Car insurance claim with AXA

cherie1990

Hi,
I went out for a Drink, I decided to drive there and get a taxi home. When I came back the next day to collect my car it was burned out! I went to the Garda station and they told me to report it to the insurance company and comeback later when the Garda that was on duty last night is back on. I reported it to the insurance company and they immediately sent a car from enterprise to collect me and get me a rental car.

I only paid €3500 for my car a few years ago as my friend was trading her car in and that was all they were offering her so I paid her that for it. I told the insurance assessor that I only paid €3500 for it but I had it insured for €5000+ as thats the actual value of it now.

When I went back to the Garda station that night they told me that my car was gone, they didn't take it and neither did the insurance company. The car is insured in my name but my boyfriends name is on the log book.

Is there any reason that my claim wont be paid. Or will I get very little for it as I told them that I only paid €3500.

slimjimmc

I may be wrong but I doubt it matters that you got a bargain or not, if the trade value of the car is higher than the purchase price then it's worth the trade value. After all that's what you would reasonably expect to get if you chose to sell it.

What are you basing your €5000 valuation on, forecourt prices or the trade price which is less since it deducts the dealer's profit?

They might query if you have an insurable interest in the car, e.g. you paid for the car even thought the BF is the registered owner.

And check with the litter warden or council, they may have had the car removed.

cherie1990

slimjimmc wrote: »

I may be wrong but I doubt it matters that you got a bargain or not, if the trade value of the car is higher than the purchase price then it's worth the trade value. After all that's what you would reasonably expect to get if you chose to sell it.

What are you basing your €5000 valuation on, forecourt prices or the trade price which is less since it deducts the dealer's profit?

They might query if you have an insurable interest in the car, e.g. you paid for the car even thought the BF is the registered owner.

And check with the litter warden or council, they may have had the car removed.

The value is based on on the prices from websites like buy and sell and auto trader and donedeal. Its the average price I found.

I paid for the car for my boyfriend but then a while later she bought a new car and I just used the older one, just never bothered changing the name over.

Fey!

With AXA, if the value of the car is €5,000 or above, then they will try and replace it with the same car; they have an office who deal with this.

As for refusing the claim due to it being registered in your boyfriends name, they may get a bit arsey about it, but it shouldn't be enough to refuse a genuine claim.

When it comes to where it was parked; you did the reponsible thing and left the car parked after a few drinks, and went back to pick it up the next day. It should be a non-issue.

Had the Gardai taken possession of the car for analysis? If they did, then it disappearing is their problem. If not, try the local authority (city or county council). If they didn't take it, then report it stolen to the Gardai (there was a thread on here lately where a guy had his UK reg'd car lifted by someone other than the authorities).

Value wise, you have it covered for €5,000. What you paid for it is irrelevant when it comes to your claim. They do not need to know how much it cost you; they only need to know how much it will cost to replace.

Hope you get it all sorted.

needtoknowasap

Hi there
I have worked in insurance for the past 6 years, the value you place on your car doesnt matter with the majority of insurance companies if anything happens it is usually the market value at the time of the incident that will be paid out. In relation to you insuring the car and the log book being in your boyfriends name then you could find your claim being thrown out straight away. Insurance law states you must be the owner of an item to insure it. One of the underwriting question you would always be asked when taking out insurance with a company is are you the owner of the car and is it registered in your name. If not they wont insure the car for you.

Yawns

Of course she may have selected the option of partner if she is co-habiting. Then she would have an insurable interest in the car.

Had this a couple of years ago where the partner wanted to have a policy on my car and I wasn't driving. Axa had the option on their website that she could select spouse as owner and we were co-habiting which we were. Over phone they refused until I got a manager on and after 30 mins of getting her to go through their own website she finally agreed. The icing on the cake was I told her we weren't taking the policy direct then, the broker got us the same deal with axa for €600 less


Just in case this is the OP's situation is why I posted.

cherie1990

We bought the insurance through a broker and they knew that the car is in his name.

davoxx

needtoknowasap wrote: »

Hi there
I have worked in insurance for the past 6 years, the value you place on your car doesnt matter with the majority of insurance companies if anything happens it is usually the market value at the time of the incident that will be paid out. In relation to you insuring the car and the log book being in your boyfriends name then you could find your claim being thrown out straight away. Insurance law states you must be the owner of an item to insure it. One of the underwriting question you would always be asked when taking out insurance with a company is are you the owner of the car and is it registered in your name. If not they wont insure the car for you.

which law?

