking for where are regional fuel depots,and truck maintence facilities,and consider doing a HGV liscense.

SmileyPaul

nice post and a very interesting read. I think what a lot of us have planned is very different to what you have described, I for one am planning on hauling ass to the middle of nowhere, like you said, and holding up in farm country (I know a quite plot of just over 2 acres already farmed to keep about 5 people living off it a year.
I plan on making several layers of barricades miles out from my base that way if Z's are being attracted to 1 part it's fine because it wont be as much as a huge number as it would be if they were all pooling around 1 small entrance, I do plan on having escape routes and from there I do have a secondary location to head towards, but because of it's location and Irelands low density country sideI should be ok for the most part.

I think it would be a bit silly to try and take a medievil fort to hole up for the apocalypse unless of course there are tunnels to escape or bring goods through :P

oh and you may call us crazy, but I find it strange to think you are going to be able to find approximately.... 8 articulated lorry drivers, and anyone else you need (probably about 20 people) to volunteer to drive around the country with you. and anyone who owns or can use a helicopter will have attempted to do so out of the country by now and most likely be safe or dead :P they would not want to chill out around the country with you guys.what would you do about other survivors? people aren't going to be nice anymore and if you do manage to survive over a year renegade gangs will have started forming and you'll just look like a big target. also I don't see what you're going to be doing for fresh water all the time? or more importantly a lifetime supply of fuel for trucks and ehem.... a helicopter.

you seem like a smart dude. but things don't work out how we want them to ever.

its why sometimes it doesn't look like amy of us have full proof plans, we know when the day comes. we're gonna be wingin it, just like the rest of the world. the only difference is... we're already the hunters

Grizzly 45

SmileyPaul wrote: »

oh and you may call us crazy, but I find it strange to think you are going to be able to find approximately.... 8 articulated lorry drivers, and anyone else you need (probably about 20 people) to volunteer to drive around the country with you. and anyone who owns or can use a helicopter will have attempted to do so out of the country by now and most likely be safe or dead :P they would not want to chill out around the country with you guys.what would you do about other survivors? people aren't going to be nice anymore and if you do manage to survive over a year renegade gangs will have started forming and you'll just look like a big target. also I don't see what you're going to be doing for fresh water all the time? or more importantly a lifetime supply of fuel for trucks and ehem.... a helicopter.

you seem like a smart dude. but things don't work out how we want them to ever.

I was painting this in the broadest possible brush stoke pictures.Very true you never get what you want in this life,pre or post Z day.
This would be ideal terms.Dont know where you got the idea of a Chopper! I said MICROlight.They are remarkably easy to maintain,in fact if you can worke on a bike engine or lawnmower you are near enough qualified ro work on them.Despite the over kill on regulation of flying them now here.They fold up and in some cases are road towable.
Anyone can learn pretty quickly to fly one,in fact in the US under a certain weight and HP they are non liscense aircraft I am/was a private pilot,and thes things are easier and simpler than a Cessna to fly.Ok,you cant drive an artic.But you can certainly drive a rigid if you can drive a car.Whats to stop you from learning to drive an Artic or A JCB or a D10 Caterpillar??[might be very handy for burying the really dead and undead]

Just for an example I already have a group of six people that ill call if Z day happens.They can all drive,anything from a motor bike to an artic,are cross trained in mechanics,firearms,gardening,and serious home repair,one is a qualified nurse,the other is a ex US Marine force RECON,of recent vintage[Iraq].What I am saying is prepare now and cross train your group to be able to shove off at any given time,or situation.

On joining,well thats up to people themselves,but somhow I think a well run convoy with proper disipline and efficently run,along military lines,MIGHT be a better option than freezing and starving to death in a fort somplace,and belive me it will have to be for the group to survive..That means patrols being out at all times,scouting parties,foraging parties,etc,will be well able to deal with or detect renegade groups and be able to divert or even destroy any threat to the main convoy.

Prize example of a dumb ass situation was the walking dead episode four.
Everyone is sitting around a campfire having dinner at night and the Zs shuffle into the place and chow down on three chacters.WTF!!!:mad:
Why wasnt there a patrol out with a proper tripwire system??[Which they had in another episode ] The vechicles and campsite is all over the shop.With no defensive or GTFO arrangement they DESERVE to be eaten.
Would think two deputies even if they are from Hicksville would be using their LEO training to set up abit better.

