Pronation, foot strike and choosing the right shoe

shotgunmcos

I'm sure we all have an idea if we are pronators, over pronators or supinators (a couple of artilces below in case you have no idea)

http://www.asics.ie/running/knowledge/understanding-pronation/
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-240-319-327-7727-0,00.html

I had a gait analyis done a while back and it confirmed I had a neutral footprint and could wear just about any shoe. The wet test on a running stride concurs that I don't over pronate. Although I have hobbits (fat) feet I have some sort of arch. Anyway I have also changed from a heel strike to a mid foot strike over the last year. I find that my shoes wear down exessively on the outside edge especially under the ball of the foot. I've burned through a pair of Mizuno Wave rider 6 and a pair of Asics Gel 2160s in less than 4 months on 40-50 miles per week. No rubber left on outside edge! The wear pattern on the shoes resembles more of a supination pattern

When I researched it states (broadly) that supinators should avoid stability shoes and go for more cushsioning. The only pair of cushioning shoes I think I owned were a pair of Addidas Supernova Sequence and they were pretty comfy.

I'm wondering if others have a similar situation and if so what shoes you find best for general training, races and long distance?

BeepBeep67

I'm pretty much the same as you (minus the Hobbit feet ).
You should consider the Adidas Response Cushion as you are already an Adi user. I was an Asics user (10XX and 20XX) and the moved to NB 106X , but a few years ago came across the response cushion 16, I'm on the 19's now and while they have become a little bulkier I find them very comfortable, great spring and I get 500+ miles from them - great for a mid-mileage shoe. They are easy to source (Lifestyle normally have end of lines for €50 every few months). From there I progressed to the Adizero Tempo for the faster stuff and HM's, currently use the Brooks ST4 for racing, but will get one of the lighter Adi models later this year. Also have changed my XC and Track spikes to Adi.
For my longer runs I'm still on NB 76X and 84X as I like a little bit of extra support as I tire, tried the Adidas Response Stability but didn't like that one.

Izoard

Just posted this in my log....

Run #10 in my first pair of Asics (Nimbus 12s)...love them!

Was strictly a Pegasus man (neutral + lots of cushioning), until an un-named run store in Dublin city centre put me on the road to ruin by proclaiming that I needed stability and I ended up in a pair of structure Triax.
A lot of my achillies problems started around then, but I never put it down to the shoes.
A recent trip to AK and I ended up back in the Pegasus, but the local sports store had a sale on the Asics, so I gave them a lash (they are pitched as neutral, same as the Pegasus).

So, after some trial and a lot of error, I'll split between the 2, but promise to re-fresh them on a more regular basis.

Jacky08

Izoard wrote: »

Just posted this in my log....

Run #10 in my first pair of Asics (Nimbus 12s)...love them!

Was strictly a Pegasus man (neutral + lots of cushioning), until an un-named run store in Dublin city centre put me on the road to ruin by proclaiming that I needed stability and I ended up in a pair of structure Triax.
A lot of my achillies problems started around then, but I never put it down to the shoes.
A recent trip to AK and I ended up back in the Pegasus, but the local sports store had a sale on the Asics, so I gave them a lash (they are pitched as neutral, same as the Pegasus).

So, after some trial and a lot of error, I'll split between the 2, but promise to re-fresh them on a more regular basis.

I've had problems with finding the perfect runner - have moved from Asics, Nike Peagasus (Good) Adidas response (dreadful) and completed my training and DCM in Brooks Glycerin (satisfied but not convinced)
Think the Nimbus needs another go

But has anyone used these Mad Reeboks, the Zigtec???

shotgunmcos

Thanks Izoard.

I did a good bit more reading and went for a change over

Current
Ascis GT 2160s - circa 350 miles in em
Mizuno Wave Inspire 6 - circa 430 miles in em

On the way
Adidas Response Cushion 19
Mizuno Wave Rider

The current 2 will be rotated as usual for easy runs only. What I found about them is this
2160s - good general trainer, has some stability so suited to longer runs when you foot strike gets lazy and retreats back towards the heel. A little heavy and 'clunky' for fast stuff though
MW16s - Straight out of the box felt light and fast. Did my 2 pbs this year in em. Found that they wore away faster than the Asics though. Not enough cushioning for me as I'm not exactly light on my feet, hence the switch to Rider.

