Juniors playing inter-club with away team

kingcobra

Hi i have a quick question here: are juniors able to play inter-club competitions (Barton Cup in this case) with their away club? Thanks!

mike12

Emailed the GUI
Hi,
We have a query about the eligibility of junior’s to play for there away club in the Barton Cup as far as we knew from last year it was ok for juniors to play for there away club, but with the rule change/motion(see below) this year dose that only cover junior competitions or dose it cover adult competitions as well. Or has this come into ruling or is it just a proposal.
Thanks .
Notice of Motion proposed by Boyle Golf Club
“That any players(s) categorised by his (their) Home Club as a Junior can only play for his Home Club in any Inter Club Competition in which they are eligible to compete and their Home Club have entered into”.
Motion supported
Reply
Thank you for your email. This rule was actually defeated at last year’s National AGM.

Kind regards,
Anita

TheDoc

Only saw this thread now :O

There was a rule to forbid juniors from participating in inter club competitions?

I'm not going to lie, I feel that golf is getting regressive when it should be progressive in utilising and promoting younger players.

Thankfully my golf club has always had a very good handle and progressive stance with juinor golfers. Simply put you reap the rewards long term.

I'm back in my club a few months now after a long spell out, and notice all the kids I played with who had high handicapps, are now all off single figures, and they all compete in the inter club competitions.

I was part of the Metropolitan setup for three years as a junior. I was only selected once due to the management feeling I was still too young, but it was a great experience to be in an around the setup.

And that one victory I got was significant. It was away, I was first out, and five down after five to come back and win, and was a pivotal point in me taking my golfing more seriously.

Webbs

TheDoc wrote: »

Only saw this thread now :O

There was a rule to forbid juniors from participating in inter club competitions?

I'm not going to lie, I feel that golf is getting regressive when it should be progressive in utilising and promoting younger players.

Thankfully my golf club has always had a very good handle and progressive stance with juinor golfers. Simply put you reap the rewards long term.

I'm back in my club a few months now after a long spell out, and notice all the kids I played with who had high handicapps, are now all off single figures, and they all compete in the inter club competitions.

I was part of the Metropolitan setup for three years as a junior. I was only selected once due to the management feeling I was still too young, but it was a great experience to be in an around the setup.

And that one victory I got was significant. It was away, I was first out, and five down after five to come back and win, and was a pivotal point in me taking my golfing more seriously.

I think you may have misread the thread. This was to apply to Juniors playing for their 'away' club.
I am guessing you read it as juniors not being allowed to play an away match for their 'home' club.

blue note

Is it not a problem that juniors tend to be improving at a fairly rapid rate so their handicaps are often struggling to catch up (down) with them? I'd imagine they'd have an advantage that way in comps.

Redzah

blue note wrote: »

Is it not a problem that juniors tend to be improving at a fairly rapid rate so their handicaps are often struggling to catch up (down) with them? I'd imagine they'd have an advantage that way in comps.

Yes and fair play to them for playing better than their handicap levels and improving rapidly. Why stop them playing in the away team because of this? The advantage would be to the club who brings their juniors through the ranks quicker and more regularly, surely this is a positive thing for the GUI and irish golf?

coddlesangers

Sheesh....it doesn't refer to Juniors playing "away" for their clubs in matches, it refers to Juniors playing for their AWAY CLUB. You can be registered for more than one club, you have to have one as your "HOME" club, this club is responsible for your handicap.

blue note

Redzah wrote: »

Yes and fair play to them for playing better than their handicap levels and improving rapidly. Why stop them playing in the away team because of this? The advantage would be to the club who brings their juniors through the ranks quicker and more regularly, surely this is a positive thing for the GUI and irish golf?

The problem is that you could have teams dominated by them and it's kind of an unfair advantage if a players handicap is lagging behind his ability. It's the same sort of objection to Juniors being allowed to win senior competitions.

Actually, just to give an example - the Easter Cup in my club was won by a guy with a net 70 (par 72). The Easter Cup to juniors was won by a lad with 51 points. The juniors needed 45 points to get into the prizes. They were obviously high handicap juniors, but the same principle applies to lower handicap ones, though diluted.

BoardsMember

blue note wrote: »

The problem is that you could have teams dominated by them and it's kind of an unfair advantage if a players handicap is lagging behind his ability. It's the same sort of objection to Juniors being allowed to win senior competitions.

There is an issue here. The idea of the interclubs is that similarly handicapped people are playing against each other, so the handicap system ensures that people are fairly matched.

It's also the case, with maybe a few exceptions, in the Barton/Metro type handicap range, people who have lost lots of shots since the turn of the year tend to be juniors.