Fresh water,not as difficult as you imagine.Get plenty of it here,called Rain!Now unless it is contaminated by possibly radiation from a nuke plant not shutting down properly somwhere and blowing its top[ ala Japan],or a chemical plant exploding,but pretty unlikely as our prevailing winds are West to South West,most crud shouldnt reach us,and if it is in the stratosphere ,it is so minute.It can be easily filterd and purified.In fact if you are preparing to survive you should know how to make a improvised water filter???As you will spend more time in this life drinking water than doing off hand pistol shots at 50 meters. The most problem I see ifs fresh veggies and stuff we need to stay healthy.Possibly a bartering system could be arranged with folks who are going to stay put like yourself?I'll reload ammo or fix guns for your apples or hog type thing.Or we provide a Z "cleaning service "for five miles around your retreat twice a year for a quater of your crop.

BTW five people managing two acres??You might want to consider getting at least five more,as you will be fully occupied with tilling the soil and doing all the other jobs of life,you will need another five for defensive duties.

its why sometimes it doesn't look like amy of us have full proof plans, we know when the day comes. we're gonna be wingin it, just like the rest of the world. the only difference is... we're already the hunters

Very true,but Im not planning on hunting anything!!I'm planning on being out of the way andto GTFO of the way of anything that might fancy chomping on my ass !!:D

SmileyPaul

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

SmileyPaul wrote: »

I was painting this in the broadest possible brush stoke pictures.

I still find under the perfect conditions all sorts of things would go wrong, you seem to have a nice small group of well trained people, but what about there mentality? this isn't just going to be like iraq (didn't mean that to come across as demeaning as it sounded) but we are talking about walking corpses who don't go down after a burst of body shots.
when Z day comes you will only be able to rely on yourself. you may find many of your members will just switch off completely not being able to handle whats happening.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This would be ideal terms.Dont know where you got the idea of a Chopper! I said MICROlight.They are remarkably easy to maintain,in fact if you can worke on a bike engine or lawnmower you are near enough qualified ro work on them.Despite the over kill on regulation of flying them now here.They fold up and in some cases are road towable.
Anyone can learn pretty quickly to fly one,in fact in the US under a certain weight and HP they are non liscense aircraft I am/was a private pilot,and thes things are easier and simpler than a Cessna to fly.

Most of this went over my head but not out of ignorance, just its really not my area of expertise.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok,you cant drive an artic.But you can certainly drive a rigid if you can drive a car.Whats to stop you from learning to drive an Artic or A JCB or a D10 Caterpillar??[might be very handy for burying the really dead and undead]

now you're completely right here, but when will you find the time at the beginning of a zombie apocalypse to teach someone to drive one of these from scratch, regardless of whether or not they're easy to use. the place will be in a state of bedlem and you WILL have to hole up for a period of time until things die down, unless you already have your convoy set upand prepped to move out within a moments notice.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

On joining,well thats up to people themselves,but somhow I think a well run convoy with proper disipline and efficently run,along military lines,MIGHT be a better option than freezing and starving to death in a fort somplace,and belive me it will have to be for the group to survive..That means patrols being out at all times,scouting parties,foraging parties,etc,will be well able to deal with or detect renegade groups and be able to divert or even destroy any threat to the main convoy.

what happens when people start getting annoyed with the leader of the group, he may be a leader but... what if theres another leader in the group? 20 people will NOT be able to live peacefully forever, things will happen, rifts will emerge and eventually something will happen to end the peace.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The most problem I see ifs fresh veggies and stuff we need to stay healthy.Possibly a bartering system could be arranged with folks who are going to stay put like yourself?I'll reload ammo or fix guns for your apples or hog type thing.Or we provide a Z "cleaning service "for five miles around your retreat twice a year for a quater of your crop.

you'd be talking about maybe 2 years down the line before trust in people outside miniture groups starts returning. and maybe a bit longer before any sort of a trade route could come into play :P

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BTW five people managing two acres??You might want to consider getting at least five more,as you will be fully occupied with tilling the soil and doing all the other jobs of life,you will need another five for defensive duties.

blergh :P I don't know the ins and outs of this shtuff, I'm only a 20 year old student XD

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Very true,but Im not planning on hunting anything!!I'm planning on being out of the way andto GTFO of the way of anything that might fancy chomping on my ass !!:D

ah you've gotta love a bit of hunting, keep yourself amused

smegmar

I really enjoyed reading this thread. I always thought the possibility of rolling convoy was unrealistic but explained in that way it seems a lot more plausible.
Thank you Grizzly, see you on the road!

Grizzly 45

I

still find under the perfect conditions all sorts of things would go wrong, you seem to have a nice small group of well trained people, but what about there mentality? this isn't just going to be like iraq (didn't mean that to come across as demeaning as it sounded) but we are talking about walking corpses who don't go down after a burst of body shots.
when Z day comes you will only be able to rely on yourself. you may find many of your members will just switch off completely not being able to handle whats happening.

