cost of building a suckler cow unit

irishh_bob

perhaps i could pick someones brains on a little idea i have , currently , i dont own any cattle in my own right ( brother got most of the farm and all of the dairy ) but have been working with my brother full time this past two years on his dairy farm and know enough about cows and cattle in general , i own land and am thinking of setting up an autumn calving suckler enterprise

i have a fair idea what it costs to build a dairy cow cubicle slatted shed in 2011 but have no idea what it would take to build a shed for suckler cows complete with creep area

would need to house 60 cows

design i had in mind was ( roughly ) thirty cubicle along each wall ( 3 ft 9 cubciles = 112 ft long ) and also a creep area behind each row of cubicles , i know thats a very long shed but it would avoid having more than two row of cubicles , slatted tanks would be 12 ft 6 wide and 8 ft deep with a central passage of around 17 ft wide , would also like to have a row of calving pens along one side of the shed and a chute along the other side or possible outside the shed itself

could such a project be done for a hundred grand ?

any ideas would be welcome

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

perhaps i could pick someones brains on a little idea i have , currently , i dont own any cattle in my own right ( brother got most of the farm and all of the dairy ) but have been working with my brother full time this past two years on his dairy farm and know enough about cows and cattle in general , i own land and am thinking of setting up an autumn calving suckler enterprise

i have a fair idea what it costs to build a dairy cow cubicle slatted shed in 2011 but have no idea what it would take to build a shed for suckler cows complete with creep area

would need to house 60 cows

design i had in mind was ( roughly ) thirty cubicle along each wall ( 3 ft 9 cubciles = 112 ft long ) and also a creep area behind each row of cubicles , i know thats a very long shed but it would avoid having more than two row of cubicles , slatted tanks would be 12 ft 6 wide and 8 ft deep with a central passage of around 17 ft wide , would also like to have a row of calving pens along one side of the shed and a chute along the other side or possible outside the shed itself

could such a project be done for a hundred grand ?

any ideas would be welcome

Bob,

I don't think 100k would do it. I don't have exact pricing on building as it was 2008 when I last built a shed. Prices did come down since then but the price of steel has risen sharply in the last 12 months.

You're talking about a tank that's 120ft long to allow for agitating outside at both ends. That's a 7 bay double shed. The slats alone would cost over 30k. The tank would cost at least 60k. Walls, gates, barriers, drinkers etc will cost another 20k - at least. The uprights, roof and side sheeting will cost at least 40k. Add in the digging out, yard concreteing etc and you'rer looking at 170k - minimum.

Now, bring on all the experts who will tell me that I'm completely over pricing it. :rolleyes: But you have to start somewhere.

Best thing to do is ring around and get a few prices. The steel erectors will be able to give you an approximate price over the phone. The tank pourers will have a price per meter and you'll get slat rices over the phone too!

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Bob,

I don't think 100k would do it. I don't have exact pricing on building as it was 2008 when I last built a shed. Prices did come down since then but the price of steel has risen sharply in the last 12 months.

You're talking about a tank that's 120ft long to allow for agitating outside at both ends. That's a 7 bay double shed. The slats alone would cost over 30k. The tank would cost at least 60k. Walls, gates, barriers, drinkers etc will cost another 20k - at least. The uprights, roof and side sheeting will cost at least 40k. Add in the digging out, yard concreteing etc and you'rer looking at 170k - minimum.

Now, bring on all the experts who will tell me that I'm completely over pricing it. :rolleyes: But you have to start somewhere.

Best thing to do is ring around and get a few prices. The steel erectors will be able to give you an approximate price over the phone. The tank pourers will have a price per meter and you'll get slat rices over the phone too!

steel is IMO still cheaper than it was towards the second half of 2008 when it was around 1200 euro per tonne , labour is a fraction of what it was back then , i could just go with a 75 ft wall with 20 cubciles along the back - slatted passage and then two rows of 20 cubicles back to back - followed by the slatted feed face and cows eating along the side rather than a central passage way , two 120 ft tanks would probabley be surplus to requirements for 60 cows anyhow

Dupont

a 3 bay double,all of it a tank and a silage pit the same size and road made trough field and big concrete yard all from start to finish about 120k+in good times

irishh_bob

Dupont wrote: »

a 3 bay double,all of it a tank and a silage pit the same size and road made trough field and big concrete yard all from start to finish about 120k+in good times

not looking to build a silage pit

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Bob,

I don't think 100k would do it. I don't have exact pricing on building as it was 2008 when I last built a shed. Prices did come down since then but the price of steel has risen sharply in the last 12 months.

