Mass Attack DVD

Dave Joyce

Just thought I'd share this class clip from the forthcoming Atienza Kali DVD on Mass Attack. Tuhon Carl is a quality instructor and just look at the level of instruction/material available even in this short clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMr01OCJMEQ&feature=player_embedded

And while I'm at it, here is a clip of Daniel Winkler (almost certain he designed the hawks for Last of the Mohicans) who in association with Sayoc Kali made this excellant Tomahawk. Sayoc Tactical were also in attendance at the SHOT show and made some excellant contacts and possible contracts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i16RAg2LLWw&feature=player_embedded

Khannie

Honest question here Dave....

I watched that first video. The people who are "attacking" in it seem very passive compared to a real attacker. How would you rate an art like that for self defence in a street fight versus, say, someone who's an A class thai boxer?

Dave Joyce

No worries Khannie. That is a frequent observation but this particular video is hoping to teach people the AK stratagies towards Mass Attack not showcase Tuhon Carl's prowess. However, having been on the receiving end of some very fecking hard Thai fighters and having been on the receiving end of training/sparring with Tuhon Carl, I can honestly say his ability is frightening and I have no doubt whatsoever he can pull off ANYTHING he teaches.

I'll never forget one of the first times I trained with him and as someone who had trained a lot of stickwork and won at British, European and runner up twice at World level in full contact stickfighting, I felt like he only toyed with me although I tried my damnest AND what was worse was that as he sparred with me, he gave the observers a running commentary on what fighter type I was and when I tried to change my style he was already saying it and the session finished up with me been "changed" into whatever fighter type he wanted. That is the level of the man's abilities. Finally, the Atienza Tuhon's abilities/levels have come from them fighting/sparring with all comers and learning from the experience and they respect all of the styles they have sparred with.

Finally, I would rate the system higher than ANYTHING (well on a par with Sayoc Kali) I've seen in my training to date. Everything in AK is geared towards always facing more than one opponent even if you only have one person in front of you.

Crusher

Watched the video's, does it look to anyone else very Wing Chun'ish?

Sid_Justice

as a martial art it looks like it would look great on tv in a matrix film
as self-defence it looks like nonsense.

p to the e

Hi Dave really enjoyed the Tomahawk video. Is there a reason why they are dressed like SWAT team members or is this the general wear for a demonstration like this? I think I remember Matt Damon saying that Kali was one of the arts used within the Bourne series.

Dave Joyce

Is there a reason why they are dressed like SWAT team members or is this the general wear for a demonstration like this?

That is the general wear for training ie black BDU's and AK Tee Shirt

SorGan

Sid_Justice wrote: »

as a martial art it looks like it would look great on tv in a matrix film
as self-defence it looks like nonsense.

really...based on a 1.43 min vid with a man you've never trained with...sound.

this particular video is hoping to teach people the AK stratagies towards Mass Attack not showcase Tuhon Carl's prowess

its a promo..i got it dave.


Sid_Justice
throw up some vids of you doing some anti blade work and multiple attack stuff so we can critique please,as you obviously? have some exp. in the field of rbsd..... cheers



im surprised you didnt mention walter mitty as per your norm btw.

Sid_Justice

I don't have any videos of me fighting 5 people with knives. If I ever find myself on a film set or time warped back to feudal Japan I'll try and bring a camcorder with me.

There is justification to the 'reduce the odds' concept wrt RBSD and knife attacks but doing drills aimed at disarming and fighting off multiple opponents with, judging from this video, swords is absolutely ludicrous.

What reality are they trying to imitate? Not mine.
What self-defence paradigm are they enforcing? Swim your arms and defend the take down and hope nobody chops your head off.

Apparently knife attacks are on the rise in Ireland, they certainly are in the UK, but i think the primary defenses are more sociological than martial.

Black Sheep

Dave, I have a question if I may-

First of all, I've always thought the Atienza clips are very impressive and I've no doubt Carl Atienza is an amazing martial artist.

