Road tax scenario question

mondeo

I bought a 01' 318i coupe there recently, have it only 8 or so days. I actually bought it for my gf. Did not get tax on it yet as awaiting new log book. The garage I picked it up from have it over the weekend to do some warranty work which should have been done prior to sale but it wasn't :mad:.

My question is if they park her car at the side of the road with no tax disk and a warden see's this who is the one that gets done for it? I am just concerned because I don't feel too comfy about her car been in the hands of these lads. Have a feeling they are going to be knocking about in it while their doing the required work. There is a grace period of 30 days for taxing a new car right? The car is insured with disk in the window but nothing stopping these lads parking on st stephens green to get a curry and landing her a fine in the post for no tax.

Should I get written confirmation from these guys of the dates in which they had the car, times etc?

Thanks.

slimjimmc

If the mechanic is caught driving it it's his problem.
If the car is unattended then the registered owner i.e. the person who's name is on the VLC will get all fines issued. If the fine is issued before the change of ownership is processed by the office in Shannon it will go to the previous owner who is the registered owner on file at that time. You can be damned sure he'll be fairly prompt at letting them know that ownership has changed and the fine will be re-issued to you.

You don't need to wait for the registration/licensing certificate before you can pay Motor Tax. So long as you have details of the car you can tax it in the Motor Tax office.

There is no grace period for taxing any car. If your tax is out even by a single day you can be fined. You do have until the end of the month to pay tax without incurring arrears but you must not drive or park the car in a public place at any time until you have the tax paid and displayed. It does not permit you use the car for 30 days.

Dates & times from the garage won't save you.

mickdw

If they are that type of garage, I would get them to sign for dates when it was in there control.

There's a lot of ifs and buts though isn't there....

slimjimmc

RoverJames wrote: »

There's a lot of ifs and buts though isn't there....

Only 2...
If you are driving when caught you get fined.
If the car is unattended the registered owner gets fined.

Simple really.

mondeo

slimjimmc wrote: »

If the mechanic is caught driving it it's his problem.
If the car is unattended then the registered owner i.e. the person who's name is on the VLC will get all fines issued. If the fine is issued before the change of ownership is processed by the office in Shannon it will go to the previous owner who is the registered owner on file at that time. You can be damned sure he'll be fairly prompt at letting them know that ownership has changed and the fine will be re-issued to you.

You don't need to wait for the registration/licensing certificate before you can pay Motor Tax. So long as you have details of the car you can tax it in the Motor Tax office.

There is no grace period for taxing any car. If your tax is out even by a single day you can be fined. You do have until the end of the month to pay tax without incurring arrears but you must not drive or park the car in a public place at any time until you have the tax paid and displayed. It does not permit you use the car for 30 days.

Dates & times from the garage won't save you.

I was always lead to believe there was a grace period for the first taxation of a new vehicle. Is there a form for taxing the car without the VLC? I always just waited for the VLC to come in but I better tax it Monday morning so:p

Anyways it's be annoying me since I left the car in with them on Friday morning. They seem a bit too fly and careless in there. Have a nasty feeling I'm gonna find a ding or a scrape on the car when I pick it back up on Monday morning or somthing else.

faw1tytowers

mondeo wrote: »

I was always lead to believe there was a grace period for the first taxation of a new vehicle. Is there a form for taxing the car without the VLC? I always just waited for the VLC to come in but I better tax it Monday morning so:p

Anyways it's be annoying me since I left the car in with them on Friday morning. They seem a bit too fly and careless in there. Have a nasty feeling I'm gonna find a ding or a scrape on the car when I pick it back up on Monday morning or somthing else.

I wouldnt of paid until the repairs were done.

mondeo

faw1tytowers wrote: »

I wouldnt of paid until the repairs were done.

Unfortunately it was afterwards that i noticed some deliberately well concealed dodgy repair on the car which I grilled the dealer over. Honestly don't know if it were themselves or the previous owner that did it.
3 month warranty with it so what can you do other then leave it back into them? They agreed to sort it out.

faw1tytowers

mondeo wrote: »

Unfortunately it was afterwards that i noticed some deliberately well concealed dodgy repair on the car which I grilled the dealer over. Honestly don't know if it were themselves or the previous owner that did it.
3 month warranty with it so what can you do other then leave it back into them? They agreed to sort it out.