You're talking about a tank that's 120ft long to allow for agitating outside at both ends. That's a 7 bay double shed. The slats alone would cost over 30k. The tank would cost at least 60k. Walls, gates, barriers, drinkers etc will cost another 20k - at least. The uprights, roof and side sheeting will cost at least 40k. Add in the digging out, yard concreteing etc and you'rer looking at 170k - minimum.

Now, bring on all the experts who will tell me that I'm completely over pricing it. :rolleyes: But you have to start somewhere.

Best thing to do is ring around and get a few prices. The steel erectors will be able to give you an approximate price over the phone. The tank pourers will have a price per meter and you'll get slat rices over the phone too!

btw, how much room do calves and cows need during feeding time, would have thought space is very important , normally you have around 10 - 12 ft at feed face in front of cubicles but with calves , would that be enough

caseman

irishh_bob wrote: »

perhaps i could pick someones brains on a little idea i have , currently , i dont own any cattle in my own right ( brother got most of the farm and all of the dairy ) but have been working with my brother full time this past two years on his dairy farm and know enough about cows and cattle in general , i own land and am thinking of setting up an autumn calving suckler enterprise

i have a fair idea what it costs to build a dairy cow cubicle slatted shed in 2011 but have no idea what it would take to build a shed for suckler cows complete with creep area

would need to house 60 cows

design i had in mind was ( roughly ) thirty cubicle along each wall ( 3 ft 9 cubciles = 112 ft long ) and also a creep area behind each row of cubicles , i know thats a very long shed but it would avoid having more than two row of cubicles , slatted tanks would be 12 ft 6 wide and 8 ft deep with a central passage of around 17 ft wide , would also like to have a row of calving pens along one side of the shed and a chute along the other side or possible outside the shed itself

could such a project be done for a hundred grand ?

any ideas would be welcome

could be done for 100k if your able to do alot of the work yourself whats your welding skills like if you went with spring calving herd you could get away withalot simpler housing

vanderbadger

dont forget those automatic scrapers arent cheap bob

irishh_bob

vanderbadger wrote: »

dont forget those automatic scrapers arent cheap bob

no scrapers for me , thanks

keep going

are you going spending 100+grand for 60 sucklers that generate at best 200eu a head a year. that means 1t will take you 8 years just to pay for the shed while you ll live on air.i know i missing something

irishh_bob

keep going wrote: »

are you going spending 100+grand for 60 sucklers that generate at best 200eu a head a year. that means 1t will take you 8 years just to pay for the shed while you ll live on air.i know i missing something

since when has suckling ever been a way of gettin rich , my attitude is this , you need to be breeding quality weanlings if your in suckling and going down the autumn calving route is the best means of achieving the top prices and also the best means of breeding from A. I which i believe is the only way to achieve top quality stock , i just cant see how suckler cows can be gotten in each day for A.I in a spring calving system , add to the fact that in an autumn system , cows calve outside and the calf has the healthiest possible start and its an obvious choice for me

back to the shed , instead of cubciles , if you were to simply place rubber mats on slats but install a creep area for the calves , would the cows udders end up to dirty for the calves to suck ? , this would greatly reduce the cost of a shed , or is it the case that autumn calving cows need a high level of comfort and require cubicles

leg wax

keep going wrote: »

are you going spending 100+grand for 60 sucklers that generate at best 200eu a head a year. that means 1t will take you 8 years just to pay for the shed while you ll live on air.i know i missing something

i was going to say the same but bit my lip,crazy and stupid but thats irish farmers for ya, a similar thread over on the english boards site where farmers are business men and the conclusion that i last saw a no go for the returns.but the irish farmer will put his single farm payment and any money he has in the bank in to concrete for no return and give his cows comfort , instead of putting oil in tank to heat his own house.irishh bob i am not saying that about you,but,since when is suckling about getting rich,100k in your pocket goes a long way towards it.

reilig

leg wax wrote: »

i was going to say the same but bit my lip,crazy and stupid but thats irish farmers for ya, a similar thread over on the english boards site where farmers are business men and the conclusion that i last saw a no go for the returns.but the irish farmer will put his single farm payment and any money he has in the bank in to concrete for no return and give his cows comfort , instead of putting oil in tank to heat his own house.irishh bob i am not saying that about you,but,since when is suckling about getting rich,100k in your pocket goes a long way towards it.

