The Male Brain & Football?

Fittle

I have a young son (8) who is soccer mad. He only began to kick a ball last year, but now plays on a team and collects Match Attax. So as his mum, I do as much as I can to encourage his love of the game - I grew up with a load of brothers, and luckily, quite like the sport myself. So we watch soccer on TV as much as we can (we don't have SkySports) and recently began watching the Setanta half-hour programmes on games in the late 90's (classic Liverpool vs Man U games etc).

The child has become soccers answer to Einstein overnight. (This same child is unfortunately not Einstein in school). He can now watch half-hour highlights of a game that was played 12 yrs before he was born, and 2 days later, can still be chatting about who passed the ball to whom, how many corners/free kicks there were and whether or not a disallowed goal was actually off-side after all. He can name almost every player in the Premier League (thanks to Match Attax) and can tell you what country they play for, how many goals they've scored for their country and if indeed, they even play internationally.

We watched the FA cup match on Saturday - I remember the score, I vaguely remember who scored but I cannot tell you who passed the ball to whom, or ANY of the moves on the pitch. He, on the other hand, can repeat the game (almost) word for word.

And this has gotten me thinking generally about football (or perhaps it's any sport?) and the male brain and how men can absorb such detail in matches that (generally) women can't - even if the women like the sport as much as the men. My brothers can recite pass by pass, football matches that happened in the 70s in Lansdowne Road and it continues to amaze me how mens brains work in relation to soccer (or other sports) in general?
Thoughts?

Zombrex

Football is a modern extension of the evolved instincts men traditionally have around tribal warfare. Women's brains have evolved to have less need for these processes and as such find it more difficult to remember and more significantly anticipate what people do or will do on the pitch.

seamus

Wicknight wrote: »

Football is a modern extension of the evolved instincts men traditionally have around tribal warfare. Women's brains have evolved to have less need for these processes and as such find it more difficult to remember and more significantly anticipate what people do or will do on the pitch.

That would be my guess, it's something along the lines of hunting and warfare.

I think it's all down to the group dynamic and tactics. The man remembers where people were, in what formation they were and what actions they took. This allows them to re-use that information in future hunts/battles and recall these details to others for similar usage.

It also links into patterns and as Wicknight says, the brain will recognise a pattern in either the opposition's setup or his own group's setup and be able to formulate and anticipate possible outcomes based on previous occasions when that pattern was seen.

opinion guy

I'm a male and I cannot remember the slightest details about a football match. Never could. I too, cannot fathom the details many remember.

But I don't think there is any big mystery too it. Its just a question of passion for the subject. Those who remember these encyclopedic details love the sport. Personally it bores me to tears. As to yourself I would say from your post - you like football, but you don't seem to love it. Find a girl who loves it and she will most likely remember the minute details also.

Fittle

seamus wrote: »

It also links into patterns and as Wicknight says, the brain will recognise a pattern in either the opposition's setup or his own group's setup and be able to formulate and anticipate possible outcomes based on previous occasions when that pattern was seen.

So this even happens in very young boys?

I am genuinely amazed that a boy who could take ten minutes to learn his 12 times tables, and then can't remember them 5 minutes later, can remember the name of all the romanian players who took penalties in the infamous penalty shoot-out in 1990 (after watching it a few times on youtube).

He has quite liked other sports in his short life - gaelic football and hurling for example - but certainly has no memory for it, the way he has for soccer. Does this happen with soccer specifically, or any sport men might have a passion for?

Wolfe Tone

Its because he really likes football. If he loved his maths he would remember his times tables.

Fittle

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its because he really likes football. If he loved his maths he would remember his times tables.

It really is THAT simple?

opinion guy

Fittle wrote: »

It really is THAT simple?

Pretty much.

Fittle

But see I love music - for example - and a certain band. I can sing along to their tunes - I have all the cd's etc etc. But I couldn't go into much more detail about them than that they play music that I love. And I know many women like me - who have a passion for something, be it music/art/writing/whatever - but few of them would know the level of detail of their 'passion' as men do about football!