Yawns

One of the underwriting question you would always be asked when taking out insurance with a company is are you the owner of the car and is it registered in your name. If not they wont insure the car for you.

Think what he means here is if you do it online, one of the assumptions is that you are the owner of the car. Not a question, an assumption. Once you make clear to the insurer that you are not the registered owner and they agree to insure you, they can't refuse to payout on the fact you're not the owner.

challengemaster

cherie1990 wrote: »

The car is insured in my name but my boyfriends name is on the log book.

Is there any reason that my claim wont be paid. Or will I get very little for it as I told them that I only paid €3500.

The fact its insurance fraud in the first place, they probably wont entertain it. That, and if you paid 3500 for it, it's hardly worth MORE now. Depending on the car you'd be lucky to get half that

Yawns

Good job challengemaster!

Where is it Insurance fraud if they stated it was the guys car on logbook but she wanted to be main policyholder on it and they agreed? Hardly insurance fraud.

She got a bargain of a car. She bought it for the price the dealer was willing to trade it in for. Dealers won't give market value for a trade in cos they sell it for market value or higher and make a profit. So she bought the trade in price and the market value is prob still about 4.5 - 5k.

But still, Bravo to your post.

Fey!

cherie1990 wrote: »

We bought the insurance through a broker and they knew that the car is in his name.

OP; if you informed them that the car is registered to your boyfriend, then you sould be covered. It's not as if you lied to them; you were straight up with them.

challengemaster wrote: »

The fact its insurance fraud in the first place, they probably wont entertain it. That, and if you paid 3500 for it, it's hardly worth MORE now. Depending on the car you'd be lucky to get half that

Well done on reading what the OP had to say.

As I said earlier, what you paid and what you insure the vehicle for are mutually exclusive. As long as you cover it for what it costs to replace you'll be fine.

slimjimmc

cherie1990 wrote: »

The value is based on on the prices from websites like buy and sell and auto trader and donedeal. Its the average price I found.

I paid for the car for my boyfriend but then a while later she bought a new car and I just used the older one, just never bothered changing the name over.

That will give you an indication of the Open Market Selling price, but that's not the same as the trade value. Since the motor trade are in the business of making a profit the trade value will nearly always be lower than the OMSP. I'm could be wrong but OMSP basically consists of (Trade value) + (seller's profit) + (a bit extra for negotiation so the buyer gets a good 'deal'). Don't get too much of a shock if you find that your 5k valuation is too high.

PeakOutput

cherie1990 wrote: »

Hi,
I went out for a Drink, I decided to drive there and get a taxi home. When I came back the next day to collect my car it was burned out! I went to the Garda station and they told me to report it to the insurance company and comeback later when the Garda that was on duty last night is back on. I reported it to the insurance company and they immediately sent a car from enterprise to collect me and get me a rental car.

I only paid €3500 for my car a few years ago as my friend was trading her car in and that was all they were offering her so I paid her that for it. I told the insurance assessor that I only paid €3500 for it but I had it insured for €5000+ as thats the actual value of it now.

When I went back to the Garda station that night they told me that my car was gone, they didn't take it and neither did the insurance company. The car is insured in my name but my boyfriends name is on the log book.

Is there any reason that my claim wont be paid. Or will I get very little for it as I told them that I only paid €3500.

your claim wont be paid as you are not the owner of the car in the eyes of the law, your boyfriend is. you cannot be insured on a car you do not own unless you are married to the person who owns it.

if they do for whatever reason (the goodness of their hearts ) decide to pay your claim at all the amount you get has nothing to do with how much you paid for the car, how much you told them it was worth or how much you think it is worth. an assessor will examine the car or in its absence examine the log book and mileage and come to a market value for the car and that is how much you will be offered

in your case however I think you will be lucky to get anything as one of the very basic rules of car insurance in this country is that you have to own the car to take a policy out on it

PeakOutput

Yawns wrote: »

Good job challengemaster!