I was always an Asics Kayano/21xx wearer until I broke the mould with the Adidas Supernova Sequence last year which were very nice and 'bouncy'. I lost track of the mileage in them though as so I was nearly down to my socks on the outer edge. Silly me never realised that for my A race of the year. I have since learned the value of rotating and keeping a log of the miles I put into each shoe.

Its taken me 3 flippin years to figure out that, worn and dead shoes leads to injuries :rolleyes:

Izoard

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Current
Ascis GT 2160s - circa 350 miles in em
Mizuno Wave Inspire 6 - circa 430 miles in em

What are your criteria for changing - miles done and/or visible wear?

For years I've been hanging onto "lucky runners":eek:, oblivious to the damage I was doing to myself...

shotgunmcos

Izoard wrote: »

What are your criteria for changing - miles done and/or visible wear?

For years I've been hanging onto "lucky runners":eek:, oblivious to the damage I was doing to myself...

I check wear first. Any bit a niggle pops up on shins, ankles, feet or knees and I double check the shoe's wear. I also take note when they start to feel flat especially on long runs. Only lately have I checked the mileage and saw I was in the 300-400 range for both after 4 months. God know what I've been doing in dead runners in the past!

On the wear I went back over shoes I haven't thrown out in the last 2 years. You would think I was a supinator looking at any of them but definite exessive wear on the last 3 pairs as I spent all of last year converting from heel to mid foot strike

thirstywork2

I supinate on my left foot while me right foot is neutral.Most people i find who say they wear down on the outside edge aren't supinators but more havy on their feet.This is not always true but the inital strike/contact will usually be ont he outside of the edge.
If you feel that you supinate or get an assesment to see then i would suggest a soft flexible shoe to encourage your feet to come back intot he midline.
I don't think anyone can come on here and reccomend a certain shoe that works for them as we are all so differnt but beepbeep probably has as many shoes as i DO :eek:

InTheTrees

Interesting. I can how a neutral foot would wear out shoes designed for a pronator really quickly.

I'm a pronator, I think its important to get some quality insoles as well a shoe that suits ones foot.

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I'm sure we all have an idea if we are pronators, over pronators or supinators (a couple of artilces below in case you have no idea)

http://www.asics.ie/running/knowledge/understanding-pronation/
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-240-319-327-7727-0,00.html

I had a gait analyis done a while back and it confirmed I had a neutral footprint and could wear just about any shoe. The wet test on a running stride concurs that I don't over pronate. Although I have hobbits (fat) feet I have some sort of arch. Anyway I have also changed from a heel strike to a mid foot strike over the last year. I find that my shoes wear down exessively on the outside edge especially under the ball of the foot. I've burned through a pair of Mizuno Wave rider 6 and a pair of Asics Gel 2160s in less than 4 months on 40-50 miles per week. No rubber left on outside edge! The wear pattern on the shoes resembles more of a supination pattern

When I researched it states (broadly) that supinators should avoid stability shoes and go for more cushsioning. The only pair of cushioning shoes I think I owned were a pair of Addidas Supernova Sequence and they were pretty comfy.

I'm wondering if others have a similar situation and if so what shoes you find best for general training, races and long distance?

I am no longer a fan of gait analysis. I've yet to have one done that reflects what I actually need.

I've also scrapped the whole thing about wear and tear and binning shoes and all that. If they haven't fallen apart then they are still good. If I'm willing to run barefoot and can run barefoot then why does the age of the runner matter?

shotgunmcos

tunney wrote: »

... If they haven't fallen apart then they are still good.

Really? so wearing shoes with 6+mm worn on the edge so that your foot and subsequently your ankle is tilted outwards is not a heighted risk of injury? Of course running barefoot is ideal or runners with no spring to run on grass, sand, mud etc... Our caveman ancestors didn't have to run on broken tarmac and potholed concrete!

PaulieC

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Of course running barefoot is ideal or runners with no spring to run on grass, sand, mud etc... Our caveman ancestors didn't have to run on broken tarmac and potholed concrete!

Maybe not on broken tarmac or potholed concrete, but probably on hard-packed clay, stony trails, rocks etc.

thirstywork2

tunney wrote: »

I am no longer a fan of gait analysis. I've yet to have one done that reflects what I actually need.

I've also scrapped the whole thing about wear and tear and binning shoes and all that. If they haven't fallen apart then they are still good. If I'm willing to run barefoot and can run barefoot then why does the age of the runner matter?

Not trying to be funny here but what do you need???
Why would you get one done if you know what you need?
Also what would you get running shoes if you are running barefoot?