Thats good. I had an issue similiar when I asked my boyfriend to pick up a car I had bought, they were to have done some repairs, when the car arrived it was not repaired. It took 2 30 mile trips to finally get it sorted, me finally having to go myself almost ready to give birth at hte time and I sat in the garage until they finsihed it! 4 hours :S Mainly paint work and minor repairs. No problems with it since thank god! I would say if anything needed doing they did it lol.

mondeo

faw1tytowers wrote: »

Thats good. I had an issue similiar when I asked my boyfriend to pick up a car I had bought, they were to have done some repairs, when the car arrived it was not repaired. It took 2 30 mile trips to finally get it sorted, me finally having to go myself almost ready to give birth at hte time and I sat in the garage until they finsihed it! 4 hours :S Mainly paint work and minor repairs. No problems with it since thank god! I would say if anything needed doing they did it lol.

Ye you have to be direct with these people. Its not amusing when you find yourself bringing your car back a week after you bought it because they tried to pull the wool over your eyes. I have better things to be doing like.

Bruthal

slimjimmc wrote: »

you must not drive or park the car in a public place at any time until you have the tax paid and displayed.

Tax can be paid online, but no disk received for a couple of days. They have your money, so you should be able to drive before the disk arrives with no problem.

faw1tytowers

robbie7730 wrote: »

Tax can be paid online, but no disk received for a couple of days. They have your money, so you should be able to drive before the disk arrives with no problem.

When you have bought a new car, I dont believe it can be paid first time on line. Nor can you get it taxed in the office with out logbook. They will however stamp that you came to pay and so you can back date you pay... or jsut get a new form later..

-Chris-

While the car is in their control, they should be liable for all fines relating to it.

If they're stupid enough to drive around without trade plates in an untaxed car, they deserve every fine they get.

Bruthal

faw1tytowers wrote: »

When you have bought a new car, I dont believe it can be paid first time on line. Nor can you get it taxed in the office with out logbook. They will however stamp that you came to pay and so you can back date you pay... or jsut get a new form later..

No your right about the online part with newly bought car, i was just talking about in reference to the post saying we have no grace period during the month the tax is out when it is already your car, and must have tax paid and displayed at all times. I often leave it a week or so into the month its due. Never seen a garda yet that did not use common sense in that scenario. I would not park out on a public road though if its not paid.

I believe you can tax it though without the changeover being complete. But not if it was out for a time previous to you getting the car, only if it was due in the month you aquired it. Dont want to be paying for time before you had it.

slimjimmc

slimjimmc wrote: »

Only 2...
If you are driving when caught you get fined.
If the car is unattended the registered owner gets fined.

Simple really.

.. what about if the garage actually take the car out at all?

Fishtits

Lots of if,buts and arseways here.

Law says you must display a tax disc. Real simple.

If you are the registered owner of the vehicle.

If said vehicle is in a public place sans tax disc. You get fined.

-Chris-

Fishtits wrote: »

Lots of if,buts and arseways here.

Law says you must display a tax disc. Real simple.

If you are the registered owner of the vehicle.

If said vehicle is in a public place sans tax disc. You get fined.

If you hand vehicle over to someone else, and they use the vehicle on the road and get fined, then it's reasonable to assume they'll pay the fine, no?

Bruthal

Fishtits wrote: »

Law says you must display a tax disc. Real simple.

Is it that simple? I know its change of ownership the thread is about. But in general as owner of a car i dont think a law says you have to pay the motor tax before the current disk expires. So if you pay online on the first of the month, or on any day after previous expiry, are you now breaking the law by driving while waiting for your disk in the post? Unless the tax office comes up with a way of instantly producing the tax disk for a car owner when they pay online, then it seems its not that simple.

Our man in Havana

Solution: pay before the old disc expires.

Bruthal

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Solution: pay before the old disc expires.

If you have the car parked in driveway and dont drive it for the first week of a month it expired, then pay online, and drive while awaiting the disc, what law have you broken? They have your money, and proof you payed it. Its the tax office which now is responsible for delivering your receipt of payment(disk).

Would you now not drive the car until the disk arrives? Or pay before it expires every time as the perfect solution.

Seth Brundle

robbie7730 wrote: »

If you have the car parked in driveway and dont drive it for the first week of a month it expired, then pay online, and drive while awaiting the disc, what law have you broken? They have your money, and proof you payed it. Its the tax office which now is responsible for delivering your receipt of payment(disk).

Its against the law AFAIK to use a car in a public place without displaying a valid tax disc.

slimjimmc

RoverJames wrote: »

.. what about if the garage actually take the car out at all?

What about it? There's no special dispensation for a car being in public when undergoing repairs/maintenance.

