Situation in Japan

kippy

Hi All,
Apologies if this is not the correct forum, please feel free to move.
Obviously the last few days have been particularly horrific for Japan and indeed they face a major mountain in order to tidy up the mess from the earthquake and tsunami.
However one of the most worrying parts of the whole thing have been with the issues at their nuclear plants. One of which has had two explosions due to pressure inside the reactor.
I am not entirely familiar with the operation of these reactors but have a good idea of the basics. From what I can tell the issues are occuring as the cooling system as well as the diesel backup cooling systems have been knocked out by the tsunami. As such some of the plants are using seawater to cool the reactors (which I believe will mean that the reactors will become inoperable in the long run).
Anyways based on all of this the question I have to ask is why they dont just shut down the reactors altogether? Isn't the whole point of the rods to control the reaction levels and to shut down the reactor if required?
Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way so any clarification is appreciated.

whatstherush

kippy wrote: »

Anyways based on all of this the question I have to ask is why they dont just shut down the reactors altogether? Isn't the whole point of the rods to control the reaction levels and to shut down the reactor if required?
Perhaps I am looking at this the wrong way so any clarification is appreciated.

Found this on a physics forum, after shutting down the rector they still have to be cooled for several days.

When the reactor shutdowns, there is still some heat being generated from the decaying fission products. "At the moment of reactor shutdown, decay heat will be about 7% of the previous core power if the reactor has had a long and steady power history. About 1 hour after shutdown, the decay heat will be about 1.5% of the previous core power. After a day, the decay heat falls to 0.4%, and after a week it will be only 0.2%." Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decay_h...rs_in_shutdown

So it is important to cool the reactor for several days following shutdown.

Source

Professor_Fink

kippy wrote: »

Anyways based on all of this the question I have to ask is why they dont just shut down the reactors altogether? Isn't the whole point of the rods to control the reaction levels and to shut down the reactor if required?

They have shut down the chain reaction. The problem is that the fission byproducts are also radioactive, and continue to decay causing the reactor to remain hot. Apparently in a reactor which has been running as long as the Fukushima reactors as much as 10% of the heat can come from these byproducts, which are not really moderated by the control rods, since the decay paths are different (with different types of radiation produced). See here for a fuller explanation.

snowstreams

Since a partial meltdown seems to have occured in the reactors, does this mean that fission process can no longer be moderated?
And the only option now is to add neutron absorption materials?
If this is the case surely there could be an awful lot more heat still to be generated by the damaged reactor.

Professor_Fink

That will depend on the exact layout of the core and the exact extent of the partial meltdown. Information I don't have.

FISMA

kippy wrote: »

Hi All,
One of which has had two explosions due to pressure inside the reactor.

From what I have heard, the radioactive core/reactor was not the source of the explosion. Rather, the containment facility. The difference is orders of magnitude of radiation.

Thus, we are nowhere near the level of a Chernobyl.

Concerning is the failure of the fail safe systems. Resulting to seawater is scary.

Have a look here, tifwiw
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7359671n&tag=related;photovideo

amen

10% of the heat

this is what I don't get. They have all of these fail safe power systems to pump water to cater for the case of power failure but they have a power source right there with the 10% heat souce. Why didn't they consider using this to circulate water in case of total external power failure?

Professor_Fink

amen wrote: »

this is what I don't get. They have all of these fail safe power systems to pump water to cater for the case of power failure but they have a power source right there with the 10% heat souce. Why didn't they consider using this to circulate water in case of total external power failure?

Because it is in a damaged nuclear reactor which they are trying deperately to cool.

amen

Because it is in a damaged nuclear reactor which they are trying deperately to cool.

I get that is damaged. But initial reports of events were
1: Earthqauke. Rods were put down to slow reaction
2: Tsunami hit
3: Backup electrical supply failed to kick in
4: Diesel generators started.
5: So far everything is fine
6: Fuel supply is exhausted.
7: Still not external electrical power
8: Core temp rises as no cooling.

So why not have a small generator powered by the excess heat to cool the reactor? this would only kick in during emergencies.

Why no gravity feed water supplies? Where the plant is operating normally power is used to divert the flow.

Professor_Fink

amen wrote: »

So why not have a small generator powered by the excess heat to cool the reactor? this would only kick in during emergencies.

Is there any indication that the turbines remain in a workable state? I'm really not sure what the status of them is. If they were damaged, then it is reasonable to assume that any similar backup system would have been too. The place did get hit by a tsunami after all. It would likely have severely damaged some of the control infrastructure.

amen wrote: »

Why no gravity feed water supplies? Where the plant is operating normally power is used to divert the flow.