Thanks,of course any and everything can and will go wrong within the first five minutes of engagement[Murphys 5th law of combat.]Their mentality,very cool and experianced and pretty unflappable about most anything life could throw at them.Having been the seen it done it thru alot of life,and I'm talking of folks who are a tad bit older than yourself,not meant dispragingily either,but I dont think a few dead people are really going to bother them TOO much.One of them was in a previous life a mortican! So I could see him trying to capture one as a pet for experimentation!!:eek::D:D:D


Most of this went over my head but not out of ignorance, just its really not my area of expertise.

now you're completely right here, but when will you find the time at the beginning of a zombie apocalypse to teach someone to drive one of these from scratch, regardless of whether or not they're easy to use. the place will be in a state of bedlem and you WILL have to hole up for a period of time until things die down, unless you already have your convoy set upand prepped to move out within a moments notice.

Why not learn BEFORE you might need this,or any skill??:D
Switch off the PC,head down to a trucking depot,and ask if you could trade some of your time doing odd jobs around the place ,for one of the lads to show you how to drive,and set up a rig,as you are thinking of" becoming a trucker" and want to see if it is for you.Be surprised how much you can pick up for free with a little enthausism,politeness and keeping ears open and gob shut when brain isnt functioning.:D
moving out at a moments notice...Have you got a" bug out bag " ready yourself??IOW a rucksack or carrierbag with all the basic eseentials to survive at least a week to ten days be it any major disaster.google it,anyone smart should have these in the closet under the stairs or wherever handy to get out of an area in a pending or post disaster.
The more upmarket version is a bugout vechicle.This is usually a 4x4 dictated by how much you can plough into the project,but for us of linmited means it will be whatever we are driving.
So here is an exercise,Give yourself one hour to put what you think will be the most useful things in a Z or disaster situation, in whatever mode of transport you have.You have to pack it and be ready to roll in 60 mins.Be surprised how much **** you put in thats unnecessary.:D

what happens when people start getting annoyed with the leader of the group, he may be a leader but... what if theres another leader in the group? 20 people will NOT be able to live peacefully forever, things will happen, rifts will emerge and eventually something will happen to end the peace.

Good question on psychology and human group dynamics:)
Depends on a lot of factors,is it because somone who fancies themselves as leader is just a lazy SOB who wouldnt scratch his ass if he was sitting in a nettle clump?Or is it because the leader is an incompetant idiot?[hardly likely if he has kept a group together and got it to its refuge or whatever] or is a total autocrat and people are on the verge of mutiny??
A good example would be Capt Bligh of the mutinity on the bounty fame.
A total miserable autocrat who was overbearing in punishment,but when he was stuck in the longboat with the loyal crew,because of his iron disipline they sailed somthing like 1500 sea miles and survived it to tell the tale.
A good leader will know how to command himself first,and then he will know how to command others.He should never shirk from leading from the front,andnot order somone to do somthing he himself would not do willingly.EG suppose you had whatever usless previous CNUT from the political arena in charge of your group..Say..Brian Cowen,how do you think the leadership would be there??Betcha ol fatty Cowen wont be the first to bust down doors to a possible Z nest??But he would be the first to demand his "rightful share " of everything that you might risk your ass to get .How long would it be before you and the group have him staked down for Z bait on the road??:D.On the opposite side ,say you had a ..Ernst Shakelton leading your group..A person who while expects his orders to be followed,did not shirk from going first,looking out for his men first,made sure they were fed first,second and last.Because as a leader he realised his responsibility is to the people under him not to himself.
IOW,if they are competant,realise what leadership entails,[a duty not a privilige!]they will never have to fear malcontents,and anyone bitching too much will be told by people in the group to put or shut up.
Its a field in itself and an endless study.

you'd be talking about maybe 2 years down the line before trust in people outside miniture groups starts returning. and maybe a bit longer before any sort of a trade route could come into play

Be surprised at that actually..most people post any major disaster will actually welcome some form of order or assistance and a prospect of normality.Especially if they have a common enemy..Blitz spirit and all that.

blergh :P I don't know the ins and outs of this shtuff, I'm only a 20 year old student XD

Ok,we 'll make an exception on this ..I'm an old cnut of double your age!!
Who has been seen and done a few intresting bits in life.:D:D

ah you've gotta love a bit of hunting, keep yourself amused

Sure do hunt,but rather tastier things like deer and game.Dont think zombies are going to be particullary tasty:eek::D

Grizzly 45

smegmar wrote: »

I really enjoyed reading this thread. I always thought the possibility of rolling convoy was unrealistic but explained in that way it seems a lot more plausible.
Thank you Grizzly, see you on the road!

