Property maps: What does 6'RH mean on a land map?

summereire

It's by the stream at the boundary between me and my neighbour on my original land map from the purchase that is attached to the instrument: 6'RH.

Much appreciated if anyone has any idea what it means! We're trying to clarify the boundary so I was thinking maybe it offers a clue.

Supertech

The Land Registry Map will not clarify the boundary. They are index maps only.

That note probably relates to the Ordnance Survey Map and is likely to be an offset for a Townland Boundary or similar which is 6 feet to the Right Hand side of the centre line of the stream.

Hippo

The Registry doesn't use OS maps anymore, they stick to the new digital ones. You could make an enquiry directly with the Registry, but it's unlikely to be a vital indicator of anything, and as Supertech says, they don't stand over these as legally binding representations of boundaries.

The original Instrument, the number of which will appear on your folio beside the date on which you acquired the land, may be of more help, there should be a verbal description of the land. You can obtain a copy of the instrument directly from the PRA.

summereire

Thank you very much for your replies.

Yes, it's the map part of the instrument that I am looking at, and that has 6'RH marked on it.

We were verbally told that the stream is part of the property when we bought it (some time ago now) and the map does have the red line including the stream, but you know how inaccurate those lines are, it's not drawn that clearly.

The red property line line overlaps the dotted region/district/area boundary line so presumably the 6'RH refers to both then as they are both in the same place?

I'm still a little unclear on the 6'RH - from the centre of the stream, which way is right, facing in which direction? Also, surely the stream moves from time to time, based on how much water is in it and wears away the bed over time.

Thanks again for your insight into this.

Supertech

Lettering on an OS Map (and by extension on Land Registry Maps) always runs East to West, as North is always at the top of the sheet on such maps.

Notes on such older maps will only refer to features which are marked on them such as Townland Boundaries, Baronies, Ward Boundaries and so on, so the '6'RH' refers to one of these features. If it's in a rural area I'd guess it's a townland boundary which is normally marked with a dotted line. Townland boundaries are often used as a convenient way to define land parcels, so indirectly, if the note refers to the Townland Boundary, it may also refer to the property boundary, but as has been said this may only become clear from the written description of the land.

You are correct in saying that the course of the stream may change over time, but the position of the Townland Boundary remains as it is shown on the map (just to confuse things further !!)

At the risk of sounding silly why are you trying to define the boundary ? Are you planning on building or just fencing the site ?

Best bet with regard to agreeing the boundaries is to get Land Registry Maps of both properties and compare them first to see if they match (there are some issue with these maps at present, and they may in fact not match)

If they do, then any fence line should in theory be marked along the shared property line shown on both maps (although this may be difficult if there is a stream involved)

If they don't, then yourself and your neighbour should define an agreed boundary clearly on the ground, and have both maps and folios rectifiied accordingly. There may be a cost attached, but at least you will have the peace of mind of knowing that the maps will match the situation on the ground.

summereire

Yes, it's a townland boundary from what I can make out. The Land registry boundary on the current map, is different from an old land registry map we have, and that is different again than the original map in the instrument.

I presume there are just two ways to get the map: the one that is included with the instrument when you order a copy of it and the land registry folio map? Am I right in thinking that there are no other maps that indicate boundaries, wayleaves or things like that other than those 2 (which I have)?

My reason for wanting to know the boundary is because up until now we've just had the area open, and not fenced, and that's been fine with me but lately I've noticed some attempts to put up some fencing on our side of the stream. I will go and talk to the people who own the land (it's huge, so they're not exactly next door) but I just wanted to know how to read the map first.

I've included a scan of the map below, with some bits removed for privacy. It's a bit hard to read the 6'RH so I've included a copy of another more recent map that shows the same piece more clearly. The main image is of the map with the instrument.

I understand the dotted line is the townland boundary, the red line is our boundary and presumably the two lines are the stream, which seems to be on our property, but then cross over on the land to the left where there is another 6'RH.

Your advice on interpreting this is much appreciated!

Hippo

As was said above, the PRA won't stand over their maps for the purposes of boundary disputes. Take whatever information is available on the PRA instrument and hire an engineer or surveyor to take appropriate measurements. Your interpretation of the lines on the map seems accurate, but I'm not entirely sure that the '6 RH' is relevant to your query one way or the other.

Without reading the folio or instrument it's really impossible to comment any further.