I think you are underestimating the amount of water involved. I believe a single pool for the spent rods holds 1200 tonnes of water, a large portion of which can boil in a reasonably short time.

ifconfig

Someone I know who tends to pay more heed to the vested interests in the nuclear industry experts told me he was reassurred by hearing one of these "experts" saying that , in general, these spent nuclear rods can cool down safely of their own accord with no assisted cooling
This seems very incorrect to me and contrary to what we are seeing.

I mean why do they need to immerse the spent rods in pools if this is the case and why did the pools ignite a fire when, apparently the immersion level of the surrounding water went low ?

Surely that statement .. that they can cool safely of their own accord is utter nonesense ?

Something more worrying I have heard is that the metallurgical properties and solid state properties of the rods can become less amenable to cooling due to structural "gaps" occurring which reduce the ability of newly introduced coolant to conduct away the excess heat.

-ifc

Professor_Fink

ifconfig wrote: »

Surely that statement .. that they can cool safely of their own accord is utter nonesense ?

I assume he meant the fuel rods in the core. The main sorce of heat for them once the control rods are in place is radioactive fission products. These have a much shorter half-life, and so the amount reduces noticably over the course of a few weeks once the reaction is shut off, meaning the rods produce less heat.

ifconfig

Thanks for that Prof Fink.
So where is the heat dissipation coming from in the case of spent rods.
Were they removed when still active, i.e no control rods inserted prior to their removal from the active core ?

-ifc

kippy

ifconfig wrote: »

Thanks for that Prof Fink.
So where is the heat dissipation coming from in the case of spent rods.
Were they removed when still active, i.e no control rods inserted prior to their removal from the active core ?

-ifc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_fuel_pool
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081016153137AA0wN6y

This has been a very informative topic, thanks to all so far.

ifconfig

kippy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spent_fuel_pool
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081016153137AA0wN6y

This has been a very informative topic, thanks to all so far.

Those links are interesting and prescient.
The wikipedia one is most informative.
It is interesting to see that Yahoo answers Q&A with contributions over 2 yrs old.
The most popular answer accords with the very dismissive analysis which seems to give a very benign read on what can happen when spent fuel rods aren't carefully cooled and managed and the risk analysis on what would happen if coolant was removed for a reasonable period of time.

Can anyone give a critique on the (chosen) answer given in that link above ?

derry

The big issues are where is all that nuclear crap going to
How bad could it get
How much real info do they give us or how much they hide from us the truth

these peices of info could help

Volintary groups with Geiger counters in the USA post up results
http://radiationnetwork.com/
Also they require any extra people from Euroland with Geiger counters to do the same thing
So far no jump in radation levels to 100 clicks per minute compared to normal level of 5 to sixty click per second


1600 times the normal radiation detected in town in Japan beside the nuke plants on fire


http://www.infowars.com/corporate-media-ignores-astronomical-fukushima-radiation-levels/

also from same source short less than three minutes you tube film report RT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxAv-REH5ZA&feature=player_embedded

The rough story is when radio activity reached dangerous to humans health level all the nuclear reactors were all totally abondoned by the nuke staff to thier fate for a few hours a few days ago

The head of Prefecture when he heard that went ape and declared that letting 25% of the japanese Island bcome a nuclear wasteland forever wasnt a option

So since then the team of 200 of nuclear technitians in four groups of fivty in shifts on a suicide mission have returned to fight the fires and so forth

Also a suicide squad of several hundred police and firemen have been also been draghted to go in and spray sea water onto the nuclear power stations

The helicopters gave up as they were getting too high a level of radation exposure if they went closer to drop water on the plants

Nuclear plants no 4 ,5 and no 6 were in maintinace mode when the earth quake happened

The explosion in reactor no 3 a MOX plant using plutonuim a more toxic fuel caused rubble to break the containment wall of reactor no 4 .
There the spent fuel rods in the roof due to some issues where the water either boiled off or leaked away allowed the spent fuel rods to catch fire. The fire was put out possibly several times
The explosion which destroyed the roofs in the reactor no 1 and no 3 meant the several thousand spent fuel rods which were stored in the roof regions were smashed to peices and sent skywards .
The radiation from this event was then caught in the wind and has drifted across the pacific to the USA and Iceland and should start falling out over Ireland some time soon maybe today