Where is it Insurance fraud if they stated it was the guys car on logbook but she wanted to be main policyholder on it and they agreed? Hardly insurance fraud.

how long have you worked in insurance for?

It is insurance fraud to take a policy out on a car you dont own.

It is clear in all policy documents that you must be the registered owner of the car to be the policy holder. It is a virtual guarantee that she was asked was she the registered owner of the car when she was taking out the policy

the reason it is fraud is because it is illegal for someone with no insurable interest in an item to insure it, it is also illegal for anyone to make a profit on insurance.

as the law does not view her as the owner of the vehicle the law would view her receiving any money after its destruction as her making a profit from insurance as technically she has suffered no loss her boyfriend has. her boyfriend (apparently) does not have a policy on the car so he obviously will not be receiving any payout either.

the only time this changes is when you are married and therefore you technically own everything between you so a car in the husbands name is still the wives car and therefore she can take a policy out on it in her name if she wants

jimmynokia

in your case however I think you will be lucky to get anything as one of the very basic rules of car insurance in this country is that you have to own the car to take a policy out on it


they took the insurance gave her a policy ????

PeakOutput

jimmynokia wrote: »

in your case however I think you will be lucky to get anything as one of the very basic rules of car insurance in this country is that you have to own the car to take a policy out on it


they took the insurance gave her a policy ????

assuming she was not asked outright was she the registered owner of the car

then

insurance operates on the principle of utmost good faith.

its the ops responsibility to tell the truth as best she can and to read the policy documentation to ensure everything is in order.

if the insurance company finds out at a later date that the details they were given at the creation of the policy were incorrect (for any reason) they can decide to reject a claim and cancel the policy.

in some cases (and i have seen it happen in cases like this) they will 'cancel the policy from inception' and issue a refund of the premium, if they do this afair its as if the policy never existed.

this is usually used if there is a third party involved as they can also get out of any third party claims that arise as a result of the policy holder if they cancel from inception were as they would be 'insurer concerned' and on the hook for any third party claims if they just rejected the policyholders claim and canceled the policy from that date

edit; thats a pretty basic and bad explanation, these are relatively complex insurance concepts and i havnt worked in insurance for about 4 years so if something has changed in those four years my info could be inaccurate

edit2; just read that you bought through a broker and he was apparently aware that it was not in your name. if the broker accepts this or you can prove that it came up and was deemed ok while you were taking this new policy out with the broker then axa will more then likely honour the policy. brokers get a lot of leeway when they make mistakes like that

slimjimmc

PeakOutput wrote: »

how long have you worked in insurance for?

It is insurance fraud to take a policy out on a car you dont own.

It is clear in all policy documents that you must be the registered owner of the car to be the policy holder. It is a virtual guarantee that she was asked was she the registered owner of the car when she was taking out the policy

the reason it is fraud is because it is illegal for someone with no insurable interest in an item to insure it, it is also illegal for anyone to make a profit on insurance.

as the law does not view her as the owner of the vehicle the law would view her receiving any money after its destruction as her making a profit from insurance as technically she has suffered no loss her boyfriend has. her boyfriend (apparently) does not have a policy on the car so he obviously will not be receiving any payout either.

the only time this changes is when you are married and therefore you technically own everything between you so a car in the husbands name is still the wives car and therefore she can take a policy out on it in her name if she wants

Er, I don't think you're correct on that one (Axa policy wording)

section 1
loss or damage to your car
This part only applies if you have comprehensive cover, or third party fire and theft cover and the damage is caused by fire or theft.
What is covered?
We will pay for:
- loss of or damage to your car, and its accessories while in your car, up to the market value of your car;
- the reasonable cost of protecting and removing your car to the nearest competent repairer; and
- if your car is repaired in Ireland, the reasonable cost of delivering your car back to your address.
This will involve:
- repairing your car in an AXA garage or one of your choice; or
- replacing what is lost or damaged, if the cost of repairing it would be more than it costs to replace; or
- paying the cost of the loss or damage to you or the legal owner if we are told that your car belongs to someone else.

i.e your policy someone else's property. That basic clause applies to your main car even if your policy doesn't cover borrowed cars.