Supertech

Summereire are you sure that the document you're reading is the 'instrument' and not the Folio ? There's a difference in that when you get a copy of the Folio you're purchasing a physical printout of the digital information held on file by the Land Registry.

All of the folios in the country (I think) have been digitised in recent times, some accurately - some not.

If you have a copy of the instrument (or can get one) then there should be a certified copy of the original map which was lodged with your registration. This would give you 2 maps for comparison. Both maps should hopefully show exactly the same thing.

If there's an attempt to fence land which you believe is yours then you need to meet the owner of the adjoining lands and agree the line of the fence - there's no other way to do it really, and to do this correctly you may need to use a surveyor or engineer.

I'd guess that the townland boundary referrd to is located at 6 feet from the right hand bank of the stream looking North, but as Hippo has said above I can't tell if this has any relevance to your question or not.

It's difficult to comment on the portions of the map you've shown, all I would say is that those scraps seem to be from an older map, and not from the current digital style Land Registry Folio Maps. If you contact the Land registry you can purchase a copy of your relevant folio for about €25, and this will show you what is currently registered to you. That might make matters a lot clearer.

summereire

Great, thanks very much for those replies.

it all seems fine, and clear that the boundary is in the right place anyway, I'm going to talk to a surveyor to get a report done up on it anyway.

I was more just curious about this 6'RH thing. There seems to be a little arrow by each of the 6'RH showing opposite directions so I'm not sure what 6' to the right of the stream would be considering it's at an angle and the arrows point differently.... Curious :-)

Is there not some proper legend that explains these mapping practices? I was Googling before posting this, but no luck.

Supertech

I have a symbols sheet somewhere summereire but I couldn't find it yesterday or today. I'll have another look and let you know what I find.

Supertech

Turns out 6'RH means that the relevant boundary is '6 feet Root of Hedge', and the arrow obviously means the side that this 6 feet is offset on.

This link has the key ..... http://www.planningpack.ie/symbols.htm (Bottom entry left hand side !! )

summereire

Brilliant, thanks Supertech - that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Ok so:

6' = means 6 feet
Root = means the middle of the hedge presumably
Hedge = which hedge does this then refer to?

There are some trees growing on both the North-Western and South-Eastern sides of the stream, hardly a hedge though.

We own the South-Eastern side and the stream falls within the boundary line on the map with the instrument so is it 6 feet from the hedge on their side of the stream do you think?

I know I'll have to get this investigated in more detail but I just value learning about it for myself so I can know what I'm talking about. It's all actually quite interesting, like deciphering historical artifacts :-)

Supertech

6' = means 6 feet
Root = means the middle of the hedge presumably
Hedge = which hedge does this then refer to?

God Knows summereire

The original Ordnance Survey was carried out in the 1820's, so there could have been any number of hedges there since !! Quite often features on maps have long since disappeared when you go to look for them on site.

However, I'm not sure the key is of any use to you in solving your problem. Essentially the red line on the Land Registry Map, the Folio Map, identifies your 'property' but is non-conclusive as to the type or extent of the boundaries of that property (There should be a note on the front page of your folio stating this clearly)

Sometimes the boundaries of the property are easily identifiable as features on the map and sometimes, as in your case, they are not. Is the newer Folio Map any clearer ?

summereire

Yeah, I hear you :-)

The new folio is basically the same as the original instrument map, but with even less detail.

Every single things that exists around our property has been built there since the property was bought and the original maps were drafted, and they all seem a bit off in the sense that they can't all be right.

All the folio shows, just like the image from the instrument map I posted above, is two black lines where the stream runs (which I'm guessing indicate the stream itself) and the red boundary line on our neighbours side of the stream.

It's all very simplistic, as in reality the stream meanders all over the place, and the only fixed point that seems to still exist on the site since the map was drafted is the stream itself.

Supertech

If the red line is on your neighbour's side of the stresm, this would indicate that the stream is contained within your folio and and that therfore any fence would by extension have to be on your neighbour's side, and not on yours. An engineer or surveyor will sort it out pretty quickly for you (hopefully) and I'd have a professional opinion based on the maps, the folio and the instrument before you go talk to the neighbour.

Avoid a dispute at all costs as the system is not set up to deal with them and more often than not there are no winners in such a case. Best of luck with it.

summereire

Thanks very much, good point about having the research and opinion before talking.

powdajohn

Derived a lot of information from Supertech specially. Land disputes can be dragged the wrong way and get real messy sometimes.