Catchweights grrrrr

Barry.Oglesby

I have to vent a bit here.

I'm getting fighters names from a variety of sources for my next show and some of the weights I'm getting are crazy. "He fights at 75kg/81kg/87kgs" etc. etc. etc.

we already have a shallow talent pool, especially given the amount of shows, so why dilute it further by drawing guys into increasingly random weight divisions? The most common one is 73kg "Light Welter".

Now sometimes catchweights happen, either at late notice or because a fight looks good, but by and large the two guys involved have a weight division already and are either cutting further or not cutting to make a certain weight, but I really think if we're to have competitive divisions, particularly at amateur, then promoters need to lay down the law and take a stance. We all say how interested in growing the sport we are so why not put our money where our mouths are and state that

Flyweight
Bantam
Feather
Light
Welter
Middle
Lightheavy
Heavy

are the weight divisions when making match ups for shows? It would send a good message out to fighters and coaches that they must take match ups and divisions seriously and allow for more competitive matches on shows that the public are shelling out their hard earned cash for.

SDTimeout

Maybe some promotions are just pleased to have fighters, first timers are just pleased to have fights and don't mind.

Just playing devils advocate . I do think if you're taking a fight one of the main things you need to do is be on level playing ground weight wise. Otherwise you're putting the promoter in bother and your opponent.

BJJ tournaments ( weights etc ) are good prep for MMA fights too i suppose, I'm only looking at it from my own POV though.

Mellor

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

we already have a shallow talent pool, especially given the amount of shows, so why dilute it further by drawing guys into increasingly random weight divisions? The most common one is 73kg "Light Welter".

That's ridic Barry.
Fair enough, they happen, and first timers are acceptable too I suppose.
But to actively aim for a target weight that doesn't exsit is nonsense

stevemc01

Not a fan of Catchweight matches unless its 2 really good guys from different weight classes meeting in the middle for a once off big fight.

If you cant cut below 73kg, its either time for a new eating and training plan to enable you to cut the extra 3kgs or time to put on some size and fight at 77kg.

Kal_El

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I have to vent a bit here.

I'm getting fighters names from a variety of sources for my next show and some of the weights I'm getting are crazy. "He fights at 75kg/81kg/87kgs" etc. etc. etc.

we already have a shallow talent pool, especially given the amount of shows, so why dilute it further by drawing guys into increasingly random weight divisions? The most common one is 73kg "Light Welter".

Now sometimes catchweights happen, either at late notice or because a fight looks good, but by and large the two guys involved have a weight division already and are either cutting further or not cutting to make a certain weight, but I really think if we're to have competitive divisions, particularly at amateur, then promoters need to lay down the law and take a stance. We all say how interested in growing the sport we are so why not put our money where our mouths are and state that

Flyweight
Bantam
Feather
Light
Welter
Middle
Lightheavy
Heavy

are the weight divisions when making match ups for shows? It would send a good message out to fighters and coaches that they must take match ups and divisions seriously and allow for more competitive matches on shows that the public are shelling out their hard earned cash for.

Agree with all of this.
The only time in my opinion when catch matches should be made are with juniors. Only because i hate seeing some young lad of 15 trying to strip weight. They are only kids they shouldnt have to do that.
The divisions have been in for ages they are recognised around the world. If you fighter is 75kgs and dosnt wanna cut to 70kgs then he fights at 77kgs.

On a side not i thought the 73kgs division was used openly no?

Tim_Murphy

Whilst not 'official' 73kgs is used often enough, in Ireland at least, so is less madeyuppy than most catchweights. Given the huge difference between LW and WW it is not a bad idea either.

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Whilst not 'official' 73kgs is used often enough, in Ireland at least, so is less madeyuppy than most catchweights. Given the huge difference between LW and WW it is not a bad idea either.