Denerick

I used to be like this when I was 11 or 12. I used to read all of the football magazines and watch classic games on TV. I used to be a wealth of information on who won the third place world cup playoff in 1962.. all that kind of stuff. Since then my brain has degenerated mightily, and I can only watch a game of football if half drunk. That is the real progression of the male brain. We start off bright and knowledgable only to end up as cynical and ignorant.

mikemac

I don't know the exact quote

But there was a famous American TV host who more or less said
"Some say Americans are stupid but ask one a question on some obscure baseball statistic and you'd be amazed"

If you love something you'd much more likely to learn it.
There was a time when I could list every Formula one world champion since 1950 easily.
Or list all 24 nations at Italia 90 in alphabetical order.

This is what your young lad is doing.
He's bright but if he's forgetting his tables, well he's just not passionate about it and absorbing.

Sure if your husband is a mad golfer, he could probably list every shot and picture them all if you ask him when he comes home to dinner

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Its because he really likes football. If he loved his maths he would remember his times tables.

Yep, it realy is as simple as that

seamus

I've seen women talking about clothes and shopping so I'm not sure if this kind of fact retention is limited to men. While we may be able to list off the full part number of every bit in our car, women can say, "You know that lilac-ey bag in topshop with the metal bucle and the kind of diamond-ey things on the strap?" and all her mates will know exactly the bag she's talking about.

That still amazes me - there are thousands of (all very similar!) pieces of women's clothing in the women's clothes shops across country, yet by just mentioning 2 or 3 keywords, my wife will recognise exactly the one that her friend is talking about.

I really do think that passion for the topic is more important than brain wiring in particular. Children are sponges for information. I imagine a little girl who likes Beiber can probably cite off all of his albums, the song on those albums and what order they come in. Possibly even the length too. Same thing really, just a different passion.

opinion guy

seamus wrote: »

I imagine a little girl who likes Beiber can probably cite off all of his albums, the song on those albums and what order they come in. Possibly even the length too. Same thing really, just a different passion.

But passion for Beiber's "music" is more wrong than passion for sport or handbags

Fittle

I get that women and mens passions are different and that men don't get how we can remember the texture and price and rail we saw a handbag on, last Saturday.

But seriously, it's more the attention to detail with football - like I couldn't remember the texture, price and rail I saw a handbag on in 1988 - but there are men who can still remember 'moves' from Euro 88 (was that the one where Haughton scored?)...

I keep referring to football here, purely because it is what I now have knowledge of - perhaps it's the same for all sports for men.


'Since then my brain has degenerated mightily, and I can only watch a game of football if half drunk. That is the real progression of the male brain.'

Brilliant!

opinion guy

Fittle wrote: »

I get that women and mens passions are different and that men don't get how we can remember the texture and price and rail we saw a handbag on, last Saturday.

Don't forget about colours!!! You people see colours we've never even heard of!!!

But seriously, it's more the attention to detail with football - like I couldn't remember the texture, price and rail I saw a handbag on in 1988 - but there are men who can still remember 'moves' from Euro 88 (was that the one where Haughton scored?)...

I keep referring to football here, purely because it is what I now have knowledge of - perhaps it's the same for all sports for men.

Its the social aspect. Men down the pub trying to one-up each other on what they know. There is a definite competitive aspect to it.

KERSPLAT!

opinion guy wrote: »

Don't forget about colours!!! You people see colours we've never even heard of!!!


Its the social aspect. Men down the pub trying to one-up each other on what they know. There is a definite competitive aspect to it.

This! Me and my mate are very competitive, 2nd guessing everything. Things as slight as knowing a footballers age

"I think he's 23 nearly 24" then me "AGGGGHHHHH your wrong!!! *checks google to rub in mates face* "

It pays (pride wise) for me to know the little details

Fittle

opinion guy wrote: »

Its the social aspect. Men down the pub trying to one-up each other on what they know. There is a definite competitive aspect to it.

Yep, but my 8yr old's not down the pub just yet - I'm waiting till he's AT LEAST 9;).

I really think it's a boy/man thing - I know 8/9yr old girls and they really wouldn't and couldn't go into the detail of something they are passionate about, that my lad and his 7yr old mates do.......'Nooooo Xavi (pronounced correctly) plays mid for Barca and his birthday is in January...hes 31...ur thinking of Hernandez who plays for Man U..they have the same FIRST name...' my lad said to his 7yr old pal on Saturday:eek::eek:

I was online and googled what he was saying...
What I want to know is WHO TOLD HIM THIS STUFF - how does he know!!!!!
This child can't remember where to put his dirty socks at bedtime and he remembers that Xavi is 31:mad::mad:

mikemac

You need to work football into his tables!