Also when do you decide if they have fallen apart?
few things I look for if the heel counter is still springy and not work apart.
The midsole has abit of life left and the obvious one is the outsole.
Shotgunmcoss is spot on about the inbalance if its worn away too much.

tunney

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Not trying to be funny here but what do you need???
Why would you get one done if you know what you need?
Also what would you get running shoes if you are running barefoot?

Also when do you decide if they have fallen apart?
few things I look for if the heel counter is still springy and not work apart.
The midsole has abit of life left and the obvious one is the outsole.
Shotgunmcoss is spot on about the inbalance if its worn away too much.

I've been unfortunate that the runners I liked got discontinued. When looking for a replacement i would explain what I want only to be told "hop up there and we will have a look". Then they recommend the completely wrong type if shoe.

I don't run barefoot all the time. But I got to think if you can do it for 10pm no problem is the cushioning really that important? Or is it the protection from glass and similar?

When do I decide if they have fallen apart? Large holes in the uppers or all the midfoot sole being worn away.

Abhainn

thirstywork2 wrote: »

I supinate on my left foot while me right foot is neutral.

This is exactly me also. Because of this I am having some left achilles tighteness
I was a Pegasus man then turned to Nike Vomero but because I have a fairly narrow foot the latter are slighly too wide. Back on the Pegasus again.

Any narrow shoe recommendations for me?

InTheTrees

I'm a pronator and in my research for buying a new pair a month or so ago I realised this whole business of gait analysis while certainly being valuable isnt quite as complex as I thought.

Basically shoes that are designed to stop pronating or supinating(?), simply have a flare at the bottom of the sole to discourage ones foot for rolling left or right. They're usually badged as "motion control" which means they have the flare.

And thats about it right? Apart from the regular other suppoort in the shoe the only added "mechanics" to aid pro- or supination is the flare in the rubber sole. Get a good pair of insoles as well and you're good to go. yes, you want them to be comfy and the right shape so you should try different pairs to get some that feel right for you, but for gait adjustment its pretty simple. Get motion control.

Or am I wrong?

thirstywork2

Abhainn wrote: »

This is exactly me also. Because of this I am having some left achilles tighteness
I was a Pegasus man then turned to Nike Vomero but because I have a fairly narrow foot the latter are slighly too wide. Back on the Pegasus again.

Any narrow shoe recommendations for me?

you could go for new balance 1080(come in width fittings)
also the brooks glycerin is fairly narrow.
Vomero i see are doing a 4E fit which is just crazy when they are wide in a standard width.
Adidas are also narrow,the glide would be there neutral shoe.

inthetrees what you said doesn't make sense at all.What is a flare?Are you talking about medial support?If so then this wont work for a neutral runner or under pronator.
regarding insoles are you taling about sorbotahane or an over the counter insole or an orthotic.The problem is people come on here after reading a little research on shoes and confuse the issue.

Tunney i take is you are talking about the marathoners?I don't understand why nike discontiued these and the zoom elites.Everything is feckin lunar this and lunar that.
I see where you are coming from regarding recomendations based on a gait and at this stage you probably knows what works best for you and you probably have very efficent gait but the problem is over 70% of runners i look at aren't and are wearing shoes whcih wont support them efficently.

RacoonQueen

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Tunney i take is you are talking about the marathoners?I don't understand why nike discontiued these and the zoom elites.Everything is feckin lunar this and lunar that.
I see where you are coming from regarding recomendations based on a gait and at this stage you probably knows what works best for you and you probably have very efficent gait but the problem is over 70% of runners i look at aren't and are wearing shoes whcih wont support them efficently.

Do you do gait analysis yourself then? Never had one myself so really can't be that much of a judge and maybe I've just been lucky - I do put a lot of research into shoes before I buy a new pair, but I don't get all they hype around getting a gait analysis.

thirstywork2

yes being doing it for 5 years now !!!
There is more to it than just a gait analysis,history of the individual,Injuries current and past,wear pattern ont eh old shoes ect.RQ I can tell you do your research

The product knowdlege is as important as knowing the analysis.

shels4ever

thirstywork2 wrote: »

yes being doing it for 5 years now !!!
There is more to it than just a gait analysis,history of the individual,Injuries current and past,wear pattern ont eh old shoes ect.RQ I can tell you do your research

The product knowdlege is as important as knowing the analysis.