No probs ...Courtsey of Route Irish motorclub,Bagdad!!!;)

ScumLord

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As eventually most if not all fortresses fell thru betryl,starvation and/or diseases or a combo of all three.Certainly alot were taken by sheer weight of numbers and seige machinery,

He's really just described success of fortresses there. It took something extraordinary to defeat them. Most of their pitfall don't apply do zombie defence.

but the point is,if there are thousands of zombies shuffling around your fortress,

Only place this can happen is in cities, cities are no go areas as far as I'm concerned.

That guy is living in Hollywood land, he's describing a very labour intensive lifestyle that puts him at greater risk and is foregoing the greatest advantage of being human, that is working with other humans.

As long as your fort (which won't be a fort as he's describing because they don't exist any more) has a few exits and a good patrol it's much safer than running around the countryside on your own.

Amhran Nua

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Personally,my solution would be so long as the fuel holds up is to put together mobile convoys of trucks and 4WDs that have the possibility of getting out of trouble fast,and have the ability and firepower to punch thru any big gathering of Zs in a hurry,using two way comms and possibly air support,via micro light aircraft,that can land on straight streches of road,and be towed when not in use.

There aren't a lot of good roads in Ireland though. You won't get a truck down the boreens that comprise many of our roadways, and the motorways will be clogged with vehicles. Likewise in any village or town you're likely to run into roadblocks, artifical or otherwise, and you can't go too far in any direction without hitting a settlement, unless you're in the wesht.

And if you stop to clear the road, you're very exposed.

Depending on how bad a z problem would be, there are no really good options for mobility except air, too many cars on pre industrial road networks. 4WD is basically useless in a country with walls or hedges every hundred feet. Anything with wheels needs a road under it, and so would be useful in the very early stages only.

Also, the problem you mentioned with clingons also applies to a convoy idea.

On farming, spuds are the easiest maintenance crop in the universe, and also double as an almost perfect superfood, providing almost everything you need to survive, and a far heavier yield than almost anything else. If you can supplement that with some milk and/or eggs, you're set. Back in the old days, a family of four could live on an acre easily enough. You need to prepare a simple mixture to fend off blight though. Shovel on some seaweed for nitrate fertiliser, and sorted. Plus, if you're that close to the sea, you get fish and shellfish as well.

Cork boy 55

A fortress which has access to the sea in a rural area is the way to go.

The sea offers food and an escape route.

There are four examples in county cork
see post #173 and post #179 of this thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055477639&page=12

Grizzly 45

He's really just described success of fortresses there. It took something extraordinary to defeat them. Most of their pitfall don't apply do zombie defence.

Ok,tell us alll about this when you cant leave your fortress,are low on ammo, are down to the last packet of crisps and pot noodles,and are considering drinking your own piss as the Zs are 20 deep outside your one and only escape route and gathering more and more. Called Siege,they dont have to do anything just stand there,you have to still feed and drink to stay alive.

Only place this can happen is in cities, cities are no go areas as far as I'm concerned.

That guy is living in Hollywood land, he's describing a very labour intensive lifestyle that puts him at greater risk and is foregoing the greatest advantage of being human, that is working with other humans.

Really????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Do you know me personally??Have you GOT any actual military /survival experiance??Because if you did ,you sure would NOT be thinking of trying to hold ground with a small bunch of untrained people... This applies toeven a small area or a estate.

Maybe,if you actually read up abit on military history,you would find that many forts were abandoned thoughout history,because they cost too much to maintain in both manpower and money!!!
The only people who can turn a vast tract of real estate into a fortress is Switzerland.As they have the money,manpower and facilities to do this as well as a plan and standing army to defend themselves.But even they say it is pointless having a fortress unless you can operate,maintain and defend it.
So now YOU want to defend and build a fortress somwhere with a bunch of disprate,desperate people ,who have no idea of firearms,defence,patroling,food procurement ,etc,and are proably worried sick about their fammlies,loved ones,friends etc,and you are going to make this work and build a fortress too???Lots of luck!!!
Hollywood ....rightttt on !!!




So again how many hundreds are you going to get into your fort or commune or whatever.How are you going to grow your crops,rig up power,tend to the injured,fix and maintain equipment,forage and do all the other stuff


As long as your fort (which won't be a fort as he's describing because they don't exist any more) has a few exits and a good patrol it's much safer than running around the countryside on your own.[/QUOTE]

Well,maybe you should read your threads here about the M50 defence plans,Magazine,fort,Charlesfort,Martello tower fort,Trinity college fort,:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Need I say more??? And who said running around the country on your own??You WILL DIE if you stay put trying to defend real estate!! It is the most common law of a small force fighting a larger force.Dont stay in one area or situation where you will be trapped! This wont be some numb nuts shoot it up Xbox game,if it happens. Your job is to stay alive with your people,not duke it out with thousands of Zs...Havent you watched the movies??All the forts get overrun in the end..So why put yourself in one in the first place???