As the radation levels get less with the square of the distance the expected levels that might be reaching Ireland are in this time small


However there is 600,000 spent fuel rods from 40 years of power generation in the plants something like 6000 tons of nuclear radioactive materials. Chernobal was about 180 tons of nuclear rod material that burnt and went skywards

The estimates are that reactor no 4 burning event with some 1000 tons of spent fuel rods was easily one Chernobal event in itself to the local Japan region

If the nuke plants contiue to catch fire and the fires spread to include all these all fuel rods then that would make this accident something like 30 Chernobals events

If its all just fires most radation would fall close to the nuclear power stations

If there is a massive explosion the results could effect the world itself

So far it is estimated that this is now easily twice as severe to the local japanses region as five Chernobal events in terms of radio activity

The estimates from some sources are that with the time frames to get the reactors cooled down and encased in concrete tombs will maybe exceed 5 Chernobal events to the japanse region

The main reason that most radation hasnt been getting to us world wide is that the majority wasnt ejected in a huge fire or explosion where the radation would reach the jet streams that pass over japan .

Th heavier plutonuim and Uranuim has fallen close to the nuke plant and a lot of the lighter material has fallen into the Pacific ocean

However expert state there exists fears that there could be a sorta type of nuclear explosion similar to what happened in Russia in 1957 where nuclear waste in a nuke waste dump collected together and exploded in a type of nuclear explosion .

A complete meltdown in any nuke reactor risks to replicate the Russian accident and creat a massive nuclear explosion

If that happened experts state this would be easily a 30 Chernobal accident event that would impact all the northern hemishere nearly as bad as a nuclear winter event would with massive high radation level nuke fallout events and would roughly equal 5000 nuclear bombs going off interms of radation fallout

It has been noticable how many of the really rich people of the world have all suddenly gone to thier ranches in South America or Australia
Really rich Japanese are hiring exective jets at 1/2 a million euro per seat to get out of Japan

So if the pucker factor was a measure of how much risk that the whole nuke plant will blow to kingdom com the rats heading south suggest the odds are very high

Derry

derry

It seems that reactor Three is putting out ion beams which is most possible that fission events in the pile are taking place and increasing th heat exponentionly
This reactor is a MOX type which uses plutonuim oxide and Uranuim oxide fuels
It seems that this probably means the reactor is in full melt down
The molten Plutonuim wll go to the bottom with molten Uranuim on top of that and other lighter radio active material floating on top of that molton pile
That means that if one of the layers should be ignited from factors like what happened in Russia in 1957 in a cooling pile dumping ground the pile will get closer to critical mass and then start to make a chain reaction and make a large dirty bomb nuclear explosion
This will take into the sky the entire 600.000 spent fuels into the jet streams of the planet and equal something like ~5000 nuclear bomb event in terms of fall out and could lead to a nuclear winter event
more info here
http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/mar11/AlexJones/0324111.mp3

Derry

kippy

derry wrote: »

This will take into the sky the entire 600.000 spent fuels into the jet streams of the planet and equal something like ~5000 nuclear bomb event in terms of fall out and could lead to a nuclear winter event
more info here
http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/mar11/AlexJones/0324111.mp3

Derry

Surely not!

Professor_Fink

kippy wrote: »

Surely not!

It's fear-mongering nonsense. The situation in Fukushima is serious, but it's not the apocalypse.

derry

kippy wrote: »

Surely not!

Nice simple one liner based on massive knowlege of the Nuclear power industry .

The point of starting a thread on this subject is not to look for re-assurance that this far away event is a acidemic exersize in how sorry we feel for the Japanese people getting fried by the nuclear accident

Its also not to reassure ourself's that the so called experts who we believed in who said that it was impssible for a fatal nuclear event, could be so so wrong
Now we witnesss four nuclear events that will all prove to be fatal to some peoples

We can continue to bury our heads in the sand and assume the nuke experts are telling us the truth but then we could look the latest info from DR Busby ( who the BBC sometimes employ's as thier Nuke expert ) speaking here friday 25th march
http://archives2011.gcnlive.com/Archives2011/mar11/AlexJones/0325112.mp3
DR Busby states that the Japanese government has stated officialy that the continment vessell in reactor no 3 is breached cacked leaking .......
He also has stated that within the 30 mile region of the nuke plant the radation is 8 times higher than Chernobal. In the time of Chernobal the Russian evacuated that region within 3 days .
In japan millions still live and work therenearly two weeks later as there is nowhere to send these peoples now or even in the future
Also within 78 kilometers of the Nuke plants the radation levels are twice as high as Chernobal . Again In Japan the many Millions of Japanese have to stay there exposed to high levels of radation and soak it all up, where in Russia they would have been removed to safer regions.Thats because Russia has room to spare .Japans high human population densities mean as the cloud of radation approaches Tokoyo 35 million people in the city will as DR Busby says be exposed to high levels of radation

Now imagine the Nuke plant accident was in Ireland .Do you think the cute people in the Dail will tell you the truth or will they high tail it on thier government jets to safer climeates and Skpe call us back you on how safe it is to live beside the leaking nuke plants .