To be fair I think time is a key thing in GAIT analysis, most places have you done in 10 mins. Where I know that my gait would change a huge amount over a long run.
I think the longest analysis I had was by yourself actually.

curraghyid

Got a gait analysis done about a year ago and was told i was medium overpronator. got another today on the basis of the discomfort gt 2160 were causing ,(i was striking the ground with outer midsole )low and behold Neutral.
I fully agree with the theory now of i will just have to find whats right for me.

hot to trot

Had gait analysis done yesterday. I pronate more on my right foot than my left. He showed it to me on teh comptuer screen. I asked him how much pronation he considered normal and allowed before stability shoes were recommended. He couldnt understand what I was asking. :mad: Pronation is normal,It is only when it is excessive and the timing is wrong that it may cause a problem , particularly if the body has not already compensated for it. I am beginning to think that in shops if they see any pronation at all , they want to eradicate it .
I was then reassessesd in shoes and he said that was much better. Dooh, it was just harder to see cos I was in a shoe.
I understand gait and have a very good working knowlege of biomechanics and I think that people are "over prescribed" structred shoes and orthotics IMHO

I also think 115 euro is a bit of a rip off in this day and age for last year stock , with no negotiation on price. Or am I just being mean ?
60 Sterling versus 115 yoyos seem a huge difference.

thirstywork2

12-15 degrees !!!
From my days of working in Elvery sports i saw this very frequent,sales guys reccomended motion contol shoes too many times.
you could have easily not bought the shoe if you thought it was over priced

Can i ask are your legs bow shaped?Sometimes when this is the case it looks worse then it actually is !!!

hot to trot

thirstywork2 wrote: »

12-15 degrees !!!
From my days of working in Elvery sports i saw this very frequent,sales guys reccomended motion contol shoes too many times.
you could have easily not bought the shoe if you thought it was over priced

Can i ask are your legs bow shaped?Sometimes when this is the case it looks worse then it actually is !!!

Well actually I didnt buy them.:o Straight legs thankfully . certainly wasnt 12-15 although its great to know that . Thanks.

A lot of the structured shoes are very rigid in the middle and I think where they dont suit people is that there is huge resistsance in the running cycle where your calves and achilles are trying to bend them. If you take them up in your hand and try to "rolll" them, you would be lucky to just bend the toe on many of them. This is what some people need but it jsut causes trouble for others.
Best solution is to try different ones and when you know what suits. just stick to them.

thirstywork2

The structured shoes are rigid in the middle for a reason ie to support the foot through the gair cycle if needed.
Ok you have figured out yourself you don't need this but many others do.
most shoes have very flexible flex groves in the forefoot,its under the arch and all to the medial side where the support is.

So your advice is to try differn't shoes and just hope you get lucky?
once you find them I agree you should stick to something that works.
I have been trying for 13years to find the perfect shoe but still can't find it and I know what im after as I under pronate.Soft flexible and light

BeepBeep67

Another Adidas win for me tonight when my Adidas Adizero Cadence spikes lost their virginity - 6 x 800 and a very comfortable out of the box experience.

BeepBeep67

shotgunmcos wrote: »

On the way
Adidas Response Cushion 19
Mizuno Wave Rider

See the thread I've just started on Lifestyle doing their scrappage offer on Response - 25% off.

MaroonTam

I got a copy of Runners World yesterday and there was an ad supplement for Inov8 stuffed inside.

They are pushing "Natural Running" (looks very like Chi Running from the diagrams) and have a range of shoes with a smaller and smaller heel drop until you get to flats.
They even had a "transition" training plan, giving sessions where you could try the shoe flatter than the one you are wearing over a number of weeks (presumably by buying each shoe in the series)

All looked very gimmicky to me.....

woody1

got gait analysis done a year ago now in dublin, now every pair of shoes i ever had has worn badly on the outside edge of the heel, when i run you can see my right foot is actually turned out during the stride, ( i think this may be to do with previous injury but im not sure ) , thing is they put me into mizuno wave inspires, which are motion control, but what im reading here is i should be in something a lot lighter .. or am i wrong..
on the day i had a Baaad hangover..not the best time to go shopping , and i wasnt really turned on to what they were saying to me .. need a new pair now and want to get an idea of what im after

thirstywork2

woody1 wrote: »

got gait analysis done a year ago now in dublin, now every pair of shoes i ever had has worn badly on the outside edge of the heel, when i run you can see my right foot is actually turned out during the stride, ( i think this may be to do with previous injury but im not sure ) , thing is they put me into mizuno wave inspires, which are motion control, but what im reading here is i should be in something a lot lighter .. or am i wrong..
on the day i had a Baaad hangover..not the best time to go shopping , and i wasnt really turned on to what they were saying to me .. need a new pair now and want to get an idea of what im after