:mad:BTW I do have a NAME... Have the common courtsey to maybe use it here???

Grizzly 45

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There aren't a lot of good roads in Ireland though. You won't get a truck down the boreens that comprise many of our roadways, and the motorways will be clogged with vehicles

Hmm,we seem to manage pretty well with what we have to move 40fts,and rigids on our roads. Wrecking trucks and 10ton winches arent unknown here either.Highway system is pretty good now as well,with bypasses and ring roads to avoid major towns if need be.

.

Likewise in any village or town you're likely to run into roadblocks, artifical or otherwise, and you can't go too far in any direction without hitting a settlement, unless you're in the wesht.

And ???Point being??Go and have a scout unit out to check the route ahead for wrecks,barricades,friendly or unfriendly natives,and Zs.Whole concept of trying to get air surveillance is you can scout ahead alot further. If you dont have it a fast scout unit on dirt bikes and a stripped down 4wd with radio comms would be just as good.

And if you stop to clear the road, you're very exposed.

To what exactly??You dont move the convoy into a potential ambush situation until it has been scouted and secured as much as possible.Move up your wrecker crew to clear obstacles and proceed .Move the main convoy up then continue.

Depending on how bad a z problem would be, there are no really good options for mobility except air, too many cars on pre industrial road networks. 4WD is basically useless in a country with walls or hedges every hundred feet. Anything with wheels needs a road under it, and so would be useful in the very early stages only.

Ok whatever...Better tell a bunch of people that their 4wds and all their off road driving techniques are useless then!:rolleyes: Hmmm,JCBs to punch holes in these hedges and ditches perhaps if really extreme??

Also, the problem you mentioned with clingons also applies to a convoy idea.

Not if you GTFO of the area very quickly..Which is the whole concept of being mobile in the first place ,to shift at the first sign of trouble.Not to stand there and die heroiclly shooting it out.If that many Zs wander into your campsite,somthing has gone wrong very badly.

[

QUOTE]On farming, spuds are the easiest maintenance crop in the universe, and also double as an almost perfect superfood, providing almost everything you need to survive, and a far heavier yield than almost anything elseIf you can supplement that with some milk and/or eggs, you're set.

If you want to die of boredom in your diet that is!! And you are going to need more vitamins and suplements to function properly.God help you too if a more virulent form of blight hits your crop.Zs and a rerun of Black 47:eek:

Back in the old days, a family of four could live on an acre easily enough. You need to prepare a simple mixture to fend off blight though. Shovel on some seaweed for nitrate fertiliser, and sorted. Plus, if you're that close to the sea, you get fish and shellfish as well.

Thanks for the lesson on spud growing 101!!:) I just happen to have a degree in Agriculture and grew up on a farm.So there is nothing to stop you planting a crop around the countryside and passing by an area checking it out for how it is getting on,once every six weeks.You can grow them in barrells..Easier to move and takes alot less maintence,not to mind land.Mixture is bluestone,but pray tell,how many places will have this,for how long??And how will you shift it say,from a secured compound that has a chemist maybe to your small holding wherever if there is no road transport??
Convoys can deliver it..As a matter of fact the convoy system will proably the only viable means of shifting people ,produce,and manpower to relive the beleaugerd fortresses.

Amhran Nua

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmm,we seem to manage pretty well with what we have to move 40fts,and rigids on our roads. Wrecking trucks and 10ton winches arent unknown here either.Highway system is pretty good now as well,with bypasses and ring roads to avoid major towns if need be.

Perhaps in the US, but seriously, most roads off the main ones in Ireland you'd be hard pushed to get a car down single file, with stone walls, ditches or dense hedges on either side. If you run into something coming at you, one party needs to back up until there is room to maneuver. Trucks have no chance on 90% of the Irish road network.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And ???Point being??Go and have a scout unit out to check the route ahead for wrecks,barricades,friendly or unfriendly natives,and Zs.Whole concept of trying to get air surveillance is you can scout ahead alot further. If you dont have it a fast scout unit on dirt bikes and a stripped down 4wd with radio comms would be just as good.

I see what you're saying, but there are rarely alternative routes suitable for heavy vehicles here. If you do spot a blockage, say six cars overturned, you are probably going to have to sally up and deal with them. On a motorway there might be tens of thousands of cars. Aerial surveillance is ideal, but microlites aren't combat drones - heavy weather, wind, snow, rain of which we have an ample supply here, any of this will put them out of action.

Likewise you'd usually deploy something like that well away from population centres - however you'd never know you were near one until you came across it around a bend. The alternative is near constant flying which isn't really an option.