I'm all for being progressive with juniors, involving them as much as possible. But it is simply not fair that a guy playing off 9 comes up against a guy off 4. I'm delighted the 4 handicap has lost 5 shots, fair play. But to pit a 9 handicap against a 4 handicap is simply not how golf was intended, and it needs to be looked at.

The fact that juniors tend to be the ones who have lost a rake of shots is ckouding the issue - this issue is that they maybe need to look at a combination of things as regards qualifying handicap for the specific competition: last years low handicap, but current year handicap must be within 2 shots of last year.

Redzah

blue note wrote: »

The problem is that you could have teams dominated by them and it's kind of an unfair advantage if a players handicap is lagging behind his ability. It's the same sort of objection to Juniors being allowed to win senior competitions.

Actually, just to give an example - the Easter Cup in my club was won by a guy with a net 70 (par 72). The Easter Cup to juniors was won by a lad with 51 points. The juniors needed 45 points to get into the prizes. They were obviously high handicap juniors, but the same principle applies to lower handicap ones, though diluted.

A players handicap lagging behind is ability is more of a CONGU problem with handicapping system, this is usually only very temporary as well as the handicap system is set up to combat this. Furthermore, most interclub teams require a max hanicap of around 14 (i think) so it eliminates the higher handicappers who need a significant adjustment. If a club has a team dominated by juniors then fair play to them for bringing them through and that team has earned this advantage, however i think you are grossly underestimating the experience needed when it comes to matchday that nullifies this advantage so a balance always works best.

Most clubs have a handicap cut off of 9 or lower or 12 or lower for juniors who wish to play in senior competitions to eliminate the threat u are talking about as the same principle does not apply to this as their handicap is more reflective of their ability and it also allows them to mix with the adult members of the club who will most likely be their teammates when it comes to interclub comps. This method of dealing with it is correct in my opinion.

AGC

Having grown up through Boys and Youths golf I would have slated any such motion be it for 'Away' or 'home' clubs but my thoughts have changed slightly.

My own club(Not Boyle) had a good run in the Barton Cup 2 years ago and we came up against a club who out of the 10 players had 7 juniors.

It was a quater final match and the highest combination they had at that stage was 6:eek:

It may not be a junior problem, it may be more the need to have a lower limit on the handicap as the competition progresses.

A pairing in the Barton final that year were combined 1.

Sorry slightly off topic....My view on who plays for 'home' or 'away' is that it doesn't matter. Person's choice.

BoardsMember

Redzah wrote: »

A players handicap lagging behind is ability is more of a CONGU problem with handicapping system

Not really, no. If you have a guy playing off 4 by June 2012, who was off 9 at year end 2011, the system is working perfectly well. He has lost 5 shots. Fantastic achievement. The system tells us he is a 4 handicap golfer. No problem with the system.

What is not working is that he's pitted against a 9 handicapper. Whether he's a junior or not is irrelevant. It's not supposed to be how it works. For example, the Metro is minimum 9 handicap. So you have a guy who is off 4 playing in a 9 handicap comp. Yes, only for 2012. But it is still should not happen.

Redzah

BoardsMember wrote: »

Not really, no. If you have a guy playing off 4 by June 2012, who was off 9 at year end 2011, the system is working perfectly well. He has lost 5 shots. Fantastic achievement. The system tells us he is a 4 handicap golfer. No problem with the system.

What is not working is that he's pitted against a 9 handicapper. Whether he's a junior or not is irrelevant. It's not supposed to be how it works. For example, the Metro is minimum 9 handicap. So you have a guy who is off 4 playing in a 9 handicap comp. Yes, only for 2012. But it is still should not happen.

The point you have highlight there was in relation to the posters comment on the lag between a junior getting cut and his playing ability for club competitions and not for interclub, please re-read!!

I believe the system that takes the lowest handicap from the prior year rewards those playing the best golf in the current year as they have got cut to show that. Therefore it takes more into account than on the day, it takes into account that they have reached another level in the current year and may be rewarded with winning interclub comps, sounds fair to me.

mike12

Redzah wrote: »

The point you have highlight there was in relation to the posters comment on the lag between a junior getting cut and his playing ability for club competitions and not for interclub, please re-read!!

I believe the system that takes the lowest handicap from the prior year rewards those playing the best golf in the current year as they have got cut to show that. Therefore it takes more into account than on the day, it takes into account that they have reached another level in the current year and may be rewarded with winning interclub comps, sounds fair to me.

Have to agree withthis any club or player who improves thru the competition then fair play to them.
You could end up with 2 9's playing but one of them was 13 3 weeks ago and has shot 73 the last 2 weeks and will continue to shoot those sort of scores but he is 9 the day of the match should he not be allowed to play.
There is no way of doing this unless you change to current handicaps and if you do that you will lead to a hole heap of players minding their handicap and getting .1 back so they will be able to play the nest round.
Lowest of the previous year is best we will get everyone just has to live with it.
Mike

Russman

I think fair play to the junior (or any player) that was 9 last year and is now 4 or 5.