When you got it done they should explain the gait cycle better and go through the differnt pahases eg contact area,mid stance and propulsion/toe off.
Most people tend to turn on on the inital contact so I wouldnt be too concerned about this.Inspires arent motion contraol,they are a moderate support shoe(Mizuno alchemy motion control)
When you say lighter are you looking for a training shoe or racing shoe?
The Inspires are built for someone up to a weight of around 12.5-13.5stone
Also Mizuno would be lighter than most brands due to the Wave Technology.
people are starting to confuse themselves

woody1

maybe i am confused,
2 online stores websites have the mizunos down as motion control, if they are moderate support then maybe there fine, and im bag on 12.5 stone so they were right for me in that sense
no they didnt go thru gait cycle or anything like that, run on treadmill for 30 secs, watch back, and select runners accordingly
as for me saying i thought i needed something lighter again this was based on reading this
"Lightweight trainers are often best, as they allow more foot motion. Also, check for flexibility on the medial (inner) side of the shoe. " from runners world
but you say they are lightweight so maybe their fine,
i need to change them as theyve gone thru 600 + miles at this stage, ( or is that another myth ) wouldnt mind knowing what to be looking for in order to have a wider range to chose from, training and racing shoes combined .. i dont do enough to justify getting 2 separate pairs

thanks for the information so far. sorry if im confusing anyone

seanynova

woody1 wrote: »

i need to change them as theyve gone thru 600 + miles at this stage, ( or is that another myth )

thats an interesting point, maybe slightly off topic though....

why is it recommended we change our running shoes after XXXmiles (except for retailers making a sale)?

compare an old 500+ mile pair of runners to bare foot running, or using the high mileage old runers to run on grass?
eg: i understand the cushioing wears out of the shoes after XXmiles but would that be a bad thing if you were only to run on grass?

bambera

Since I was a kid, the inside of the heel on my shoes wears right down while the outside is fine. I assume this means I over pronate.

I've been wearing the same pair of Asics runners (couldn't tell you what kind they are) since I started running on and off a year and a half ago but it's only in the last few months that I've properly stuck to it and built up to about 50km a week now. I keep getting blisters at the very top of my second toes in (the ones beside my baby toes) and on the side of my big toes. Does this mean that I need to get runners with cushioning? (the fit of the runner feels fine and I think a size 6 would be too big and a 4 would be too small.)

I've been considering the lifestyle scrappage scheme but I wouldn't even know what type of runners I would be looking for?

Sorry if I'm confusing anyone but I'm confused myself. Any idea what I should be looking for?

woody1

you can only get 2 types on the lifestyle scrappage anyway
addidas supernovas or response

thirstywork2

seanynova wrote: »

thats an interesting point, maybe slightly off topic though....

why is it recommended we change our running shoes after XXXmiles (except for retailers making a sale)?

compare an old 500+ mile pair of runners to bare foot running, or using the high mileage old runers to run on grass?
eg: i understand the cushioing wears out of the shoes after XXmiles but would that be a bad thing if you were only to run on grass?

I don't think this comes from the retailers but from the brands themselves.Im a big beliver in 3 tests to see if there is life left in the shoe.Torsional twist,heel cup and flexion test on the upper.
Also agree with Seanynova that if a runner runs on grass this will increase the lifespan of the shoe but more so the wear down on the rubber outsole.Also weight of the runner and efficency play a factor.
I usually alternate a few pairs and would estimate I would run between 600-800miles depending on brands.
Mizuno break down alot faster for me but I really like them.

Bambera it sounds like you need a support/control shoe and also sounds like the fit int he toe box is an issue also.Look at half sizing also as you mentioned size 4 and size 6
Newbalance,brooks and asics do width fittings and also Mizuno are a wide fit.Adidas are narrow so don't thik they will work for you.
hope this help,any problems pm me.

rom

Currently doing 35 miles a week road running. Last pair were Asics Gel Cumulus 11(S/S 2010 Colour) T947N 9155 So I went in to a major running shop in Cork and asked them what I should get. So they looked at my arch and said I had fallen arches and fitted me out with a pair of Gel Cumulus 12 I have them about a month. Now I have a pain on my left foot I know its probably due to my left foot being slightly shorter than the other. Where can I get my stride analyzed in Cork instead of a shop thats trying to sell me something ?