12 x 1 = 12 clean sheets for Man City this season
12 x 2 = 24 goals for top scorer last season
12 x 3 = 36 points likely needed to avoid relegation
And so on
I've no checked those stats, you can come with better ones

opinion guy

Fittle wrote: »

Yep, but my 8yr old's not down the pub just yet - I'm waiting till he's AT LEAST 9;).

The school playground at break time is the 8 year old pub. Boys are always trying to one up themselves about this stuff. Used to drive me nuts as a kid as I had zero interest.

I really think it's a boy/man thing - I know 8/9yr old girls and they really wouldn't and couldn't go into the detail of something they are passionate about, that my lad and his 7yr old mates do.......'Nooooo Xavi (pronounced correctly) plays mid for Barca and his birthday is in January...hes 31...ur thinking of Hernandez who plays for Man U..they have the same FIRST name...' my lad said to his 7yr old pal on Saturday:eek::eek:

I don't think the girls compete about it thou do they ? Do you compete with your gal-pals about shoe-knowledge ?

I was online and googled what he was saying...
What I want to know is WHO TOLD HIM THIS STUFF - how does he know!!!!!
This child can't remember where to put his dirty socks at bedtime and he remembers that Xavi is 31:mad::mad:

Other kids in school yard maybe told him. His dad might have told him. Maybe he googled it

Fittle

That makes sense, about the school playground being the pub for 8yr olds:D

His dad's not in the picture, just myself and himself which makes me wonder more and more about how he knows these things - but you're right of course - all boys school, it's the yard.

Anyway, I still think it's a male wire in the brain of somesort.

You're also right about women not competing about knowlege of stuff - these young boys do that alright. The girls don't.

clln

Difficult to know exactly why a male of such a young age would get so interested so quickly,but there is a lot of peer pressure to take an interest.
If his male roll model is a soccer fan that also adds further pressure to like it if you want to be 'one of the guys'.

The game became so popular because even the poorest children from a very poor Nation could roll a ball of paper tied with elastic and play sport at no price.

also us men are not allowed to talk about our feelings much and i for one envy the way women support each other much more than men do.
men feel 'connected' to others through soccer.
the pressure to be macho can make men feel lonely.
that same pressure can make a bloke force himself to pretend to like soccer to avoid feelings of rejection.

Morag

Girls do it in their own way.
And not all boys are into soccer.

Standman

Wicknight wrote: »

Football is a modern extension of the evolved instincts men traditionally have around tribal warfare. Women's brains have evolved to have less need for these processes and as such find it more difficult to remember and more significantly anticipate what people do or will do on the pitch.

Is there actual evidence for this?

nyarlothothep

It could be cultural, ie men should like football, war and grunting, women should like pink, make up blah blah blah. I tried to like football and the GAA, played a few games when I was a kid, my reasoning being that if so many others liked it there could be something good about it that I was missing, but I just ended up in my original default position of having no interest in it whatsoever.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Valmont

Wicknight wrote: »

Football is a modern extension of the evolved instincts men traditionally have around tribal warfare. Women's brains have evolved to have less need for these processes and as such find it more difficult to remember and more significantly anticipate what people do or will do on the pitch.

This is a remarkably suspect theory. Could you perhaps explain what you mean or furnish some evidence? I have a real problem with evolutionary explanations of human behaviour as they are essentially unfalsifiable in many cases.

You also seem to be lumping all football fans in together as loud angry louts. Many are, but many are not.

prinz

It's just different things for different people. I'd have trouble remembering sports scores from one weekend to the next (unless it was a big match).. but I could tell you some random fact that I remember from an answer of University Challenge a few weeks back and then remember I forgot to buy the milk like I was supposed to. Just depends what you are passionate about, and through our lives these things change.

My father could give you a running commentary on hurling and soccer matches going back decades, score, who scored what, time of scores, who is descended from which players etc. Just not my thing, I love watching some sports. However at your sons age I could name you pretty much every capital city in the world, mountains, rivers, cities, ports, currencies etc because I went through a phase of studying maps and an atlas. Screw football, being an explorer was where it was at back then! Your son might stick with it, or he might grow out of it. It's not really a gender issue IMO, it's mostly an interest/passion issue. For some lads maybe it's computer games, for others soccer stats. Particularly if it involves card trading/games etc.