I have to agree with you. €100K was allright to spend when you knew that you were going to get €60k of it back in a grant.

blue5000

I know a few ppl that spent >100k on sheds for su cows in the good times, are they sick now or what?

Do it as cheap as you possibly can, Slats yes, no cubicles, Spring calving, get as much grass into the cow as you can. Those fancy weanling prices could go at the stroke of a pen in Brussels.

I admit I bit the bullet and put in a slatted tank (no roof yet) alongside old cubicle shed for 60 cows, put off spending 25k as long as I could.

Buy a decent bull, ai might work for some ppl but I haven't got time to watch cows 3 times a day. With ai you're going to need a bull to mop up anyway.

In UK suckler farmers are looking at ways of out-wintering cows and using their buildings for finishing cattle, makes a lot more sense to me. Suckler cows ain't pets....
Rant over

pakalasa

blue5000 wrote: »

.... Those fancy weanling prices could go at the stroke of a pen in Brussels.....

Or an outbreak of disease.

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

I have to agree with you. €100K was allright to spend when you knew that you were going to get €60k of it back in a grant.

that grant scheme was the worst thing that happened to farmers in a long time , drove the price of labour and materials through the roof , six mths after the scheme closed , sheds were being built cheaper without any grant , if a grant scheme was introduced in the morning , i still wouldnt touch it

keep the goverment out of you way

irishh_bob

blue5000 wrote: »

I know a few ppl that spent >100k on sheds for su cows in the good times, are they sick now or what?

Do it as cheap as you possibly can, Slats yes, no cubicles, Spring calving, get as much grass into the cow as you can. Those fancy weanling prices could go at the stroke of a pen in Brussels.

I admit I bit the bullet and put in a slatted tank (no roof yet) alongside old cubicle shed for 60 cows, put off spending 25k as long as I could.

Buy a decent bull, ai might work for some ppl but I haven't got time to watch cows 3 times a day. With ai you're going to need a bull to mop up anyway.

In UK suckler farmers are looking at ways of out-wintering cows and using their buildings for finishing cattle, makes a lot more sense to me. Suckler cows ain't pets....
Rant over

if a stock bull is good enough , he will be in an A.I station , A.I all the way for me , besides , i see no difficulty in using A.I when your breeding season is november , december and january

pakalasa

How about this for an idea. It's something I was thinking of myself.
First of all cows dont need a roof over their head. Stand-off pads, outwintering in kale etc proove this.
If you have an existing yard, which I have. Why not put slats over the yard, say 3ft up. Put a sump at one point to collect the slurry and pump it then to either an over head tank or slurry lagoon. The slurry would be watery enough to flow freely.
You could put rubber on the slats. Cows would have more than enough comfort.

You'd need extra storage to cover for rain but not anywhere near as much as a stand-off pad. You'd save on excavation and the cost of a shed.
Just an idea!!

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

if a stock bull is good enough , he will be in an A.I station , A.I all the way for me , besides , i see no difficulty in using A.I when your breeding season is november , december and january

Its exceptionally difficult to pick out cows in heat while they are indoors - that's why a lot of people with autumn calvers will use a bull. Heat detection is much easier when the cows are on grass.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

that grant scheme was the worst thing that happened to farmers in a long time , drove the price of labour and materials through the roof , six mths after the scheme closed , sheds were being built cheaper without any grant , if a grant scheme was introduced in the morning , i still wouldnt touch it

keep the goverment out of you way

I think you took that up slightly wrong bob. It is true that Since the grants closed, people have been building sheds cheaper than with the grant.