[edit] Unless Trade Plates are displayed [/edit]


Like I said before whoever is sitting in the driver's seat at the time will be prosecuted for using it in a public place, be that the car owner or garage staff.
If the car is parked up somewhere then the registered owner gets it, if the owner want's the garage to pay the fine on their behalf than that's a personal matter between them.

robbie7730 wrote: »

If you have the car parked in driveway and dont drive it for the first week of a month it expired, then pay online, and drive while awaiting the disc, what law have you broken? They have your money, and proof you payed it. Its the tax office which now is responsible for delivering your receipt of payment(disk).

Would you now not drive the car until the disk arrives? Or pay before it expires every time as the perfect solution.

Basically the law you have broken is the one that say's you must display a current tax disc while using a vehicle in a public road/place (can't remember which).

The tax office may be responsible for issuing the tax disc but only after you take the necessary steps to purchase it. If you leave it too late that's your own lookout, can't deflect responsibility onto anyone else (not saying you want to, btw).

As you say, if you want to drive then paying (and make sure you have the new disc ready to pop into the holder) before it expires is the only legal way. Everything else could potentially get you a fine.

Bruthal

kbannon wrote: »

Its against the law AFAIK to use a car in a public place without displaying a valid tax disc.

It likely is if its taken to the letter of the law, but my point is, if you do tax the car online, they have your money, should you not now be entitled to drive immediately. Before online payments, you could do it by post, and still can, you still had to wait for the disk. So even if send it by post before the current one expires,there is no guarantee the disk would arrive on time. The same with online payments.

So if we were to follow the letter of the law, you would have to wait until the disk arrives? It would be a bit silly to be fined for this.

Bruthal

slimjimmc wrote: »

The tax office may be responsible for issuing the tax disc but only after you take the necessary steps to purchase it. If you leave it too late that's your own lookout, can't deflect responsibility onto anyone else (not saying you want to, btw).

But my paying online is the necessary steps to purchase it. I can pay online a week before expiry of previous one, but that does not absolutely guarantee i will have it in time. A bit of common sense is needed, and when it comes to the gardai in them situations, its used in fairness. But im just saying if the tax office wants people to use the online system, there should be a definite way to show the fact its taxed pending the tax disc received. The online receipt can be printed, but i dount that will do for parking wardens.

Yawns

It comes down to the letter of law or spirit of the law.

Letter of the law would see you fined for not displaying a valid disc. Also if your disc gets lost in post, you have to pay for a replacement so apparently it's not up to them to ensure delivery. Letter of law would be the driver's responsability to ensure car is displaying valid tax, insurance and nct disc etc.

Spirit of law would be you show your printed reciept and the guard waves you on. Which in fairness they do most of the time without even asking for proof if it's within 10 days or so. There's people takign the piss tho with tax out for 40 days etc tho.

slimjimmc

robbie7730 wrote: »

But my paying online is the necessary steps to purchase it. I can pay online a week before expiry of previous one, but that does not absolutely guarantee i will have it in time. A bit of common sense is needed, and when it comes to the gardai in them situations, its used in fairness. But im just saying if the tax office wants people to use the online system, there should be a definite way to show the fact its taxed pending the tax disc received. The online receipt can be printed, but i dount that will do for parking wardens.

In your previous example you mentioned paying on-line 1 week after expiry.
Of course there's no guarantee you'll receive the disc on time even if you paid a whole week before, why not pay 2 or 3 weeks in advance (most notices come out 1 month before). There's never any guarantee, too many variables one being An Post, but in practice discs are usually received within 3 working days.

The law is clear, no leeway, so there is always the potential for a fine for non-display. If you've proof of payment then you can't be convicted for non payment of tax (Non payment and non-display are separate offences).

However, Gardaí do have discretion in many matters including this one and I'd say you'd have to seriously pi55 him off before he'd do you for being a week or two out of date. I'm not sure if Traffic Wardens have the same flexibility.

My tax disc expired end of Feb, must do the online thing this week or next. Anyway, was at a checkpoint on Friday night, discs checked and the Garda made no comment regarding the tax, he did breathalyse me though, random thing no doubt. Also waved through a checkpoint on Tuesday morning at the slip road onto the South Link from Caseys Cross

I have yet to encounter a Garda with an issue with a disc within one month of it's expiry, I wouldn't drive around with one outside of that though.

mondeo

My gf's 318 as per my original post had it's tax expire in december 2010'. Although she Wont be responsible for arrears obviously as car was bought 9 days ago. If I don't wait for the Vlc will the tax office try charge me for January & February if I go up Monday morning to tax it? I have to wait until the Vlc comes through for proof at tax office of recent ownership so I can tax the car from this point right?

-Chris-

They'll go by the date of change of ownership. If she bought it in March, then she'll be liable for March onwards.