Agreed here, 70-77 is a massive jump considering 65.8-70 is only 4.2kg difference, obviously when it gets heavier it's less important but lots of lads walk around at 75 and simply cant cut to 70 and would prob be in with 80+ fighter on fight night if fighting at 77kg, 73kg is the 1 weight that i don't look at as a catch at all.

what annoys me is when people want 74, 62, 85 etc-thats just messing about and certain clubs are aleays at it, cut the extra kg or feck off.

pablohoney87

Yeah. 73 I think is good to have for guys coming down. Makes the transition easier while getting some fights in before the inevitable drop to 70. I dont think guys should be allowed after a couple fights and should be told to make the extra cut or stay at 77

Raze_them_all

cowzerp wrote: »

Agreed here, 70-77 is a massive jump considering 65.8-70 is only 4.2kg difference, obviously when it gets heavier it's less important but lots of lads walk around at 75 and simply cant cut to 70 and would prob be in with 80+ fighter on fight night if fighting at 77kg, 73kg is the 1 weight that i don't look at as a catch at all.

what annoys me is when people want 74, 62, 85 etc-thats just messing about and certain clubs are aleays at it, cut the extra kg or feck off.

you could say the same about 84-77 or 93 to 84

cowzerp

Raze_them_all wrote: »

you could say the same about 84-77 or 93 to 84

as lads get bigger the difference in a few kg is much less important, so even though i know what you mean i disagree.

Mellor

That's true, but the 93kg div is a bigger gap.
so its prob the exact same,


MMA just doesn't have to fight pool of boxing to allow for smaller divisions. It would be great if every one could find there ideal division, but some are going to be between two, even at elite levels. It's better to accept this and aim to move to a weight as best you can, than creating an endless amount of catchweight fights

Sid_Justice

I think the 70kg, 73kg and 77kg are legitimate weight classes at C-class level. I think the vast majority of fit adult males float around these weight classes.

Having a guy that walks around at 75kg fighting at 77kg exposes him to guy that's 81kg or above who cuts down to 77kg, bit of a mismatch. As having said, I'm talking about C class, so relative beginners just getting experience I think promoters should keep this in mind.

I think one of the issues may be newer gyms not being as savvy about the weight classes as they should be. They may look at mma league as a reference point rather than the weights used in the UFC so they may think telling someone they have a fighter at 75 is helpful.

Weight classes are important and should be conserved but there is a case, for the amateur lads, to have a little flexibility to ensure fair match ups.

Barry.Oglesby

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I think the 70kg, 73kg and 77kg are legitimate weight classes at C-class level. I think the vast majority of fit adult males float around these weight classes.

Having a guy that walks around at 75kg fighting at 77kg exposes him to guy that's 81kg or above who cuts down to 77kg, bit of a mismatch. As having said, I'm talking about C class, so relative beginners just getting experience I think promoters should keep this in mind.

I think one of the issues may be newer gyms not being as savvy about the weight classes as they should be. They may look at mma league as a reference point rather than the weights used in the UFC so they may think telling someone they have a fighter at 75 is helpful.

Weight classes are important and should be conserved but there is a case, for the amateur lads, to have a little flexibility to ensure fair match ups.

I think that's all fair enough BUT.

You should know the weights involved in the sport you're competing in, or sending athletes into. I recognise that there's a lot of new gyms out there and it will take a while for them to come up to speed, but that won't happen if promoters continue to match their guys at catchweights. I heard of a C class fight that took place at 71kgs. 71!!! You're literally a big poo away from a legitimate weight class.

The second issue is that people are parting with significant chunks of change to view shows these days and I think they're entitled to higher standards of competition. I would suggest, politely of course, that if you can't as yet make a weight division then people shouldn't be paying €25-€30 to come and see you under strobe lights.

Paul, 70-77kg is exactly the same distance as 77-84kg. We could argue the toss but the simple fact remains that no such division exists.

Hanley

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I think the 70kg, 73kg and 77kg are legitimate weight classes at C-class level. I think the vast majority of fit adult males float around these weight classes.

Having a guy that walks around at 75kg fighting at 77kg exposes him to guy that's 81kg or above who cuts down to 77kg, bit of a mismatch. As having said, I'm talking about C class, so relative beginners just getting experience I think promoters should keep this in mind.

I think one of the issues may be newer gyms not being as savvy about the weight classes as they should be. They may look at mma league as a reference point rather than the weights used in the UFC so they may think telling someone they have a fighter at 75 is helpful.