And also if you click the terms when getting an on-line quotation there is a distinction between owner and registered owner:

YOUR CAR
You or your spouse or partner is the owner or registered owner of the Car

It doesn't say you or your spouse must be the registered owner, nor does it say you or your spouse must be the owner. It just says that one of you be either the registered owner or the owner.


As for the fraud claim, the OP is the owner of the car, she bought and paid for it therefore has an insurable interest.

PeakOutput

I am fairly sure that the distinction between legal owner and registered owner refers to lease / finance agreements were you are the registered owner of the vehicle but the bank/ finance company actually legally owns it until the last payment is made.

however, obviously axa has changed their policy document since i worked there so who knows what else they have changed but i think the part you quoted from the terms for taking out a policy backs what i said up but i guess its open to interpretation

It doesn't say you or your spouse must be the registered owner, nor does it say you or your spouse must be the owner. It just says that one of you be either the registered owner or the owner.

the op dosnt have a spouse though she has a boyfriend therefore,imo, she must be the owner of the vehicle

Yawns

FFS

READ THE ****ING POSTS.

I don't work in insurance. I did have a situation where by my spouse took out inusrance with AXA about 2 years ago. It took a few days to sort it out but we made sure they had forms stating I was the OWNER and she would be the main policy holder. SO IT CAN BE DONE!

If I can find the damn documents I might just scan them in to shut you up.

If the insurance company is told from the start that the main policy holder is not the registered owner of the car then they cannot refuse to payout in this respect.

In my situation when he spoke over phone and finally got a manager to agree that they have to proceed with quote after I pointed it out on their website, they sent us forms. When we got the forms I made damn sure to send them back with a notation as it indicated my gf was owner which she wasn't. They send us corrected forms stating spouse as registered owner and she was covered as main policy holder. If you don't believe me, fine. Don't go telling everyone it's not possible tho.

Yawns

PeakOutput wrote: »

the op dosnt have a spouse though she has a boyfriend therefore,imo, she must be the owner of the vehicle

If they live together as common husband and wife, in the eyes of the law they are spouses.

PeakOutput

Yawns wrote: »

FFS

READ THE ****ING POSTS.

I don't work in insurance. I did have a situation where by my spouse took out inusrance with AXA about 2 years ago. It took a few days to sort it out but we made sure they had forms stating I was the OWNER and she would be the main policy holder. SO IT CAN BE DONE!

If I can find the damn documents I might just scan them in to shut you up.

If the insurance company is told from the start that the main policy holder is not the registered owner of the car then they cannot refuse to payout in this respect.

In my situation when he spoke over phone and finally got a manager to agree that they have to proceed with quote after I pointed it out on their website, they sent us forms. When we got the forms I made damn sure to send them back with a notation as it indicated my gf was owner which she wasn't. They send us corrected forms stating spouse as registered owner and she was covered as main policy holder. If you don't believe me, fine. Don't go telling everyone it's not possible tho.

They wouldnt quote you initially though because it is not allowed

the fact that you got away with it due to a possibly badly worded piece of information on the website and because they wanted to keep you the customer happy is irrelevant

also the definition of spouse is ones partner in marriage

rep8888

i got insurance with axa 4 days ago and no one wanted to know if i was the regestered owner they just gave me the quote and i accepted

PeakOutput

Yawns wrote: »

If they live together as common husband and wife, in the eyes of the law they are spouses.

I wasn't aware that common law partnerships are recognized in ireland and a quick google seems to confirm that but the most recent article i can find on it is from 2003 so has it been introduced since then

edit;dont know the date of this article but the first paragraph is

In Ireland there is no recognition of common law marriage type situations, that is, a union without a civil or religious ceremony. So in Ireland the concept of a ‘common law spouse’ does not exist.

Lawplus.ie

Yawns

Ok have this scanned in and blanked. Just to clarify a few things.

We were just living together. Not married or engaged. They confirmed her as spouse as we were cohabiting.

We sent the form back to them and they set it like this. This was done thru broker in the brokers office so we'd have proof. So they faxed it back as a scribble.