Fittle

prinz wrote: »

My father could give you a running commentary on hurling and soccer matches going back decades, score, who scored what, time of scores, who is descended from which players etc.

And just in keeping with the 'gender' issue, could your mother give you a running commentary on ANYTHING close to the detail your father would have?

opinion guy

Fittle wrote: »

And just in keeping with the 'gender' issue, could your mother give you a running commentary on ANYTHING close to the detail your father would have?

My mother can give me details on any car crash, house break-in, highly unlikely mishap, or assault thats happen in the last five years

prinz

Fittle wrote: »

And just in keeping with the 'gender' issue, could your mother give you a running commentary on ANYTHING close to the detail your father would have?

The local gossip ... food recipes is like a photographic memory (ingredients, times, temperatures, amounts etc), and her own interests in childcare issues (she'd be able to reference books, authors, ideas etc in conversation no problem although it's only a hobby more or less). She'd also sit down in front of the TV and try to use a mobile phone as a remote control.

Steodonn

Fittle wrote: »

Yep, but my 8yr old's not down the pub just yet - I'm waiting till he's AT LEAST 9;).

I really think it's a boy/man thing - I know 8/9yr old girls and they really wouldn't and couldn't go into the detail of something they are passionate about, that my lad and his 7yr old mates do.......'Nooooo Xavi (pronounced correctly) plays mid for Barca and his birthday is in January...hes 31...ur thinking of Hernandez who plays for Man U..they have the same FIRST name...' my lad said to his 7yr old pal on Saturday:eek::eek:

I was online and googled what he was saying...
What I want to know is WHO TOLD HIM THIS STUFF - how does he know!!!!!
This child can't remember where to put his dirty socks at bedtime and he remembers that Xavi is 31:mad::mad:

Thats an easy one. Xavi is one of the most famous footballers/people in the world. If your interested in football its easy to remember. I like football so I know alot about it. On the other hand I have to friends who are big into cars and bikes can go on on for ages about them. Some guys in my school into GAA go on and on about
All depends what your into

K-9

It's a strange one. I'd have been into GAA when I was a young lad. Ask me the Ulster Championship winners from about 78 - 00 and I can still rhyme them off and how they lost in the AI S/F from 78- to 85 and 87-90. From about 00 on, I'd find it hard to remember.

I think it's childhood memories and somethings we just remember.

Tbh, most men love pointless stats and trivia!

Fittle

K-9 wrote: »

Tbh, most men love pointless stats and trivia!

Perhaps it's just as simple as that so - but my question really is, is that a purely male thing and if so, why? Are our brains wired differently so that men love pointless stats and trivia and women love dresses and bags, or is it society doing that to us?

I remember seeing a documentary (no link sorry) years back about an experiment done on two newborns - one female, one male. They basically gave the girl boys toys and the boy, girls toys for the first year of their lives...and of course, as they got older, the girl still loved cars and the boy still loved pink, proving that it was society that made them 'girly' or 'boyish' and not because of their gender...it was back in the day before I had a child myself but I'd love to find it somewhere, if anyone else can remember it.

K-9

Fittle wrote: »

Perhaps it's just as simple as that so - but my question really is, is that a purely male thing and if so, why? Are our brains wired differently so that men love pointless stats and trivia and women love dresses and bags, or is it society doing that to us?

I remember seeing a documentary (no link sorry) years back about an experiment done on two newborns - one female, one male. They basically gave the girl boys toys and the boy, girls toys for the first year of their lives...and of course, as they got older, the girl still loved cars and the boy still loved pink, proving that it was society that made them 'girly' or 'boyish' and not because of their gender...it was back in the day before I had a child myself but I'd love to find it somewhere, if anyone else can remember it.

Society definitely plays a part, I remember that documentary too, was it the one where they follow a group of children growing up?

Then again tests show that men are just better at certain things. C4 did a programme testing women on map reading and another one comparing men and women and driving a digger with no training, men just tend to be better at these things, with exceptions to the rule. I don't think that is society, just male and female brains being hard wired a certain way.

seamus

Fittle wrote: »

I remember seeing a documentary (no link sorry) years back about an experiment done on two newborns - one female, one male. They basically gave the girl boys toys and the boy, girls toys for the first year of their lives...and of course, as they got older, the girl still loved cars and the boy still loved pink, proving that it was society that made them 'girly' or 'boyish' and not because of their gender...it was back in the day before I had a child myself but I'd love to find it somewhere, if anyone else can remember it.