What you're saying might work well in the US, but here, not so much.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

To what exactly??You dont move the convoy into a potential ambush situation until it has been scouted and secured as much as possible.Move up your wrecker crew to clear obstacles and proceed .Move the main convoy up then continue.

That just puts your scouting and securing party at risk though. Sooner or later attrition is going to become a factor, and those zeds do have a nasty habit of playing patsy until the good stuff arrives.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok whatever...Better tell a bunch of people that their 4wds and all their off road driving techniques are useless then!:rolleyes: Hmmm,JCBs to punch holes in these hedges and ditches perhaps if really extreme??

For certain specific agricultural tasks, 4WDs are excellent. For cross country escape and evasion in Ireland, no. Also I wouldn't fancy moving a JCB across hundreds of miles of boggy fields and ditches tbh.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not if you GTFO of the area very quickly..Which is the whole concept of being mobile in the first place ,to shift at the first sign of trouble.Not to stand there and die heroiclly shooting it out.If that many Zs wander into your campsite,somthing has gone wrong very badly.

Agreed, but you're only moving very quickly in the early stages. After that foot is about as fast as you're going in this country over long distances, for the most part.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If you want to die of boredom in your diet that is!! And you are going to need more vitamins and suplements to function properly.God help you too if a more virulent form of blight hits your crop.Zs and a rerun of Black 47:eek:

Admittedly that's a risk, but for the first few years you should be alright. Spuds are the most ignorantly simple crop you can plant, no expertise is required, just fire and forget. You don't really need supplements to keep going - the Irish population boomed before the famine based almost entirely on a diet of praties and not much else. It wouldn't be a laugh a minute but it will get you there.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thanks for the lesson on spud growing 101!!

Well, for the benefit of others reading really.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Mixture is bluestone,but pray tell,how many places will have this,for how long??And how will you shift it say,from a secured compound that has a chemist maybe to your small holding wherever if there is no road transport??

There are a lot of anti blight mixes out there. People have reported some success with a mix of nettles, in fact. However this being Ireland most farms will have a decent supply of fungicide handy. Of course, you could just include it in your preparaton stockpile.

Mahatma coat

I'm just home today after 10 Yearish in Australia, I started readin this thread and It put me to thinkin about my newfound situation here, I live on a Peninsula, fortificaion of the area would be a since, I was up in the top field earlier at the brothers site, if it became nescesary to seal the Parish off from the outside world My family and a small group of friends could achieve this reasonably easily within 6 weeks with the machinery available to us now, that could be spe up considerably if needed bt 'borrowing' other machiinery in the area. we have very good farmland, and there is a fairly good diversity of crops and livetock in the area, we have access to the coast and the Bay would be in our territories, there is also an added bonus of a fall back position which is an Island joined to the mainland by a Very narrow sand bar, with a few bags of ANFO that can be sealed off in Seconds:D it also contains good farmland, fresh water and enough shelter to hold up to 200 people.

all in all, fortress are Location and Situation specific, take the Maginot line as an example;)

ScumLord

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok,tell us alll about this when you cant leave your fortress,are low on ammo, are down to the last packet of crisps and pot noodles,and are considering drinking your own piss as the Zs are 20 deep outside your one and only escape route and gathering more and more. Called Siege,they dont have to do anything just stand there,you have to still feed and drink to stay alive.

I live in the country, where are all these Zombies coming out of all of a sudden? Like I said, you patrol and ensure zombies don't make it in great numbers to your main fortress. There should be outer perimeters to slow them. Zombie moves slow and are predictable.

Maybe,if you actually read up abit on military history,you would find that many forts were abandoned thoughout history,because they cost too much to maintain in both manpower and money!!!

Well the environment and society changed, there were new levels of security brought about with the rise of nations, fortified settlements became unnecessary due to peaceful cooperation within nations.

So now YOU want to defend and build a fortress somwhere with a bunch of disprate,desperate people ,who have no idea of firearms,defence,patroling,food procurement ,etc,and are proably worried sick about their fammlies,loved ones,friends etc,and you are going to make this work and build a fortress too???Lots of luck!!!
Hollywood ....rightttt on !!

In my town are farmers, butchers, cooks, builders, engineers, doctors which just about covers everything. There's not going to be the big gunfight showdown of desperate people we see in hollywood movies. People don't act like that in crisis and they don't act like that in small communities where everybody knows each other. They will band together and defend the town if needs be.

