Non Automatic gates

cdsb46

Just wondering why both broombridge and ashtown have manual gates when there isn't any obvious reason, or historical importance to these gates, just seems an unnecessary waste of money and time employing people to open the gates, also it seems the gates are opened either too early thus causing huge tailbacks or not opened on time leading to trains having to stop and thus delaying the trains unnecessarily!

goingnowhere

cdsb46 wrote: »

Just wondering why both broombridge and ashtown have manual gates when there isn't any obvious reason, or historical importance to these gates, just seems an unnecessary waste of money and time employing people to open the gates, also it seems the gates are opened either too early thus causing huge tailbacks or not opened on time leading to trains having to stop and thus delaying the trains unnecessarily!

There are gates at Broombridge?

Oh dear we must have missed something, Deco and co are en route to remove them...

Losty Dublin

cdsb46 wrote: »

Just wondering why both broombridge and ashtown have manual gates when there isn't any obvious reason, or historical importance to these gates, just seems an unnecessary waste of money and time employing people to open the gates, also it seems the gates are opened either too early thus causing huge tailbacks or not opened on time leading to trains having to stop and thus delaying the trains unnecessarily!

Both gates have been planned to be closed off for a long time now by Irish Rail. In the case of Broombridge (Reilly's to railwaymen), a road bridge is to replace the level crossing but local objections have hampered Dublin City Council; until it's built the level crossings will stay for now as the cost of an automatic barrier is huge. Ashtown crossing was meant to be closed as part of the development along with Reilly's, for now it too survives for the same reason.

As to the crossing closing, they need to be closed off well ahead of a train in order to allow a clear signal for the oncoming train. Only when the crossing is closed off to the public road can a train get a green light to move towards the crossing; it's the same with all monitored crossing nationwide but as they are on busy roads the tailbacks are noticeable.

Losty Dublin

goingnowhere wrote: »

There are gates at Broombridge?

Oh dear we must have missed something, Deco and co are en route to remove them...

Funny Guy :D:D

zagmund

Was in Austria a few weeks back and they drop the barriers when the trains are within spitting distance of the crossing, travelling at a reasonably high speed. I'm not talking intercity speed, but their fast regional trains.

I've often noticed with Irish crossings that they can be down for a very long time before the train trundles through.

I'm just wondering what it is about their signalling system that allows them to do it that way, while we have the barriers down for ages before the train arrives.

I'm fully aware that we need to be safe and not sorry and I would prefer to sit at the crossing waiting for a train to come along than to end up under the train due to cutting corners or time, but how do they do it ?

z

Stonewolf

Actually studies have shown that long barrier down times reduce safety as people get impatient and try to pass through when it's down.

In the case of manned crossings I'd say they probably just give a massively generous margin for error to account for the "human factor".

Daegerty

How much do automatic gates cost?
For the actual thing itself to buy and install?
I realise over here there will have to be a feasibility study, health and safety training for everyone within 20km, a quango set up and what have you

Stonewolf

Someone posted on here saying it was something like 750 grand.

GerardKeating

zagmund wrote: »

Was in Austria a few weeks back and they drop the barriers when the trains are within spitting distance of the crossing, travelling at a reasonably high speed. I'm not talking intercity speed, but their fast regional trains.

I've often noticed with Irish crossings that they can be down for a very long time before the train trundles through.

I'm just wondering what it is about their signalling system that allows them to do it that way, while we have the barriers down for ages before the train arrives.

I'm fully aware that we need to be safe and not sorry and I would prefer to sit at the crossing waiting for a train to come along than to end up under the train due to cutting corners or time, but how do they do it ?

z

Maybe in Austria, they stop when the lights come on and don't try to beat the train to the crossing...

Losty Dublin

Stonewolf wrote: »

In the case of manned crossings I'd say they probably just give a massively generous margin for error to account for the "human factor".

As I mentioned above, the reason for the wait is because the signals won't allow trains in the section approaching a crossing until the gates are safely closed and clear; only when done a train can proceed. This is the case on lines regardless of a crossing being automatic or manned. The time can seem to be fairly generous at times but it has to allow for the fastest trains on the line as well as the slowest. A Sligo bound train passing Broombridge at 70MPH can be at the gate less than a minute from passing it's signal where as a local service can take a few minutes to allow for acceleration etc.