Its simple maths Physics
Put 600,000 spent fuel rods beside two nuclear power plants that have exploded publicly on TV and sent skywards a few thosand spent fuel rods and add in a spent fuel rod fire involving several thousand fuel rods and another Nuclear power station no 2 in trouble with no coolant and mix in scientists that want to reasssure you your safe because the governemnt doenst want to lose face and who you gonna belive the good fairy God mother will wave here majic wand and genie will be put back in its bottle

Sorry This ant Holly wood the good guy wont count to ten and come back to life .

Millions are probably gonna suffer from some sort of radation injury issues like thyrod cancers which is a very curable cancer but some will die even so
Thousands maybe millions will suffer from more extreme radation issue like radation sickness and cancers that come from radation exposures

People who will eat the nuclar effected fish from the north Pacific could also suffer from radation issues injuries and maybe even death so the problem has already spread far beyond the Japanese land region

People hundreds and even maybe thousands of miles away will suffer from radation fall out

Chernoabl they say has killed some 1,000,000 people all over north Europe where the fall out was including Ireland since it went bang a few decades ago .
Just because the death were spread out so you didnt see people drop dead in the streets in front of you doesnt mean they didnt die from Cherobal fall out events .
The Japanse Nuke event looks like it will easly match this figure 1.000.000 people dead and looks to be heading towards at least 5 million people all around the world where nuclear radation will fall ( mostly in Japan ) .

If things worsen with a even larger explosion or fire then it will be even worse and the damage could spread to even effect some hundred or thousand or even millions of Irish people living in Ireland depending the amount of fallout and the wind directions etc .
Even today in Ireland we can assume the fallout that Iceland got a few days ago has reached Ireland is falling now even though it very minute nobody can say fro certian a few people will die from injesting some extra nuclear stuff they didnt see falling from the sky

This is not a academic debate that doesnt have any chance to effect us

We all share the same planet even the nuclear experts who hope hoping on fast jets to safer climates will give them the edge while skpying back home all is well under the nuclear fall out zones

Knowlege can help you to prepare for any possibilty of any fall out and help in risk reduction solutions

No Knowlegee or false knowlege means you wont even know you should be preparing for something

S0 far my money is on the scientists who all predicted that nuclear power was not safe and never could be safe .
They prediced senarios very like this and were told they were nutters

Well the NASA space shuttle maths were two types.
One type said only one shuttle in ten thousnad would blow up.
Another group said one shuttle in 25 flights would blow up
When the 26th shuttle flight blew up it was revealed that NASA had supressed the evidence that the group of mathamatics that were correct to the dark basements of NASA where they could not be heard unrtil of course the 26th shuttle blew up .

Its the same for nuclear power the industry suppreses the real trruth about how unsfafe the nuclear industry really is and even now employ spin doctors to shout from the roof tops " see look how safe Nuclear power is non of the nuclear power statins contaiment vesseles have leaked (LIES) and the engineers have everything under control(LIES ) " etc

So its simple maths Phyfics chemistry facts can be distorted by the square of the monetry input that wants a different result to the experment and if nessary do what FOX NEWS does only show pitures of the Japanse Nuke plant from months ago when they were intact and not rubble like now

A not so well known fact is 35 years ago the main engineer for the American group for this type of BWR resigned because he said the design wasnt safe. Since then many more of these BWR plants have been built .

Failing that you can always buy worry beads in the local markets

Derry

derry

Professor_Fink wrote: »

It's fear-mongering nonsense. The situation in Fukushima is serious, but it's not the apocalypse.