Weight classes are important and should be conserved but there is a case, for the amateur lads, to have a little flexibility to ensure fair match ups.

I know very little about MMA, but is 2-4kg on a guy with 6-12 months exp going up against another guys with 6-12 months exp really going to be the decisive factor?

Mellor

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Having a guy that walks around at 75kg fighting at 77kg exposes him to guy that's 81kg or above who cuts down to 77kg, bit of a mismatch. As having said, I'm talking about C class, so relative beginners just getting experience I think promoters should keep this in mind.

How many guys ay C class are cutting 4kg or more?
Aren't C-class same day weigh-ins. Or has this changed with the new ruleset

cowzerp

Mellor wrote: »

How many guys ay C class are cutting 4kg or more?
Aren't C-class same day weigh-ins. Or has this changed with the new ruleset

It's never really been same say weigh ins, I know it's happenned but that would be the exception rather than the rule,

same say weigh ins are dangerous because people will still cut and fight dehydrated, therefore risking brain injuries.

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

It's never really been same say weigh ins, I know it's happenned but that would be the exception rather than the rule,

same say weigh ins are dangerous because people will still cut and fight dehydrated, therefore risking brain injuries.

It used to happen more often, there were same day weigh-ins back in the old Ring of Truth days. That would have been before A/B/C but the semi-pro (I know you love that term! ) fights were same day weigh in and if I'm not mistaken one of my pro fights (against Colm O Reilly I think) was same day weigh in too.

Anyway, 'official' or not, Light Welter makes sense sometimes as would putting in other 'half' divisions. Newbies looking for fights at random weights is funny all the same. Who'd want to be a promoter?!

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

That would have been before A/B/C but the semi-pro (I know you love that term! )

With 3 amateur divisions it just makes sense to use a term to seperate the 1 that is closest to full MMA, would be better if C was just amateur and the others where grappling hybrids to be honest.

Sid_Justice

Hanley wrote: »

I know very little about MMA, but is 2-4kg on a guy with 6-12 months exp going up against another guys with 6-12 months exp really going to be the decisive factor?

yes imo

if your point is take two guys with equivalent skill sets and give one guy a 4kg advantage - the weight will become the decisive factor (or luck).

if your point is if you take 2 guys with 12 months training the range of skill sets may be so variable (some guy might have a fantastic club and have a boxing background versus a guy with a not so good club with a kratty background) the weight isn't as relevant if the weight is in the poorer guys corner.

my point is, and this is relevant at c class with 0-3 fights as well as higher up the experience ladder there are guys at 77kg who 'should' be fighting in '70', i don't on the UFC scale i mean simply these guys are a bit chubby (don't 'lose weight'). And there are others at this level who are ripped at 80 and are genuinely 'cutting' to make weight.

Sid_Justice

Mellor wrote: »

How many guys ay C class are cutting 4kg or more?
Aren't C-class same day weigh-ins. Or has this changed with the new ruleset

more than 0

kid chaos

73kg and 100-103kg catchweights IMO are fine. Amateurs should be allowed 1kg weight allowence, cant make it then fight the weight above and pick a better fight.

Tones69

Mellor wrote: »

How many guys ay C class are cutting 4kg or more?
Aren't C-class same day weigh-ins. Or has this changed with the new ruleset

Nope c class are the day before just like any mma show (besides mma league) Id normally be about 97kg

Niall0

With all the talk of rules, weightcalsses etc is the time right to come up with some sort of MMA body to regulate events?
Im sure this has been discussed before but wouldnt it make sense now that there are so many shows these days. Then everyone will use the same rules/weightclasses etc

Tones69

The only way catchweights should be allowed is if its a pretty much last minute relpacement or short notice of a month or so, this carry on of a lad being given 3 months notice and saying he wont fight at 70kg but will fight at say 73 or 74 isnt on really, either take some time off and put on some size to fight at 77 or take some time off to get ur weight down a bit, same for any weight category im just using welter as an example

Mellor

cowzerp wrote: »

It's never really been same say weigh ins, I know it's happenned but that would be the exception rather than the rule,

same say weigh ins are dangerous because people will still cut and fight dehydrated, therefore risking brain injuries.