You won't be asked for Jan & Feb.

slimjimmc

mondeo wrote: »

My gf's 318 as per my original post had it's tax expire in december 2010'. Although she Wont be responsible for arrears obviously as car was bought 9 days ago. If I don't wait for the Vlc will the tax office try charge me for January & February if I go up Monday morning to tax it? I have to wait until the Vlc comes through for proof at tax office of recent ownership so I can tax the car from this point right?

No, you can tax it straight away in your local Motor Tax office if you want. All you need is form RF100A and the money.
http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/Renewal/

Renewing motor tax where there is:
a change in ownership, following completion/dispatch of the relevant change in ownership form, viz. RF200 (pre 1993 vehicles), vehicle licensing certificate (post 1993 vehicles) or vehicle registration certificate (post May 2004 vehicles)
The following are required to renew motor tax in these circumstances:

• Tax renewal Form RF100A available from Motor Tax Offices, Public Libraries and Garda Stations.
• Appropriate fee
• A certificate of roadworthiness /pass statement issued by an authorised tester for all goods vehicles/buses/coaches/ambulances one year old or over. Goods trailers having a design gross vehicle weight exceeding 3,500 kgs, one year old or over.
• A weight docket from an authorised weightbridge (only applies to a new owner of a goods vehicle)
• A goods declaration Form RF111a, available from Motor Tax Office (only applies to a light goods vehicle whose unladen weight does not exceed 1524 kg )
• PSV licence (only applies to small andlarge public service vehicles)
• Article 60 licence (only applies to school buses)
• A certificate of approval from the Revenue Commissioners for a disabled driver/passenger (only applies to an exempt vehicle)

slavetothegrind

it is as simple as non display is illegal.

i just got fined 90 euro in naas last friday where i parked outside fbd to get my printed insurance policy/disc having got cover over the phone to drive there before heading over to tax it. nct'd that morning disc displayed.

sure i was pissed off but it was my fault:(

guards are usually ok about it if it is a clear change of ownership a few days ago but traffic wardens don't engage owners, just print fines.

Seth Brundle

robbie7730 wrote: »

It likely is if its taken to the letter of the law, but my point is, if you do tax the car online, they have your money, should you not now be entitled to drive immediately. Before online payments, you could do it by post, and still can, you still had to wait for the disk. So even if send it by post before the current one expires,there is no guarantee the disk would arrive on time. The same with online payments.

So if we were to follow the letter of the law, you would have to wait until the disk arrives? It would be a bit silly to be fined for this.

Then law is quite clear about it. However, gardai usually use some common sense when applying it.
However, you as the driver are responsible to ensure that it is properly taxed (and insured, NCTed, etc.) before you use it in a public place - not the gardai, the motor tax office, etc.
If you don't have a valid tax disc then to be completely road legal, you don't drive until the disc arrives!

Bruthal

kbannon wrote: »

Then law is quite clear about it. However, gardai usually use some common sense when applying it.
However, you as the driver are responsible to ensure that it is properly taxed (and insured, NCTed, etc.) before you use it in a public place - not the gardai, the motor tax office, etc.
If you don't have a valid tax disc then to be completely road legal, you don't drive until the disc arrives!

I`m not sure its quite as clear as that. You as the driver may be responsible to have the car properly taxed, but it is properly taxed when you pay online, and you have carried out your part, there is no requirement stating it must be paid prior to expiry. Thats why i mentioned it being up to the tax office to send you the disk. If they offer an online service, the motor tax dept would have to expect people to be waiting on disks. A garda can if needed, find out quick enough if a car is taxed or not without looking at the disk.

There are any number of reasons why it may not be taxed for a week or 2 into the due month. A person could be away, or in hospital, my tax is up end of march for example, and the renewal form is not here. So if i went off for a couple of weeks tommorrow, then arrive back mid april, go online, and pay the money, the car is taxed from that moment i would of thought, not when the disk arrives. What if the disk is lost in the post? How much more responsible would i have to be?

To tell someone they now can not drive it until the disk arrives would be ridiculous. If the law backs that up then some solution of common sense is needed.

In reality i dont think anyone will have a problem when they are driving the car awaiting a disk. Parking is another matter though.

Bruthal

kbannon wrote: »

Its against the law AFAIK to use a car in a public place without displaying a valid tax disc.

That is a law alright. I was just getting at the fact we can pay instantly online. Seems a bit silly we can then be fined for not having a disk immediately. The law was around before the instant online payment method. I never seen a garda yet that did not operate with common sense in that regard though.

-Chris-

You get your tax renewal reminder several weeks before your disk is due to expire. There's plenty of time to pay for a new disk.