To be honest, complaining about cut-off dates is a bit off the mark IMO.
It frequently happens that a club has a crop of juniors coming through at the same time and end up with a serious Metro team, but that will only be for one year. And why is that a bad thing ? It happens in every sport that once in a while there is a particularly good team in a competition. Thats just sport. I do feel for the 9 who has to play a 4 in singles matchplay, but he can still possibly win, and you can't have a situation where you're saying "hang on , I don't want to play him, he's better than me, I'll play yer man over there..."
Most older guys I know would actually relish the thought of having a crack at a young "hotshot" in matchplay anyway. And they might well win as they free up and have nothing to lose.
Again, its the ebbs and flows of sport.

Where do you draw the line ? If you have it as your handicap on the day of the match you'll have guys who were 7 last year playing metro, or even 8 the day before the match. I think lowest handicap the previous year is fair.

If you don't like juniors winning, beat them.

Not being smart, but looking at it slightly differently you could say Metro isn't really a 9 handicap comp, its more a 9 handicap as your lowest in the previous year comp.

BoardsMember

mike12 wrote: »

There is no way of doing this unless you change to current handicaps and if you do that you will lead to a hole heap of players minding their handicap and getting .1 back so they will be able to play the nest round.
Lowest of the previous year is best we will get everyone just has to live with it.
Mike

Yes there is, their playing handicap cannot be x amount of strokes below their last year low, or else they are effectively deemed to be too good for the competition as designed.

It's quite simple really - the competition is designed for handicaps of 9 and above. It is based on last years handicap, but its done like that for good reason. The reason is not so you end up with players playing off 5 shots below the minimum handicap.

I think that it is reasonable to expect players playing in that competition to be playing off a minimum of close to 9. I think it is unfair if someone is playing and is off 4 or 5. Just my opinion.

Mr. Larson

Russman wrote: »

I think fair play to the junior (or any player) that was 9 last year and is now 4 or 5.

To be honest, complaining about cut-off dates is a bit off the mark IMO.
It frequently happens that a club has a crop of juniors coming through at the same time and end up with a serious Metro team, but that will only be for one year. And why is that a bad thing ? It happens in every sport that once in a while there is a particularly good team in a competition. Thats just sport. I do feel for the 9 who has to play a 4 in singles matchplay, but he can still possibly win, and you can't have a situation where you're saying "hang on , I don't want to play him, he's better than me, I'll play yer man over there..."
Most older guys I know would actually relish the thought of having a crack at a young "hotshot" in matchplay anyway. And they might well win as they free up and have nothing to lose.
Again, its the ebbs and flows of sport.

Where do you draw the line ? If you have it as your handicap on the day of the match you'll have guys who were 7 last year playing metro, or even 8 the day before the match. I think lowest handicap the previous year is fair.

If you don't like juniors winning, beat them.

Not being smart, but looking at it slightly differently you could say Metro isn't really a 9 handicap comp, its more a 9 handicap as your lowest in the previous year comp.

True dat, good points made there. I've seen Metro teams of 10 & 11's hammer teams of 9/8.somethings, also there are so many variables between difficulty of golf courses and handicaps and individuals and everything else that it's unreasonable to expect to have all things equal in all ways... it's all about who plays well on the day that counts.

Russman

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yes there is, their playing handicap cannot be x amount of strokes below their last year low, or else they are effectively deemed to be too good for the competition as designed.

It's quite simple really - the competition is designed for handicaps of 9 and above. It is based on last years handicap, but its done like that for good reason. The reason is not so you end up with players playing off 5 shots below the minimum handicap.

I think that it is reasonable to expect players playing in that competition to be playing off a minimum of close to 9. I think it is unfair if someone is playing and is off 4 or 5. Just my opinion.

I can see your point alright, but I respectfully disagree.
I don't think any competition should be that closed off to players making their way down in handicap, or coming through the ranks from juvenile, junior etc. I don't think they should be excluded or penalised for improving. That way you'd have more or less the same players playing on the same team year in year out and create a bit of a closed shop with regard to, say, Metro.

The variations in ability, players, teams etc is one of the essentials of interclub golf IMO and I think it'd be a shame to make a competition more contrived.

The young buck against the wily fox is one of the great things in interclub. Both players, probably going in opposite directions, meeting in a match.....

BoardsMember

Russman wrote: »

I can see your point alright, but I respectfully disagree.
I don't think any competition should be that closed off to players making their way down in handicap, or coming through the ranks from juvenile, junior etc. I don't think they should be excluded or penalised for improving. That way you'd have more or less the same players playing on the same team year in year out and create a bit of a closed shop with regard to, say, Metro.