SmileyPaul

you continue talking about "fortresses" which to be honest.... none of us are REALLY gonna be taking the route of, just a secured piece of land with entrances and exits well secured.

like one of the posts above said, where are the Z's gonna be coming from all of a sudden to be 20 deep all around your perimeter... we're not gonna be holing up in freaking lighthouses with no way of growing crops unless we leave.
20 deep (for example) each person approximately... 600cm wide for the laugh. and our forteness possibly being... 100m squared. thats over 13K zombies for 1 "fortress" I know you were only sayin 20 for the laugh but thats a bit silly
no need for it
even 5 deep. 3.3k Zombies surrounding a piece of land 100m2 in the arse hole of nowhere....
where they coming from? and they're gonna be coming slowly, in dribs and drabs, completely reasonable numbers for the most part to be taken out well before numbers rise that drastically

you were cool at the start but your fighting a losing battle with this,
I wish you the best of luck with your moving convoy it'd be interesting to see where you's actually get the trucks in the first place since I take it you all don't own one already. you're really relying on everything to go perfectly to plan for yourself, even though you already know that wont happen

also, there's no need to be so condescending towards members of this forum who have been around a lot longer that you (spologies if this looks like backseat modding) we're all friends here, so chill

Amhran Nua

SmileyPaul wrote: »

you were cool at the start but your fighting a losing battle with this,

It might work alright in the US though, which is full of wide open spaces and wide open roads. Here, not so much. Although if you get through the first winter you might take to the road as game populations explode. In the absence of crops, if you didn't have them, you'd pretty much have to, since you'd hunt out any given area in about a week and a half. You'd need to know snares and game preparation/basic survival skills however.

Grizzly 45

[

I live in the country, where are all these Zombies coming out of all of a sudden? Like I said, you patrol and ensure zombies don't make it in great numbers to your main fortress. There should be outer perimeters to slow them. Zombie moves slow and are predictable

.

Well you tell me.... I assume they will shuffle off looking for fresh meat about the land,driven by whatever urge there is keeping the undeadup and shuffling..
Uh Huh...So all the military might [in the movies] of the US armed forces,British,NATO,etc cant stop the undead,yet a bunch of untrained hastily armed locall yokels will be able to keep themselves safe???

Well the environment and society changed, there were new levels of security brought about with the rise of nations, fortified settlements became unnecessary due to .

I see,so places like Spike Iisland ,Charles fort,etc which all have their defences seaward were abandoned because of "peaceful cooperation within nations."???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:In a country that was the mosrt rebellious in the English empire.They were superflous to the precived threat,military tactics changed and /or the cost was too great.
Put it like this..Why isnt the magazine fort or Collins barracks not occupied anymore in the Phoenix park?Would make sense to have a military base in the city centre in case of civil unrest.Simple they are too expensive to maintain.

In my town are farmers, butchers, cooks, builders, engineers, doctors which just about covers everything. There's not going to be the big gunfight showdown of desperate people we see in hollywood movies.

Missing leader [Who?],security,no mention of law enforcement,security,etc
Any of your town got experiance of defence,setting up a defensive position,etc??They might be quiet handy,oh! forgot communications experts,as I doubt the interweb will be working?
And they are going to become automations ,supress human emotions,and operate cooly and without worries and fears??They are not going to say "fuk this lets get out of here like right now and scarper to Auntie Marys farm in Ballynafeck" or whatever..One Hell of a disiplined town there...

People don't act like that in crisis and they don't act like that in small communities where everybody knows each other. They will band together and defend the town if needs be.

Right...So you have actually done a study of this in your town??Hate to say it but you have a very naive faith in humanity..
Humans wil look out for themselves first,their kin second and their community thirdly.You only keep them together by convincing them to work for the common good,and there they have to see value of their efforts,you can coerce them to work for the common good,by laws and govt,but you have to have the muscle to enforce it IE police,govt officals,army.Or by sheer personal will and charisma,with benign muscle to deal with the disenters [IE somone moaning about somthing "disappers" that night].IF you cant convince your town people to stay together for the common good,they will be gone to the 4 winds by the following week.
And to convince them to stay you will have to offer protection from the Zs .Ergo you will have to defend and fortify the community..How pouplar are you going to be asking people to pull a nights sentry duty after a hard day doctoring,cooking,etc??You are going to need no matter what security personel to defend these vital people of your community.WHERE and HOW do you get these??

Grizzly 45

continue talking about "fortresses" which to be honest.... none of us are REALLY gonna be taking the route of, just a secured piece of land with entrances and exits well secured.