The only people with an "excuse" to not have a valid disk are people who have just bought a new (to them) car.

Fortunately the Gardai do show discretion. AFAIK it's far more strict in the UK.

slimjimmc

You can call into the Motor Tax office and pay in person and get the disc in your hand straight away, or have someone do it for you, or you can send it in by post. Handy if if you're away or in hospital. Obviously if there are extenuating circumstances e.g. emergency/going into a coma which prevent you renewing then the Courts will take that into consideration. You don't need to wait for the renewal notice, the month of expiry is printed in big letters on your disc so you should know well in advance.

People have been using those methods long before on-line renewal, and plenty of people still do. Until those payment methods are not longer made available and on-line becomes the sole facility there's sweet f.a. chance of them changing the system.

Bruthal

slimjimmc wrote: »

You can call into the Motor Tax office and pay in person and get the disc in your hand straight away, or have someone do it for you, or you can send it in by post. Handy if if you're away or in hospital. Obviously if there are extenuating circumstances e.g. emergency/going into a coma which prevent you renewing then the Courts will take that into consideration. The month of expiry is printed in big letters on your disc so you should know well in advance.

People have been using those methods long before on-line renewal, and plenty of people still do. Until those payment methods are not longer made available and on-line becomes the sole facility there's sweet f.a. chance of them changing the system.

Its like your saying its wrong to do it after the old one expires. If thats the case, then why do they accept online payments after the old disk expires? They assume we will leave the car parked in the garden until the disk arrives is it? Even though the car is now taxed back to the start of the month, and it could be the first time its going to be driven after expiry is after the online payment, for whatever reason.

Luckily our gardai have the common sense that others dont seem to.

Yawns

Yes but robbie the thing about it is your car is taxed from the moment you pay. That is correct 100%. Where you're breaking the law is with driving on public roads with displaying valid disc.

The guards do use common sense so it's not a big deal unless you are driving with a disc that expired about 30 days ago. The wardens on the other hand can and do just issue a fine. You cannot refute this fine because even tho your car is taxed, it's not displaying it whilst parked in a public place.

And again, if your disc gets lost in the post, you have to pay for a replacement, not the tax office.

slimjimmc

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its like your saying its wrong to do it after the old one expires. If thats the case, then why do they accept online payments after the old disk expires? They assume we will leave the car parked in the garden until the disk arrives is it? Even though the car is now taxed back to the start of the month, and it could be the first time its going to be driven after expiry is after the online payment, for whatever reason.

Luckily our gardai have the common sense that others dont seem to.

I've no idea how on earth do you come to the conclusion "Its like your saying its wrong to do it after the old one expires", it is not and I never even suggested it was. There's nothing wrong with paying Motor Tax after expiry so long as you don't drive or park the car in a public place. You don't even have to tax a car at all if you keep it off-road.

If you want to comply with the law your choices are:

Pay the Motor Tax by whatever method that results in you receiving your Motor Tax disc before expiry of the old one. Display it and you can continue to drive legally.

Pay for Motor Tax beforehand and if you have not received the new disc before the old one expires, park your car off road and wait until you do receive and display it.

If the tax has already expired, park the car off road until such time as you have paid and displayed the new tax disc.

It's really that simple.


Is suspect the reason the on-line payment allows you pay for Motor tax during the month following expiry is because it is only designed for simple tax renewals where no arrears are involved. You should not assume that it permits you drive in the meantime, because that's not true.

It would be great if it allowed you to pay arrears too but it doesn't.
Another thing it can't do is allow you declare the car off-road for any past period because that's something which must be witnessed by a Garda.

And yes, legally you're meant to keep the car off-road until you display the tax disc. And, as you say, the vast majority of Gardaí apply common sense (I suspect more than a few of them are late with their own discs too )

Bruthal

slimjimmc wrote: »

Is suspect the reason the on-line payment allows you pay for Motor tax during the month following expiry is because it is only designed for simple tax renewals where no arrears are involved. You should not assume that it permits you drive in the meantime, because that's not true.

You can pay arrears online alright no problem. You couldnt when the online service first came out, but you can for the last couple of years now. As soon as you put in the PIN on the renewal form it tells you how much is owed.

It would be great if it allowed you to pay arrears too but it doesn't.
Another thing it can't do is allow you declare the car off-road for any past period because that's something which must be witnessed by a Garda.

As said above, it does allow arrears payment.

And yes, legally you're meant to keep the car off-road until you display the tax disc. And, as you say, the vast majority of Gardaí apply common sense (I suspect more than a few of them are late with their own discs too )

Yes one thing with the gardai, they do display common sense in this regard.