It's more complex than that though in reality. The child could associate the toy or the colour or the activity with happiness or with their parent (i.e. the person giving them the toy), which adds biase/complexity into the experiment.

Similar gender-neutrality experiments have done similar things - raising children on gender-neutral toys and then later exposing them to gender-specific toys, but without encouraging the child to take a line either way. They still found that boys tended to take guns and construction toys and girls still tended to take the dolls.

But even that's inconclusive because there's a fair argument to say that there are subtle social things shaping a child's attitudes. So even with gender-neutral toys, interactions with their peers and role models will affect their preferences.

I used to think that children were something of blank canvasses and all (or at least 99%) of a person's identity was imprinted/developed during childhood. But I got a niece and nephew last year in close proximity who have turned out to be two very different children a year on. The key parts of their personality (whether they're loud or quiet, nosey or simply curious, etc) manifested within a few days of birth and have persisted up to now.
So that leads me to believe that while childhood plays a major factor in shaping the adult, it's very possible that core pieces of mental wiring are laid down from birth (and before) and to some degree the person that we are going to be is largely predetermined.

Fittle

seamus wrote: »

I used to think that children were something of blank canvasses and all (or at least 99%) of a person's identity was imprinted/developed during childhood. But I got a niece and nephew last year in close proximity who have turned out to be two very different children a year on. The key parts of their personality (whether they're loud or quite, nosey or simply curious, etc) manifested within a few days of birth and have persisted up to now.

That is true of all children from my experience - I've a ton of nephews and nieces and those that were placid/happy babies, have grown into 'happy' adults (happy being the wrong word there, but you get the gist). And those that cried from the moment they were born, or moaned about wanting this or that as toddlers, tend to still have those types of personalities (they are the ones I see less of these days;))

So back to my OP which was not necessarily that men like football more than women...but that their memories in relation to football trivia astounds me, and now my own lad has himself become a football trivia wiz, it has me questioning mens ability to 'love pointless stats and trivia'.

Perhaps it's because I have a very bad memory myself (for detail, anyhow) that makes me think this is an amazing quality that alot of men I know have...

mikemac

Fittle wrote: »

Perhaps it's because I have a very bad memory myself (for detail, anyhow) that makes me think this is an amazing quality that alot of men I know have...

I bet there is some subject you are passionate about and you know a huge amount about it.

For example the mammy could list off countless recepies with 400g of this and 200g of that and roast for 30 minutes at 200 degrees and then throw in a hundred other variables and still remember it all.
Watch a cooking show (where is Darina Allen these days ) and remember every word.

Me? I'd have forgotten it all
I can list every team from Italia 90 in alphabetical order though :cool:

So Fittle, I don't think it's such a huge difference between men and women. And nowadays girls are doing better at exams, reports come out every year on the JC and LC
Just finding a subject you're interested in and testing yourself and chatting with friends and in no time you'd have a huge knowledge and your son is doing this every day

just-joe

So can I ask why it is easier for us to learn/remember things which we are interested in? Maybe its a simple "it is what it says on the tin" answer, but if there is a more technical one, I'd like to hear it. Like a different part of the brain switches on, or our brain is automatically more spongy/active or something.

Cos I am the same, I can remember japanese names for judo throws, chord progressions on the guitar etc etc just reading them once. But as a maths student, concentrating hard on definitions (which I understood), I could read them 20 times and still not remember them correctly.


I guess this also manifests itself when doing introductions, you forget all the new names except the one of the girl you thought was cute. Why does that happen?!:D

K-9

It seems if you are good at certain things, chances are you wont be at others.

I'm terrible at grammar, but decent at spelling and maths. Many the solictor who is terrible at Maths!

SugarHigh

K-9 wrote: »

It seems if you are good at certain things, chances are you wont be at others.

I'm terrible at grammar, but decent at spelling and maths. Many the solictor who is terrible at Maths!

I really don't think that's true. IQ tests have shown that those who are good in one area of the test are normally good in the others.