Well why then do you have an entire thread then on the suitability of old forts etc as a good place to hole up then,and loads of people posting it is a great idea???It's one or the other..If you are going to set up secured pieces of land.You STILL NEED the manpower to operate it,and NOONE has answerd how or where you are going to get this...
Even you yourself said you didnt know how much manpower you need for 2 acres to work and secure it as you are a 20 year old college kid as you said yourself.

like one of the posts above said, where are the Z's gonna be coming from all of a sudden to be 20 deep all around your perimeter... we're not gonna be holing up in freaking lighthouses with no way of growing crops unless we leave.
20 deep (for example) each person approximately... 600cm wide for the laugh. and our forteness possibly being... 100m squared. thats over 13K zombies for 1 "fortress" I know you were only sayin 20 for the laugh but thats a bit silly

Well,this is your factor of X,seeing that the Undead have never risen,and suposedly only will on Judgement day,in which case we dont have long to worry about it.We wont know,and as we are dealing with an arguement in absurdity anyway,that rotting corpses will stalk the land,with intense difficulty if you know anything or actually have had any dealings with real dead bodies,that after a week,even if there was a virus,disease,lifeforce,malignet leprachaun,whatever in the rotting gloop that passes for a brain,even the brainstem would be rotten and said disease,will be dead or unable to animate somthing that is falling apart rapidly in the air anyway.Reckon you will see them coming for miles as all the crows and carrion birds circle over them for dinner.

But we digress.Where do they come from?Well,I assume they will be shuffling out from the cities after chowing down on everyone in Dublin thats left.Seeing that we only have Hollywood to guide us on this,they seem to be able to smell or sense living humanity from great distances.

So do your math then as to how many,etc:)



no need for it
even 5 deep. 3.3k Zombies surrounding a piece of land 100m2 in the arse hole of nowhere....
where they coming from? and they're gonna be coming slowly, in dribs and drabs, completely reasonable numbers for the most part to be taken out well before numbers rise that drastically

you were cool at the start but your fighting a losing battle with this,
I wish you the best of luck with your moving convoy it'd be interesting to see where you's actually get the trucks in the first place since I take it you all don't own one already. you're really relying on everything to go perfectly to plan for yourself, even though you already know that wont happen

I think there will be plenty of abandoned trucks about the place dont you??Dont think anyone would be too upset if I borrowed a couple either,and I do know how to hotwire a car or truck,used to be a skill we had when I was alot younger.Not that I'd need to ,3miles from me there is a trucking depot where I learned when I was about your age to drive one.So I know where the keys are and the staff who might know what are the better options.
Abit of advice from somone who is proably old enough to be your dad![Sorry if that sounds condecending!]
8Ps Prudent prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
It is a great one to live by,as it gets you thru the mundane bits when the Zs dont arrive ,but the other day to day horrors of normal life do.:rolleyes:
The other is adapt,improvise,overcome.Yeah,mightnt have the ideal vechicle on day one ,but it will be found,eventually.Mightnt have a group of people who want to go my way,no problem,we all make our choices and live and die by them.
One thing for sure,you wont find me holed up in a last stand no way out about to be overrun stationary target for 1,10 or 10k worth of Zs.
Best of luck too with the communes,complexes,firebases,fortresses or whatever you want to call them.I really hope you have the logistics,manpower,administration capability,and defensive knowhow to run ,maintain and defend it.As there wont be any rescuing force coming over the hill in the last minute ala Hollywood either.:rolleyes:

also, there's no need to be so condescending towards members of this forum who have been around a lot longer that you (spologies if this looks like backseat modding) we're all friends here, so chill

[/QUOTE]

Well, thewn maybe they should take on board ,that NOT everyone out here is on their level,some people might have really real experiance,and its the height of ignorance and bad manners to address a poster in the third person.
So I'll bid you all CIAO,and hope to see you all on Z day.:D
Grizzly45

Grizzly 45

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Here, not so much. Although if you get You'd need to know snares and game preparation/basic survival skills however.

Would have thought that would be somthing of a given with any Z survivor,learn basic bushcraft?:)

Amhran Nua

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Would have thought that would be somthing of a given with any Z survivor,learn basic bushcraft?:)

I've no idea, I'm a random wanderer in these parts. I've a keen interest in back country hiking and a few woodsman skills, like trapping, skinning, cooking, and smoking game, that sort of thing. Might be worth a new thread - How Prepared Are You?

ScumLord

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, thewn maybe they should take on board ,that NOT everyone out here is on their level,some people might have really real experiance,and its the height of ignorance and bad manners to address a poster in the third person.

Sorry with the leading intro I wasn't paying full attention and thought you where quoting the post from somewhere else. It's a classic American response to get away from civilisation while it's collapsing and it probably does make sense in America from what we've seen of Katrina Americans will go nut's and turn on each other.

But different cultures will react differently as we saw with the Japanese disaster. Unlike the Americans they didn't loot or panic, they stayed calm and dealt with the problem.

Small Irish communities won't turn on each other, we're used to depending on each other.

Bucklesman

I think the biggest fallacy here is fuel. Better off securing a compound and saving what fuel you can scavenge or grow for scouting and an escape plan.