If I lived in Oxford surronded by as many nuclear plants as you are on a small Island, I Probaly would have the same religious beliefs systems you have so I could sleep at night

Me I dont do fear monegering .I merley pass onto you the information that comes from places that have no finacial incentives to lie for or against nuclear power safety issues

They supply experts from the feild both for and against the subject of nuclear safety ever since the Japanese nuclear event has happened and long before this

So far some of the experts that stated that the Nuclear cores were cracked have been proved correct

So far the experts that have stated there isnt enough coolant and this would lead to explosion event and were proved correct when no 1 and no 3 hareactors had expolsions

So far the experts that have stated that the cores in one or more nuclear plant have gone into partial or total meltdown and have yet to be proved correct, but the fact that there is Ionized radation events taking place from reactor no 3 suggests they are on track to being proved correct

Now they predict (not me ) that there exists some sort of nuclear explosion risk from a melted down core

If you can supply real hard core evidence that no such risk exist as a chain reaction nuclear explosion event in a melted down nuclear power stations core ,that would be useful debating on the Phyics issues and maybe help the argument go away from the religios believe systems that seem to lurking out there .

Derry

Professor_Fink

derry wrote: »

If I lived in Oxford surronded by as many nuclear plants as you are on a small Island, I Probaly would have the same religious beliefs systems you have so I could sleep at night

I no longer live in Oxford, and I don't work for the nuclear industry (before you suggest I have some vested interest here). Stop trolling, it's extremely irritating. Whether you believe what you are saying or not, you are spreading a significant amount of misinformation.

Funny that you describe my level of concern about nuclear power as a religious belief system. My opinions are formed based on my understanding of physics, of which I have a fairly substantial experience, and on my understanding of how biological systems interact with radioactive material (which is certainly less than my understanding of physics, but I have at least taken the time to read up on this). In that respect it is somewhat like my views on religion, i.e. evidence based.

Professor_Fink

derry wrote: »

Now they predict (not me ) that there exists some sort of nuclear explosion risk from a melted down core

Uranium literally cannot explode unless it is sufficiently enriched, which the fuel rods won't be. The heating causes it to expand, which reduces the rate of reaction.

darjeeling

Some useful (i.e. not Alex Jones) sources of information on the developments at the Fukushima Daiichi plant:

• IAEA Fukushima updates
• Austrian Central Institute for Meteorology and Geodynamics - tracking & forecasting Fukushima-derived radionuclide dispersal based on CTBTO monitoring station data (English translations available at foot of each page).
• Nature's 'Great Beyond' blog - Latest update on Fukushima
  
• Physics forums thread - huge Fukushima thread with lots of speculation, but much of it informed; inevitably somewhat jumbled up.
• Tepco - site for press releases providing raw data discussed in the sites linked above.

Recent news is not encouraging, with increasing evidence of a breach in the reactor pressure vessel in the MOX-fuelled reactor no. 3, in addition to the previously suspected damage to the surrounding steel and concrete containment unit. The RPV breach is suggested as the likely cause of radiation in the water in the turbine room that contaminated three workers. If confirmed, it will make clean-up more difficult.

derry

Professor_Fink wrote: »

Uranium literally cannot explode unless it is sufficiently enriched, which the fuel rods won't be. The heating causes it to expand, which reduces the rate of reaction.

I shall work on the assumption the word apocalypse. was some sort of Fruedain slip of the toungue which spins off the religious debates

So back on track the Physics of the problem how could the not so enriched Uranuim and Plutonuim reach or not reach chain reaction temperatures or densities to trigger a run away chain reaction

Or alternitivly if the reactors got hot enough to create a China sysndrom and melt down to the water table some few hundred meters down .
It is reputed that if Chernabal had gone China sysndrom the molten mass meeting the water table could have created such a large exlosion pushing all the nuclear materal upwards that most of Europe would have become uninhabitable for thousands of years .

My understanding is these 40 year old Mark 1 type Reactors have the weakest containment vessels in the nuclear industry in terms of containing a nuclear melt down event

So The Rusian accident in 1957 where spent rods nuclear materails did some how come together get crital mass and a chain reaction and unintentionly exploded means for us, are there the same conditions that exist in Japan to re-create this type of event as some expert claim .Alternitivly is this unlikely because the fuel types or other factors wont allow that to happen ?

Much as I am not a great fan of the nuclear industry I remain unconvinced that this amount of nuclear reactors can have so much problems when you look at the the amounts of safety systems and back ups and other reduntcy measures .
So are we dealing with massive negligence or derliction of duty or some extrodinary something else .
Are we also later dealing with a saving the face exersize while Rome burns rather than really taking on the so called unexpected problems and allowing the problem to continue to drift into a even worse catostrophic result .