The variations in ability, players, teams etc is one of the essentials of interclub golf IMO and I think it'd be a shame to make a competition more contrived.

The young buck against the wily fox is one of the great things in interclub. Both players, probably going in opposite directions, meeting in a match.....

Yeah, I can see your point alright.

Maybe my viewpoint is affected by getting my ass whupped in a metro match last year having played great against a 5 handicapper when I went round in a few over par

Redzah

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yeah, I can see your point alright.

Maybe my viewpoint is affected by getting my ass whupped in a metro match last year having played great against a 5 handicapper when I went round in a few over par

lol, i'd say thats central to it. How do u think i felt when i was -1 and beaten after 14 holes in a senior cup match against a walker cup panelist (panel of 30 before being cut), makes things worse that he's a friend of mine.

BoardsMember

Redzah wrote: »

lol, i'd say thats central to it. How do u think i felt when i was -1 and beaten after 14 holes in a senior cup match against a walker cup panelist (panel of 30 before being cut), makes things worse that he's a friend of mine.

Well you're playing senior cup, there are no minimum handicaps. That's kinda my point, there is no tolerances: they would not be allowed to play in any normal comp off the 9 handicap; and there is no limit to the number of "bandits" playing with the 9 handicap rule, even if you could limit it to 5 of the panel of 9 in the metro. Otherwise you run the risk of excluding people off the actual handicap from it completely. I can see both sides of this though.

And heay, my heart bleeds for you, being low single figures must be awful

Russman

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yeah, I can see your point alright.

Maybe my viewpoint is affected by getting my ass whupped in a metro match last year having played great against a 5 handicapper when I went round in a few over par

Yep, same thing happened to me about 20 years ago in the metro semi final, played a lad out in Sutton, both of us 16 years of age, I was level par when I lost on the 14th. Fecker opened up birdie, birdie, birdie, birdie and then we halved the 5th in birdies !
Hey, thats golf

Redzah

BoardsMember wrote: »

Well you're playing senior cup, there are no minimum handicaps. That's kinda my point, there is no tolerances: they would not be allowed to play in any normal comp off the 9 handicap; and there is no limit to the number of "bandits" playing with the 9 handicap rule, even if you could limit it to 5 of the panel of 9 in the metro. Otherwise you run the risk of excluding people off the actual handicap from it completely. I can see both sides of this though.

And heay, my heart bleeds for you, being low single figures must be awful

Yep but the system usually eliminates bandits as they invariably will go to try and win a few comps every year and thus get cut and as the system is based on previous years lowest then it works in this case. Most juniors are trying to get cut as much as they can so if they play well in a current year then they deserve the advantage they get, after all they did earn it. Nothing stopping u going out and practicing hard at the start of the year to earn this advantage also.

BoardsMember

Redzah wrote: »

Yep but the system usually eliminates bandits as they invariably will go to try and win a few comps every year and thus get cut and as the system is based on previous years lowest then it works in this case. Most juniors are trying to get cut as much as they can so if they play well in a current year then they deserve the advantage they get, after all they did earn it. Nothing stopping u going out and practicing hard at the start of the year to earn this advantage also.

How about a wife, kids, a job....:D

Redzah

BoardsMember wrote: »

How about a wife, kids, a job....:D

your choice

BoardsMember

Redzah wrote: »

your choice

Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you :eek:

Redzah

BoardsMember wrote: »

Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you :eek:

Hahaha, who'd have thought a drunken hole in one could ruin a golfing career. Sorry back on topic, i think the handicap advantage that juniors obtain is limited by the experience or lack of, nothing more i love than playing a young hot shot, solid golf will normally win these matches as the poor fella will implode under the pressure as long as u start well, give him a bit of confidence that he can win and you may be in trouble though.

TheDoc

Webbs wrote: »

I think you may have misread the thread. This was to apply to Juniors playing for their 'away' club.
I am guessing you read it as juniors not being allowed to play an away match for their 'home' club.

Apologies, definitely misread

Was wondering why someone wouldnt be allowed play an away match haha

*leaves thread*

Screaminmidget

blue note wrote: »

Actually, just to give an example - the Easter Cup in my club was won by a guy with a net 70 (par 72). The Easter Cup to juniors was won by a lad with 51 points. The juniors needed 45 points to get into the prizes. They were obviously high handicap juniors, but the same principle applies to lower handicap ones, though diluted.

I think this is more down to the club rather than the junior tbh. My brother shot a similar score last week in a junior comp playing off 28. He's not a 28 handicapper but they gave him that handicap. When I joined they made me hand in cards and gave me a handicap based on those cards. They didn't give my brother that option, so he's going to clean up for next few weeks untill his handicap comes down to something more realistic.