What I'm interested in though is that when I see footage of guys stickfighting or sparring with training knives etc. with minimal protection and fairly open rules then it seems to almost always look something like this:-

Dog Brothers sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTKqYkvmdkU

or

Sayoc stickfighting with even less protection:-
http://vimeo.com/4688098

It looks basically like what I would expect an MMA fight to look like if sticks were introduced. Slightly messy, an emphasis on powerful shots, flurrys, timing, cover distance, some clinching and ground fighting etc.

I can never get my head around the disconnect/contrast that seems to exist between the above types of sparring (where it's clear that what works is the simple stuff) this and the very fine motor skills, elaborate trapping and almost movie-style techniques that seem to feature in a lot of FMA. You don't seem to see much of the trapping or very close-in stickwork, stick disarms, standing joint-locks etc ?

Dave Joyce

What I'm interested in though is that when I see footage of guys stickfighting or sparring with training knives etc. with minimal protection and fairly open rules then it seems to almost always look something like this:-

I posted this clip to show Mass Attack from an AK perspective and I'm not going to move away and discuss other areas because this is what I want to discuss. However, if you want me to critique other systems this is something I am not comfortable with. You do post the Dog Brothers clip so the only thing I want to say is with regard to one piece during the clip where you can clearly see one guy having difficulty deploying his blade and another where a guy forgets/doesn't bother to use his. In true blade systems, deployment is one of the most critical areas, comparable with a boxers jab or wrestlers shoot. Black Sheep, your final paragraph discusses abilities in stickwork but that is a whole different area and would need a different thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwkbWSzWLpY

Have a look AND a LISTEN to what Tuhon Carl is talking about and you MAY get an insight into the level of his knowledge/teaching ability.....that is for those who have ANY idea of what he is talking about.

Black Sheep

However, if you want me to critique other systems this is something I am not comfortable with

Actually I was just trying to ask a question about why FMAs train the way they do. There are few enough active threads about the FMA on here so it didn't seem like a bad opportunity.

I posted this clip to show Mass Attack from an AK perspective and I'm not going to move away and discuss other areas because this is what I want to discuss

Fair enough.

Dyr

Black Sheep wrote: »

You don't seem to see much of the trapping or very close-in stickwork, stick disarms, standing joint-locks etc ?

The first takedown in the dogbrothers clip has the stick being used as a lever from an inverted grip. Sometimes it's there when you know what to look for.

Black Sheep

I did say

You don't seem to see much of the trapping or very close-in stickwork, stick disarms, standing joint-locks etc ?

Hey, maybe I'm wrong, hence the question - but there does appear to me to be a fair difference between what this looks like when pressure-tested versus what many FMA groups do in training? The sticky-hands, a lot of fine motor skills, elaborate strategies for passing and entering lots of ways etc. Then in the sparring it's like MMA with a stick. As a previous poster said it sometimes the Atienza and Sayoc clips look almost like film choreography being worked out, in contrast.

Dyr

Black Sheep wrote: »

Hey, maybe I'm wrong, hence the question - but there does appear to me to be a fair difference between what this looks like when pressure-tested versus what many FMA groups do in training? The sticky-hands, a lot of fine motor skills, elaborate strategies for passing and entering lots of ways etc

You're answering your own question. Many traps and disarms require fine motor skills and coordination, that require's a good deal of skill to pull off under pressure. You don't see them often because sometimes the technique is just not viable or sometimes because people have not got the skill, confidence or experience to pull it off.

Same with corto stick striking, it can work if the circumstances are right or you can dictate them.

One of the things that's suprised me over the years is seeing people utilize "fancy" material from drills that I considered impractical in sparring. Recently I learned one stick drill that I thought was completely impractical. That same night in sparring I wound up using it as did the other guy who had been taught it. You never can tell.

Black Sheep wrote: »

Then in the sparring it's like MMA with a stick. As a previous poster said it sometimes the Atienza and Sayoc clips look almost like film choreography being worked out, in contrast.

Like Dave said, you're comparing two disparate things. Sayoc knife drills, for example are not about sparring.

Martin25

Dave thats very high quality Kali have you any seminars comming up?
Martin

Dave Joyce

Well unfortunately Tuhon Carl is so busy with all of the various projects he's involved in the States, it won't be anytime soon. One alternative however, could be a massive summer camp coming up in England this summer. I'll post more details as soon as a lot of things are finalised Martin :-)