For Example:
A 3 bay double slatted shed could be built for €80k during grant times or €60k over the last 2 years. But you could get 60% of a grant and get the vat back on the shed built to grant spec leaving the cost out of your pocket to be around €20k. On the shed not built in the grant era you could only get the VAT back on it which would bring the total cost down to 50K.

Now if you had a choice, would you choose a shed built to department spec for €20k or a shed where all possible corners were cut to save money for circa €50k??????

F.D

reilig wrote: »

I think you took that up slightly wrong bob. It is true that Since the grants closed, people have been building sheds cheaper than with the grant.

For Example:
A 3 bay double slatted shed could be built for €80k during grant times or €60k over the last 2 years. But you could get 60% of a grant and get the vat back on the shed built to grant spec leaving the cost out of your pocket to be around €20k. On the shed not built in the grant era you could only get the VAT back on it which would bring the total cost down to 50K.

Now if you had a choice, would you choose a shed built to department spec for €20k or a shed where all possible corners were cut to save money for circa €50k??????

The other side of the coin is it paid inefficient farmers to put up a shed that the would have no chance of affording in the real world or a business that would have no hope of paying it back!

irishh_bob

pakalasa wrote: »

How about this for an idea. It's something I was thinking of myself.
First of all cows dont need a roof over their head. Stand-off pads, outwintering in kale etc proove this.
If you have an existing yard, which I have. Why not put slats over the yard, say 3ft up. Put a sump at one point to collect the slurry and pump it then to either an over head tank or slurry lagoon. The slurry would be watery enough to flow freely.
You could put rubber on the slats. Cows would have more than enough comfort.

You'd need extra storage to cover for rain but not anywhere near as much as a stand-off pad. You'd save on excavation and the cost of a shed.
Just an idea!!

wouldnt touch a wintering pad with a barge pole , pure hardship and not nearly as cost effective as we were ( once ) led to believe , even jack kennedy is having second thoughts which says something

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

I think you took that up slightly wrong bob. It is true that Since the grants closed, people have been building sheds cheaper than with the grant.

For Example:
A 3 bay double slatted shed could be built for €80k during grant times or €60k over the last 2 years. But you could get 60% of a grant and get the vat back on the shed built to grant spec leaving the cost out of your pocket to be around €20k. On the shed not built in the grant era you could only get the VAT back on it which would bring the total cost down to 50K.

Now if you had a choice, would you choose a shed built to department spec for €20k or a shed where all possible corners were cut to save money for circa €50k??????

dept spec was in many ways , completley unesscesery , you can still do a god job without going to those extremes

dont know about suckler units but i know of dairy cow sheds which were built for a grand per cow in the past 18 mths

reilig

F.D wrote: »

The other side of the coin is it paid inefficient farmers to put up a shed that the would have no chance of affording in the real world or a business that would have no hope of paying it back!

I agree. But wasn't it better for them to avail of the grant for it than to build it out of their own pockets and have space for future expansion. The average out of pocket that most of these "inefficient farmers" were was €15 to €20k.

Bob is proposing to spend €100k out of his own pocket on housng for sucklers with no grant at a time when 60% of suckler farmers in the country are either breaking even or making a loss and relying on the SFP for their income - In 2014, it will be gone and who knows what will replace it, if anything.

Either Bob knows something about Suckler farming that the rest of us don't know or he is willing to take a significant gamble on an industry that doesn't yet have a clear or determined future.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

dept spec was in many ways , completley unesscesery , you can still do a god job without going to those extremes

dont know about suckler units but i know of dairy cow sheds which were built for a grand per cow in the past 18 mths

I agree totally about the dep spec being extreme and unnecessary. However, even if you do make cuts, you won't make a 60% saving equal to the grant aid - you'll be lucky to make a 30% saving.


There was an article in the Farmers journal a couple of weeks back about slatted units for finishing cattle and they were looking at a new build. It would have a similar spec to your proposed shed except it would have no cubicles and no calving/creep pens and would be more densely stocked than a suckler unit. It was a unit to hold 450 animals and his costs came in at over €1000 per animal. He had much greater economies of scale than you. It was in teh Feb 11th or Feb 18th edition. Might be worth a look.