There are all sorts of things going on that smack of some sort of strange problems
There is the water pumps in reactor no two not working and having to be replaced .These types of pumps are the top notch in the world and very near unbreakable ??? In nuclear power plants often there is often back ups ???
There is the busness of having to bring in new power lines to replace the old power lines when often there is already a back up power line ready to use if the primary lines are not functioning.
We also got this funny buisnss of spraying sea water on top of the reactors when it is known that can cause sea water crusting and reduce water flow even further ??

I think we need to figure out what would other people in the trade given the same problem have done to resolve the same set of problems problem

From there using this form of measure or ruler it might open up the doors into what is really going on and where this type of Japanese problem solving is leading them into and worse maybe even effecting us


I am not an expert on the probabilty of four nuclear stations all having such massive problems at the same time but my instict say one maybe thats possible , two is stretching reason to breaking point, but four snuclear power station in trouble.....
Naw for me your not looking at a normal accident event . My Instict is there is something else going on that we are not being told and thats nots a religious opinion that just weighing up the mathamatical probabilties of ths unfolding story

Derry

derry

darjeeling wrote: »

Some useful (i.e. not Alex Jones) sources of information on the developments at the Fukushima Daiichi plant:

• IAEA Fukushima updates
  ....< snip >....
• Tepco - site for press releases providing raw data discussed in the sites linked above.

Recent news is not encouraging, with increasing evidence of a breach in the reactor pressure vessel in the MOX-fuelled reactor no. 3,
....< snip >....
. If confirmed, it will make clean-up more difficult.

Since the toubles in Japan started with the nuclear plants I would say I have followed most all those links and a few more to boot and Alex Jones

I found on average the experts that Alex Jones has chosen over this time period have been accurate in thier estimations of the problems and been way ahead of any other news source especially the castrated main stream media

When I find a link that more advanced in the analyisis of the real story than Alex Jones experts I will post those up

Derry

Erinfan

Seawater were used to cool down the reactors .In this process I assume that this water came into direct contact with nuclear rods .

My question is:why today scientist are amazed to discover that today March 26,2011 ;radioactivity in seawater tested about 1,250 times higher than normal ?

Even if the water is heated up and released in steam form it would still pose a threat to nature.

Thank you.

derry

http://www.infowars.com/fukushima-reactor-2-radiation-10-million-times-above-safe-level/

[qoute=infowars]
The Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) has reported that radiation level in the containment building of reactor number 2 at the stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant is an astounding 10 million times above normal.
[/quote]
Special EDIT 29/3/11
The Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) has revised the 10,000,000 levels to 100,000 times higher than normal background radiation. It seems 10,000,000 times is nutron star stuff would fry the planet .100,000 times will kill you in minutes . Not sure how they could make such a large error maybe the Japanese do a different mathematics than us when their under pressure .




I only had time on yesterday to finally listen to the three hour pod cast from info wars on Thursday show 24/3/11

Another expert on the nuclear power station subject Joel Skousen Authour of " Strategic Relocation - North American Guide to Safe Places." states that he is of the opinion that there no realistic risk of either reactor no 3 or the others entering into any type of chain reaction event explosion.
He explains that there isn't the required proximity density of materials to allow that to happen .
If true thats good news for the majority of the northern hemisphere as smaller explosions from Hydrogen gas will generally mean the regions around the power stations will get the most radiation fall out .However that still bad news for Japan
youtube video here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM9ABiFLAp0&feature=player_embedded

Also yellow rain has been seen to fall in Tokoyo .For some reason that I don't know when there is either pollen or radiation in the air you get yellow rain .Both in the Chernobyl nuke event and the Japan nuke event the governments claim that its a pollen rain event .That was later found to be a lie in the Chernobyl event the yellow rain was in fact the radioactive rain type . Looks like nothing new under the sun the Governments lie and lets kids go out to play in rain puddles filled with radioactive materials


However there does look to some risk of the some levels of increased radiation of some levels getting to the USA west coast .

http://www.infowars.com/weather-models-show-high-levels-of-radiation-entering-u-s-from-japan/

Derry

Podge_irl

Erinfan wrote: »

My question is:why today scientist are amazed to discover that today March 26,2011 ;radioactivity in seawater tested about 1,250 times higher than normal ?

Different seawater.

FISMA

Derry,
With all due respect, I think Professor Fink should move your particular "insights" to the conspiracy forum where they would be better received.

You appear to have: an apocalyptic, government lies, I will believe the bits and pieces that I choose, but you must accept as fact my un-cited statements, type of attitude.