Vic_08

Stonewolf wrote: »

Actually studies have shown that long barrier down times reduce safety as people get impatient and try to pass through when it's down.

That is only relevant to ungated or half-barrier crossings where it is physically possible for road traffic to enter the crossing while red/closed.

With manual gates or CCTV monitored full barriers the crossings are completely closed off to road traffic and verified clear before the signal protecting it is cleared. Impatient drivers have no choice but to wait.



If as said both these crossings are planned to be replaced by bridges there is no way installing full auto barriers would be a justified expense, even if it a few years before the bridges are built.

thomasj

I thought the reason for these manual crossings still in place were the bridges themselves......

The three that I am thinking, reillys, ashtown and clonsilla.

Maybe I am wrong but don't drivers approach the crossing as soon as they access the bridges arrive at the gates.

Wasn't the whole access aspect of ashtown sorted during the building of the apartments? Wasn't there a thin road that ended at aashtown station.

Could be wrong though.

munchkin_utd

Vic_08 wrote: »

If as said both these crossings are planned to be replaced by bridges there is no way installing full auto barriers would be a justified expense, even if it a few years before the bridges are built.

you can even see here the land strip reserved for the approaches on both sides of the canal for the new bridge at ratoath road, to the right of the existing bridge!
(forward planning in Ireland! What a novelty!)
http://maps.google.de/maps?q=Broombridge,+Dublin+7,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ie=UTF8&hl=en&geocode=FfpmLgMdAOKf_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Broombridge,+Dublin+7,+County+Dublin,+Ireland&ll=53.374618,-6.306581&spn=0.004762,0.013272&t=h&z=17

**Timbuk2**

Level crossings should have some system where trains that are stopping at a station before it should not trigger the barriers until it is ready to move off again - maybe somebody in the control room could overwrite this.

There's probably a few examples, but one I know of is Sydney Parade DART station. There is a level crossing on Ailesbury road that can wait down for extremely long times. The barriers go down ages in advance (because higher-speed trains use this line), then the DART gets slower and slower as it pulls into the station, then it stops (barriers still down), and a minute later it pulls away. Whereas if it was set to only trigger once the DART comes to a stop, it would be shorter.

Cookie_Monster

Stonewolf wrote: »

Someone posted on here saying it was something like 750 grand.

I wonder what the cost of wasted time, burnt fuel and emissions in time spent waiting excessively is. I'm sure that 750k can made back by the economy fairly quickly in such a busy area.

corktina

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

Level crossings should have some system where trains that are stopping at a station before it should not trigger the barriers until it is ready to move off again - maybe somebody in the control room could overwrite this.

There's probably a few examples, but one I know of is Sydney Parade DART station. There is a level crossing on Ailesbury road that can wait down for extremely long times. The barriers go down ages in advance (because higher-speed trains use this line), then the DART gets slower and slower as it pulls into the station, then it stops (barriers still down), and a minute later it pulls away. Whereas if it was set to only trigger once the DART comes to a stop, it would be shorter.

the danger is that the train overshoots the station and hits something on the crossing. To avoid this the gates have to be shut before the train enters the section. Ideally the previous signal would be at the limit of the braking distance required by the train.Frequently though for econmoies sake, the previous signal may be at the previous station many miles before, hence the delay.
Railway signals are not like traffic lights on a road.These only tell you you can cross the junction and nothing about the road ahead. Railway signals tell the driver the next section is clear up to the next signal (simplified version)

Vic_08

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I wonder what the cost of wasted time, burnt fuel and emissions in time spent waiting excessively is. I'm sure that 750k can made back by the economy fairly quickly in such a busy area.

Which is a nice soundbite but how do you propose "the economy" returns the 750k to IE who would have to fund the development? A toll perhaps? Besides, barriers are not substantially quicker than manned gates anyway.

Stonewolf

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I wonder what the cost of wasted time, burnt fuel and emissions in time spent waiting excessively is. I'm sure that 750k can made back by the economy fairly quickly in such a busy area.

Turn your engine off.

Cookie_Monster

Vic_08 wrote: »

Which is a nice soundbite but how do you propose "the economy" returns the 750k to IE who would have to fund the development? A toll perhaps? Besides, barriers are not substantially quicker than manned gates anyway.

it's returned in the massive subvention they get every year
plus you have the payroll and pension savings by having gotten rid of the staff

As Stonewolf pointed out there's a big factor built in to allow for human factors which will add to the time substantially.