F.D

dont know about suckler units but i know of dairy cow sheds which were built for a grand per cow in the past 18 mths[/QUOTE]

The Difference is the Dairy cow will leave a lot more cash towards paying for the 1000 euro spent on her than the suckler,could /would you go down the dairy road? or go into a partnership with you brother and use what land you have to expand?

irishh_bob

F.D wrote: »

dont know about suckler units but i know of dairy cow sheds which were built for a grand per cow in the past 18 mths

The Difference is the Dairy cow will leave a lot more cash towards paying for the 1000 euro spent on her than the suckler,could /would you go down the dairy road? or go into a partnership with you brother and use what land you have to expand?[/QUOTE]

thats an answer to a question i never asked

blue5000

irishh bob did you win the lotto?
Or did you retire from politics recently?

BeeDI

blue5000 wrote: »

irishh bob did you win the lotto?
Or did you retire from politics recently?

It's not just a simple financial equation, when you think about investing on a farm.
If you are a farmer at heart, and not some other professional or passive investor in another off farm business, it makes sense to invest on farm, where you totally understand the business, and have a high level of control.
I avoided investing in sheds for the grants, because at the time my mindset was, farming financial returns dont justify all this investment.

I turned around last year, and did a fine shed at fairly handy money. If I got out the calculator, I could say it was a crazy decision from financial return point of view.

However, I feel more secure about having a €35k shed on my farm than having it in the Irish banks:cool: At least I know when I look out my window in the morning, it will still be there.

My working conditions have improved out of measure. I can hold more stock, and manage them easily. When I retire from the day job, I will have a reasonable enterprise, to supplement my pension.

There's an awful lot of farmers, who took expert advice and invested heavily in investments outside of their area of expertise, a few years back.
Most of them today, are wondering why they didn't keep investing in their own business, where they know what's going on.

I'd say Bob, if you feel you can make it work for you, go for it. At least you will still have it in X years time. It will still help you make a few bob, and you can pass it on.
Won't make you rich, but won't you have a few nice blues in it, to keep you smoking your pipe in contentment;)

My few pennies worth in any case!

irishh_bob

blue5000 wrote: »

irishh bob did you win the lotto?
Or did you retire from politics recently?

its amazing how rich you stay when you stay single

lets just say i recently came into some money , i dont see too many good investments right now and in terms of setting up a business , farming is what i know best

thier are other options ( cheaper options ) to constructing a state of the art cubcile cow house with creep , i could just allow the cows to lie on rubber matted slats and put in the creep behind for the calves but would the cows not be then too dirty for the calves to suckle them ?

a further option would be to put in a straw bedded shed and no slats , thier are straw choppers nowadays which make efficent use of bedding , i realise straw can be expensive but truth be told , if it wasnt any more expensive than a cubicle house ( even after twenty years ) , i would not be against the idea in principal , that said , i dont know of any suckler men who continously use bedded sheds for herds of sucklers cows

i hope to do it in some shape or form so no good in trying to persuase me not to

caseman

irishh_bob wrote: »

its amazing how rich you stay when you stay single

lets just say i recently came into some money , i dont see too many good investments right now and in terms of setting up a business , farming is what i know best

thier are other options ( cheaper options ) to constructing a state of the art cubcile cow house with creep , i could just allow the cows to lie on rubber matted slats and put in the creep behind for the calves but would the cows not be then too dirty for the calves to suckle them ?

a further option would be to put in a straw bedded shed and no slats , thier are straw choppers nowadays which make efficent use of bedding , i realise straw can be expensive but truth be told , if it wasnt any more expensive than a cubicle house ( even after twenty years ) , i would not be against the idea in principal , that said , i dont know of any suckler men who continously use bedded sheds for herds of sucklers cows

i hope to do it in some shape or form so no good in trying to persuase me not to

slats with mats seem to hold the dirt and leave cows wiyh dirty udders also their is different width in the gap in slats it makes a big difference in how clean the slat stay the widder the gap the better
and to ai suckler cows alot harder than dairy need to be checking 5 times a day if part time not easy also i think you should consider spring calving you said better prices for early calves but a meal bill to match