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Incorrect time on fixed charge speeding letter from the Gardai - Does it matter?

  • 16-03-2011 9:38pm
    #1
    rickyjb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭


    I posted this on the motors forum but was advised that I might get a better response here:

    "So I received in the post a fixed charge offence for speeding letter (for anyone who read this post yes, it arrived!) and on reading it my girlfriend raised an interesting point.

    The time that it was alleged the offence ocurred at is incorrect. I was stopped just before 8 in the evening but the time on the letter clearly states that it was 07:52 hrs, with the hrs part being vital here in my mind as it means that they are using the 24 hour time format, so it's 7:52 in the morning.

    If I can prove that I wasn't on the road at that time can I get out of it, or does the fact that I gave all my details at the side of the road mean that the incorrect time doesn't matter?

    I was also thinking that it might have implications for the calibration of the speed gun, I know they have to be calibrated regularly and if it's not documented as being calibrated at this time does that help me?

    Finally, even if I do have a case what would I need to do, let it go to court and then hire a solicitor?"

    What do people think?


Comments

  • #2
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    I think you didn't read the charter.


  • #3
    rickyjb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭rickyjb


    k_mac wrote: »
    I think you didn't read the charter.

    I'm not looking for legal advice as such, just if a technicality such as this has a bearing on my situation. Maybe this isn't the right forum, I was advised to post on the legal forum is there another one somewhere?

    I don't see your name in bold either by the way.


  • #4
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    rickyjb wrote: »
    I'm not looking for legal advice as such,

    Really?
    rickyjb wrote: »
    If I can prove that I wasn't on the road at that time can I get out of it
    rickyjb wrote: »
    if it's not documented as being calibrated at this time does that help me?

    Could have fooled me.

    rickyjb wrote: »
    I don't see your name in bold either by the way.

    You asked what I thought.


  • #5
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    You were caught, accept it and pay the fine!


  • #6
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Go for it. Prove you werent on the road at the time
    Any chance to get them back


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  • #7
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    k_mac wrote: »
    Really?





    Could have fooled me.




    You asked what I thought.

    Great advice there. You'll go far:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #8
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,808 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    What you're talking about here is a simple straightforward technicality, and you have 2 choices:

    1. Pay up and swallow the points

    OR

    2. Don't pay, wait for a court date, represent yourself or hire expensive counsel to represent you and let the court decide your case.

    Door 1 is the most cost effective and guaranteed way to know where you stand. If you opt for door number 2, a judge might well decide that it doesn't matter that the Garda put down "hrs" and might decide that the colon (the time separator) is sufficient to strike down your claim that the Garda was using military time. The correct way to write military time would be 0752 hours without a time separator.

    Risk 4 points, double the fine, and your own legal costs, or choose sensible Door 1 (which is what I would do).

    Choose wisely.
    rickyjb wrote: »
    I'm not looking for legal advice as such, just if a technicality such as this has a bearing on my situation. Maybe this isn't the right forum, I was advised to post on the legal forum is there another one somewhere?

    I don't see your name in bold either by the way.


  • #9
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    Great advice there. You'll go far:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Go far in what? I didn't give any advice. The reason being that nobody has any way of knowing what way his local judge will act. The only people who could hazard a guess would be a local solicitor. The judge may strike it out or he may punish the op for wasting the court and Garda time.


  • #10
    dax121
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 463 ✭✭dax121


    my friend had the same thing happen to him. and he showed it to a good mate of ours a sargent. he said dont pay the fine. when it comes to court tell the judge theirs a different time on the ticket that u werent caught speeding at that time. and ticket should be void due to the wrong time on it. the garda that done u mite approach u before hand. dont tell him either about the time because he can get something bone before the court not sure what the sargent said. but if the ticket is given on the day to the judge he will throw it out and u wont get the points. now this was over a year ago so maybe they changed it since then.
    good luck


  • #11
    coylemj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,622 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    The OP originally posted this query in the Motors thread and I suggested to him that he might be better putting it up on the Legal forum, not realising the hostile replies he'd get from a certain party (you know who you are).

    This is how it went, comments welcome......
    coylemj wrote: »
    If the actual time of the incident is not material to the alleged offence and you ignore the fixed penalty notice and it goes to a summons, the judge will simply alter the time (if it's stated) on the summons and you will have to answer the charge, he is allowed to do this under the District Court Rules.

    What I mean by the time being 'material' is that if the speed limit you allegedly broke applies for all 24 hours of the day, then the actual time isn't an essential ingredient in the offence. If the speed limit only applied for part of the day then the time of the offence would be material and you (but more likely your solicitor) might have a case for telling the judge that to alter the time on the summons would represent a significant change and beyond his jurisdiction.

    If it's a 24 hour speed limit I'd pay the penalty and take the points.


    I was then challenged...
    Our man in Havana wrote: »
    What speed limit isn't 24 hours?

    To which I replied....
    coylemj wrote: »
    I'm not aware of any. I was using the hypothesis of a time-based speed limit to illustrate the fact that if the time isn't an essential part of the offence in the OP's case, a judge would not throw out a prosecution just because the time is wrong, he will just change the time on the summons and tell him that the case is going ahead.


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  • #12
    MinnyMinor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭MinnyMinor


    rickyjb wrote: »
    I don't see your name in bold either by the way.
    +1
    Pay up and swallow the points

    OR

    2. Don't pay, wait for a court date, represent yourself or hire expensive counsel to represent you and let the court decide your case.

    Door 1 is the most cost effective and guaranteed way to know where you stand. If you opt for door number 2, a judge might well decide that it doesn't matter that the Garda put down "hrs" and might decide that the colon (the time separator) is sufficient to strike down your claim that the Garda was using military time. The correct way to write military time would be 0752 hours without a time separator.

    Risk 4 points, double the fine, and your own legal costs, or choose sensible Door 1 (which is what I would do)
    +1.


  • #13
    rickyjb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭rickyjb


    psni wrote: »
    What you're talking about here is a simple straightforward technicality, and you have 2 choices:

    1. Pay up and swallow the points

    OR

    2. Don't pay, wait for a court date, represent yourself or hire expensive counsel to represent you and let the court decide your case.

    Door 1 is the most cost effective and guaranteed way to know where you stand. If you opt for door number 2, a judge might well decide that it doesn't matter that the Garda put down "hrs" and might decide that the colon (the time separator) is sufficient to strike down your claim that the Garda was using military time. The correct way to write military time would be 0752 hours without a time separator.

    Risk 4 points, double the fine, and your own legal costs, or choose sensible Door 1 (which is what I would do).

    Choose wisely.

    What i was thinking of doing is sending a letter to the gardai directly explaining the mistake in the vague hope that they might dismiss the fine, it probably won't do much but I guess the worst they can do is re-issue a letter with the correct time. At least there's no risk involved, court seems a bit risky.

    Thanks to the people who have posted with helpful replies.


  • #14
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    coylemj wrote: »
    What speed limit isn't 24 hours?

    Your response is spot on. Just for your info, technically the speed limit in the port tunnel isn't 24 hours as it can be varied if there is an incident in the tunnel.

    The new gantries on the M50 all seem to have supports for variable speed limit signage so it's possible that variable speeds could be introduced in the future on that route.


  • #15
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    BrianD wrote: »
    Your response is spot on. Just for your info, technically the speed limit in the port tunnel isn't 24 hours as it can be varied if there is an incident in the tunnel.

    The new gantries on the M50 all seem to have supports for variable speed limit signage so it's possible that variable speeds could be introduced in the future on that route.

    If it's not a set limit is it even enforceable? Doesn't it have to be set in a local bylaw?


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