They knew I was registered owner, she was only gf and that she would be main policyholder.

If they didn't want to insure us they didn't have to.

NB:

They wouldn't quote you initially though because it is not allowed

This is false. i did it online and I got a quote with me as registered owner and gf as main policy holder. I just went thru broker as it was cheaper and then 2 different parties were made aware of the situation so they could not refuse to payout in the event of an accident.

Yawns

Department of social protection does.

Apparently it's not set in law, but neither is it ruled out that they cannot be spouses provided they share the same functionality as a married couple.

For Social Welfare purposes, cohabitation exists where the claimant and another person are living together as husband and wife.

As there is no other definition in law of what constitutes cohabitation, the relationship between the man and the woman must be shown to be the same as that of a husband and wife. As relationships and domestic and financial arrangements between husbands and wives vary considerably each individual case must be considered on its own particular facts.

All in all if the Insurance company refused to payout after being made aware of the situation from the start, they may find themselves liable in court for agreeing to insure the person.





EDIT:

The Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010 (“the Act”) has just been passed into law

The Act has defined “qualified cohabitants” as cohabitants residing together as an unmarried couple in an intimate relationship for a period of five years, or two years where there is a child or children of the relationship.

from http://www.bailys.ie/index.php/2010/11/co-habiting-couples-what-rights-will-you-have-when-it-all-goes-pear-shaped/

cherie1990

The broker was knew that the car was still in his name. I have been with them for years and they know that the car was in his name.However I have nothing in writing.

We are living together for 18 years and we are engaged. Also it says Spouse or partner so would my boyfriend not be considered my partner.

Yawns

Yes. If you were honest about it from the get go that you were main policy holder/driver and he was the registered owner on log book then they still insured you. You can always ask for a recording of the calls when you took the policy out if they say they're not paying.

As long as you are honest at the time of taking the policy out, made them aware of owners etc, if they still insured you then you are insured.

Avien

Yawns wrote: »

Yes. If you were honest about it from the get go that you were main policy holder/driver and he was the registered owner on log book then they still insured you. You can always ask for a recording of the calls when you took the policy out if they say they're not paying.

As long as you are honest at the time of taking the policy out, made them aware of owners etc, if they still insured you then you are insured.

Technically you could get away with that if there were no follow up, but after the initial call you are sent out a "proposal form". This proposal form lists all the details of the policy, including who owns the vehicle as per your telephone call. If you weren't asked chances are that this is defaulted to "proposer" ie the main policyholder. This proposal form will state that it is the basis of the contract between you and the insurance company & asks that you review all the information to ensure it is accurate. In the event that it is not correct you are required to return the form with the corrections clearly marked.

The initial call is not the basis of the contract where a proposal is issued, which should be done by every company. The company I work for certainly does this.

That said nearly every company I know of will allow the spouse/partner & child of a policyholder to be the registered owner. The distiction between legal owner and registered owner is purely related to the cases of hire purchase/finance agreements because until the loan is paid off the finance company is the legal owner, irrespective of who the actual registered owner is. Most policyholders fail to appreciate this when you tell them you have to pay the finance company for the value of their written off car:rolleyes:

Yawns

Indeed if you see the above they did send my gf a proposal form with default policyholder as registered owner. I made them change it

faw1tytowers

If broker is aware its in his name no issue. Some insurers do not insure unless in your name. Usually low budget no frills insurers. But this is not the case here. Nothing to worry about.

So as regards your car....

I would imagine the fire brigade put out he fire last night and that the car has been towed by the local authority/council/car pound.

However I sold a car last year to a couple it was only worth about 2,000 and they ran out of petrol near home and left it on road side. It got burnt out. They hadnt come to collect log book for ages after. I asked them recently how they got on with claim and they said they couldnt prove it was theres so no payout. Thought it was a bit weird and dont know ins and out. But anyway reason I knew is I got a bill from fire brigade and also a impoundment notice ie if I dont collect they will dispose of car. So thats probably where your car is

Regarding the value.. what had you values it at when you insured it? if at around 5,000 and you reckon average price to buy another is that then fingers crossed you get that. Hope it works out.