Stonewolf wrote: »

Turn your engine off.

it does that automatically anyway

-Corkie-

Where I live you must get out of your car and open the gates yourself and then cross the track. You then get out again and close the gates behind you.

God help the auld Dubs if they had to do that. They would go mad complaining.

dowlingm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you have the payroll and pension savings by having gotten rid of the staff

The payroll savings aren't that much - it's not a well paid position. Automating does bring benefits though if increased services can leverage advantages like:

• autogates don't sleep
• autogates don't mind working Sundays
• autogates don't oversleep leaving a train honking its horn for the keeper to come out in their nightwear

Daegerty

-Corkie- wrote: »

God help the auld Dubs if they had to do that. They would go mad complaining.

They'd put more energy into complaining than it would have taken them to open the gate. Dubs never happy until everything is done for them automatically

dowlingm

dowlingm wrote: »

autogates don't oversleep leaving a train honking its horn for the keeper to come out in their nightwear

I believe this was a regular occurrence on the Sligo line at one point.

thomasj

-Corkie- wrote: »

Where I live you must get out of your car and open the gates yourself and then cross the track. You then get out again and close the gates behind you.

God help the auld Dubs if they had to do that. They would go mad complaining.

Rofl I take it you've never lived in Dublin then!

Could you imagine applying that to the merrion gates or coolmine. It would cause chaos solely because of the traffic levels and number of trains that pass per hour.

I take it you live in a part of cork that has very few trains and traffic is low because otherwise you would be seeing tailbacks on a daily basis

Also aren't iarnrod eireann abolishing these gates because people kept forgetting to close them! Wasn't there an ad with a little Lamb reminding people to keep gates closed. Wasn't there cows killed last year because somehow they managed to get out onto the tracks and were tragically struck causing huge delays for passengers.

Daegerty

thomasj wrote: »

Rofl I take it you've never lived in Dublin then!

Could you imagine applying that to the merrion gates or coolmine. It would cause chaos solely because of the traffic levels and number of trains that pass per hour.

I take it you live in a part of cork that has very few trains and traffic is low because otherwise you would be seeing tailbacks on a daily basis

Also aren't iarnrod eireann abolishing these gates because people kept forgetting to close them! Wasn't there an ad with a little Lamb reminding people to keep gates closed. Wasn't there cows killed last year because somehow they managed to get out onto the tracks and were tragically struck causing huge delays for passengers.

The railway near me is closed unfortunately so there is no fear of delays.

I cant imagine the manual gates for the farmers and small roads going away any time soon and it would be a shame to see something as simple aas that being replaced by big automated yokes.

-Corkie-

thomasj wrote: »

Rofl I take it you've never lived in Dublin then!

Could you imagine applying that to the merrion gates or coolmine. It would cause chaos solely because of the traffic levels and number of trains that pass per hour.

I take it you live in a part of cork that has very few trains and traffic is low because otherwise you would be seeing tailbacks on a daily basis

Also aren't iarnrod eireann abolishing these gates because people kept forgetting to close them! Wasn't there an ad with a little Lamb reminding people to keep gates closed. Wasn't there cows killed last year because somehow they managed to get out onto the tracks and were tragically struck causing huge delays for passengers.

I wasnt implying that such gates be used in Dublin. A train passes every hour and a half on this line.

My point was Dublin people seem to crib about the smallest little things that the rest of the country get on with..

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

The payroll savings aren't that much - it's not a well paid position. Automating does bring benefits though if increased services can leverage advantages

For every manned gate that is closed, between 2 and 5 man shifts a day are eliminated at the gate, depending on it's level of staffing.

However, it costs far more to maintain automatic gates (Electricians are needed to service them regularly while signal interlocking systems are more thoroughly monitored), automatic gates foul lines in the event of power cuts, crashes or failures (unlike manned gates) while they cost large sums of money to install in the first place, money that isn't always to hand.

corktina

automatic half barriers are NOT interlocked with signals and this is where the danger lies.
The Motorist has to realise that the signals MUST be obeyed and the train could be arriving at high speed within 15 seconds or so of the sequence starting. The barriers are approach-controlled by the train.