So be, but not in the world of Physics.

Please allow me to play devil's advocate.

Question: What proof would you accept of us to demonstrate that the situation in Japan is currently nowhere near the order of magnitude described by yourself?

Simple? Fair?

derry

FISMA wrote:

Derry,
With all due respect, I think Professor Fink should move your particular "insights" to the conspiracy forum where they would be better received.

First thing s the Japanese Culture they claim its important is the saving face culture means no underling staff member will ever dare question a higher up even if he see that the policy of safety neglect will cause a accident. That is referred to as conspiracy of silence .
When the nuclear accident takes place then the conspiracy of cover up takes hold within the Japanese culture and the nuclear industry culture of covering things up worsens this conspiracy .
All this type of debate can be found in main stream media .

FISMA wrote:

You appear to have: an apocalyptic, government lies, I will believe the bits and pieces that I choose, but you must accept as fact my un-cited statements, type of attitude.

Four nuclear power plant in tatters with out of control written over most every recent media report suggests that the main stream media is maybe following my lead or maybe the non main stream media outlets I go to and I am following their lead has a track record to predict days in advance what the true story is most likely to be and they get it right more often than muzzled main stream media

FISMA wrote:

So be, but not in the world of Physics.

When they let the first nuclear bomb off in the New Mexico desert they hadn't a clue if that would ignite the worlds atmosphere and exterminate humanity but they still exploded the darn Bomb.
Thats been the nuclear industry logic ever since don't worry we are the experts that haven't a real clue what we do but we are the experts
Then after the war there was over 1000 atmospheric explosions to see what the Physical fall out effects would be

In my mind the world of Physics need more non Physics types in there to tell them they cant pretend to be sophisticated monkeys making even more and more dangerous weapons and then using them in mindless tests and remind them we all live on the same planet so the same radiation will fall on their egg heads

But worse if any non Physics types ever dares suggest that a nuclear plant could have a issue they get dropped on from a great height with a gaggle of Physics Professors telling them all is well and there is no chance that the Titanic will sink.
Doing large uranium Fission and fast breeder power plants has been predicted by non Physics types to be a very bad idea .They were not listened too. There is huge evidence that there is no level of extra radiation that can be called safe but the Nuclear industry will shout the argument down.
Excuse me but the last few days higher levels of radiation have fallen on my head in Ireland.The first time it was Chernobyl now it Japanese whats next something with a Sottish flavor all from nuke power station s that could never ever blow up
Well now it looks like Japan can become the experiment on how much extra nuclear radiation the people can live or not live with Thanks to something called the impossible event in Physics

FISMA wrote:

Please allow me to play devil's advocate.

There is no judge jury or penalties in this one that I can see
Too me its simply a learning process for all the speaking monkeys concerned Ooopss!! we all boobed nuclear plants do go AWOL and maybe we should forget the whole idea and switch them all off ASAP before we get more accidents .
Report now claim that many USA nuclear plants spent fuel rods are filled to four times the recommended capacity and are more disasters looking to happen

FISMA wrote:

Question: What proof would you accept of us to demonstrate that the situation in Japan is currently nowhere near the order of magnitude described by yourself?

I have never decided or not decided that the situation is good or bad in Japan .I merely passed on the opinions of some expert in the field who did not share the castrated main stream media cover up to say what the most likely story is . The other nuclear experts who don't share the Nuclear industries opinions are the people you got to prove it too not me I am merely the messenger the repeater interface of the info

However when its all over and the full damage is assessed there is going to be a lot of Professors of the nuclear industry dusting down the CV while they change to more fruitful industries like Nano engineering or similar up and coming well paid industries .
They wont wait to be involved in the fall out debate they will making even more deadly weapons like nano robots that exterminate speaking monkeys as thats where the mega money is weapons

FISMA wrote:

Simple? Fair?

There is nothing simple fair when soon Japanese babies will be born deformed for life. ,Japanese Mothers will abort and possibly become sterile never to have any more children and the fertility count of the Japanese population could drop to the point that they could all become extinct as a race .
No Nuclear radiation is simple and fair it doesn't discriminate and its simple it kills people of every age or ethnic or religious background

Ireland is only 70 miles from a potential nuclear accident in the UK similar to the Japanese nuclear accident and similar to Japan we Irish could also be made extinct

I think its time the Physics world entered into discussion and debate with the real world and peoples out there and face facts that most Physics formulas are skewed to suit the cash finance desires of lunatic projects financiers who finance projects like fission nuclear power which are under engineered to cut costs and nano teck robotic weapons that could escape the laboratories and go wild

And if like some nuclear experts say this MOX reactor no 3 goes bang then its looking seriously like its goodbye the to northern hemisphere as a place for speaking monkeys to live in.