Thanks.
Wasn't sure but thought that amatuer fights were same day weight in.

Pretty sure I can get down to WW so

Mouthalmighty

Just floating an idea (well an extension of an idea that is probably happening already) so bear with me. Do we need some form of "official" regulatory body for MMA in ireland?
I believe we do. I'm aware that there is a kind of unofficial group who have decided certain thing such as the refs that must be used & rules changes etc (which is fantastic) but i have noticed a lot of new clubs (nothiing against them) & promoters popping up & I'm unsure can anyone just say they'll run a show/club with no real experience.
I don't mean to sound like i'm down on new clubs/ promotions as all clubs were once new but i've seen fights that are complete mismatches (stevie wonder could see they are mismatches) & coaches from clubs give advice that was laughable. I'm only a hobbyist but when you hear a coach shouting for a headlock it kind of sets off alarm bells that the dude doesn't know what he's doing.
I would love to see mma becoming a mainsteam sport in Ireland & any serious injury to someone caused by any of the aforementioned would only hurt the sport.
If a group of the "first generation" mm artists (Kavanagh, Jones, Oglesby Leonard etc) got together to support/endorse good events &clubs & make this mandatory, the shadier operators would soon lose interest(hopefully).
I am unsure whether this is linked to the argument but just spitballin' here.
MMa is a sport with very few richard-heads lets try keep it that way.

cowzerp

I'd love to see a governing body but in reality it would split the sport all over the place-plus there is nothing to stop randomers doing mma promotions even then, just like now, the choice will still be there to fight on shows or not-We cant as a whole even agree to fight to a certain ruleset so imagine a body tried to control a promotion etc,,,

Governing Body-good in theory but would ruin the sport, pity the people who initially started MMA did not start 1 in the 1st place before everyone jumped on the bandwagon and put it where it is now-uncontrollable.

Mouthalmighty

I understand your point Paul. I suppose my suggestion would be in an ideal world & situation etc. My point/ query/worry arises from the mma league a couple of weeks ago where very few guys could do basic things (pass guard, defend guillotines etc) & my aforementioned example of a coach advising his fighter to do headlocks........... A signifigant (can never spell that word) number of the above situations came from guys fighting out of new clubs. Before I get a load of abuse about being down on new clubs there were guys from est'd clubs in similar situations but on the whole thats what i observed in 100+ fights. There was a club from sligo who did really well. I'm just worried about mismatches stemming from idiocy where some lad would get himself badly hurt before Dave Jones or the like could stop it.
That was the point of my little rant but I take your point on board Paul

Mouthalmighty

And crazy catchweight fights may fall under that umbrella. 71kg whats goinig on there?

Barry.Oglesby

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

I understand your point Paul. I suppose my suggestion would be in an ideal world & situation etc. My point/ query/worry arises from the mma league a couple of weeks ago where very few guys could do basic things (pass guard, defend guillotines etc) & my aforementioned example of a coach advising his fighter to do headlocks........... A signifigant (can never spell that word) number of the above situations came from guys fighting out of new clubs. Before I get a load of abuse about being down on new clubs there were guys from est'd clubs in similar situations but on the whole thats what i observed in 100+ fights. There was a club from sligo who did really well. I'm just worried about mismatches stemming from idiocy where some lad would get himself badly hurt before Dave Jones or the like could stop it.
That was the point of my little rant but I take your point on board Paul

This is the perfect situation though. Guys go into a rules format where they can't really get hurt, make their mistakes and hopefully learn from them. I don't see a problem with this?

Kal_El

Everybodys gotta start somewhere.
New fighters need the League. As do new coaches. You need to learn to be a corner man and what advice to give and when. More levels makes it easier for fighters to progress thats why i think you still need the "old" ammy rules set.

Tim_Murphy

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

This is the perfect situation though. Guys go into a rules format where they can't really get hurt, make their mistakes and hopefully learn from them. I don't see a problem with this?

People can get hurt at the league, it's not as likely to happen as it would be in an A/B/C fight but I've seen it happen all the same.