So on the issue of professor Fink and back to Physics
Reactor no 3 is a MOX reactor which uses Plutonium Oxide fuels
Last I recall that means its similar to weapon enriched quality fuel which can go bang in the right circumstances .
It would be nice to know that the same effect that non enriched Uranium has to push the hot materials further apart would apply to this Plutonium fuel when it gets super heated


Derry

FISMA

derry wrote: »

I think its time the Physics world entered into discussion and debate with the real world and peoples out there and face facts that most Physics formulas are skewed to suit the cash finance desires of lunatic projects financiers who finance projects like fission nuclear power which are under engineered to cut costs and nano teck robotic weapons that could escape the laboratories and go wild

Wow, that was a real Academic Decathalon.

derry

Yep should have known when Physics. arguments cant work and it then calls apon devil advocate and other Religious Voo Doo there probably isn't going to be a Physics. debate in a Physics. forum

So keeping in the spirt of the neo religious theme that has broken out in the Godless Physics. world ,Well if the Japanese MOX reactor no 3 does go bang God help every-bodies soul

Derry

Professor_Fink

derry wrote: »

Well if the Japanese MOX reactor no 3 does go bang God help every-bodies soul

I don't understand what you thing will happen. Having more fuel doesn't translate into a bigger bang, even if it were possible for it to explode. All of the higher yield weapons are based on fusion not fission.

derry

Professor_Fink wrote: »

I don't understand what you thing will happen. Having more fuel doesn't translate into a bigger bang, even if it were possible for it to explode. All of the higher yield weapons are based on fusion not fission.

A nuclear bomb when it blows up creates a large bang but believe it or not not so much radiation fall out as that isn't the main purpose of the bang.

A power station even if it doesn't go bang can create much more nuclear fallout than many nuclear bombs will do

If a nuclear power plant has a melt down and fire and Hydrogen explosion fall out will travel many miles from the event and already radiation from Japan has nearly cirled the northern Hemisphere

If you have 600,000 spent fuel rods that get caught up in some sort of fire or explosion events the radiation would equal something like 5000 nuclear bomb detonations in terms of nuclear fall out
As it is we can estimate that several thousand nuclear spent fuel rods will risk to become involved in the melt downs of three nuclear power stations if the worst predictions from this Physics professor come true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBovPouOU8&feature=player_embedded


Derry

Professor_Fink

derry wrote: »

As it is we can estimate that several thousand nuclear spent fuel rods will risk to become involved in the melt downs of three nuclear power stations if the worst predictions from this Physics professor come true

I wouldn't rely to heavily on Michio Kaku. He's not the right kind of physicist (by which I mean this is not his area of expertise), and in my opinion he has a habit of massively over-sensationalising things.

Coles

Good site for information about what is happening at Fukushima. Very good technical information, and far more serious than we're being told by our media.

www.fairewinds.com

Watch the videos if you have any interest in what's actually happening.

derry

Coles wrote: »

Good site for information about what is happening at Fukushima. Very good technical information, and far more serious than we're being told by our media.

www.fairewinds.com

Watch the videos if you have any interest in what's actually happening.

Nice find .I just found that latest video searching other stuff and was gonna post it but you beat me too it.
Three reactors maybe as much as 70% melted down is off the charts stuff

Now we have the like of George Monbiot a waste of space type so called scientist advocating we should ignore the Japanese Nuclear accident as its not relevant to the nuclear industry

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-atomic-energy


Thats like saying because the model T ford crashed the new 1955 Buick is so safe it can never crash

Many Responsible Scientists that speak out and who know the dangerous reality of the Nuclear industry and how dangerous Plutonium fuels with a half life of 25000 years are to the continued survival of talking monkeys in the planet earth , are condemned to the less well funded and less fashionable ends of the scientific world..


The whores of the scientific world that promote this lie about CO2 will cook our goose and how safe nuclear power is even as three nuclear plants are in melt down get all the wads of cash thrown at them to say nuclear is so safe we should even make more Nuclear plants

Science in its entirety like poisios GM foods to Nuclear power is gonna have go on trial for selling out to the highest bidder and I was only taking orders or I needed the cash wont be a defense in the science Nuremberg trials

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/mar/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-atomic-energy


Derry