Insulation Grant Scam??

Lemlin

A friend reckons her mother is getting an insulation grant of 2k and spending this on her house to dryline certain areas. I tried explaining that this couldn't be as you pay the amount in full first for the works and then the grant is reinbursed to you. Also, her mother says she is only spending the 2k and does not have to pay any money herself.

Anyway, after a bit of an argument, she rang her mother who said she is getting certain walls drylined and the cost is 2k which will be fully covered. She said it is under the insulation grant and not a grant because she is a pensioner or anything else.

The only thing I can think of is - is this a dodgy contractor who is saying he is drylining all the house to the SEAI, putting in a bill for say 6k or 7k to the SEAI and then only doing 2k worth of works? I was thinking then he'd also need someone dodgy to give a BER cert.
Has anyone heard of anything like this before?

Smcgie

What's happening here is that the contractor is financing the works and is getting paid on receipt of grant, maybe even the assessor. Its not uncommon for contractors to do this buy now pay later approach.

Its not a scam but it wouldn't go down will with SEAI as they homeowner has declared that they have 'Paid' the contractor assessor etc

Lemlin

Smcgie wrote: »

What's happening here is that the contractor is financing the works and is getting paid on receipt of grant, maybe even the assessor. Its not uncommon for contractors to do this buy now pay later approach.

Its not a scam but it wouldn't go down will with SEAI as they homeowner has declared that they have 'Paid' the contractor assessor etc

Yes but should the home owner be getting a full grant of 2k?

I thought the grant was subject to the works you were getting done. For example, I am having cavity wall insulation and attic insulation that will cost 1750. I am getting a grant of 650 but I am not getting my full cost covered.

This homeowner is getting the 2k works done and nothing more. Is the builder lieing telling the SEAI he is doing 6k worth of works for them to get the full 2k?

muffler

The grant is a fixed amount and is not conditional on any amount paid to the contractor. The minimum grant drawdown has to be €500 but the Sei dont care if you spend 10 thousand or a hundred euro doing the work.

In simple terms the grant is not a percentage of the money spent but a fixed amount with no minimum spend by the applicant.

No6

Why do you assume the BER assessor will have to be dodgey too!! The assessor only assesses what is there and what the contractor says they have done, it is not up to the assessor to check the builders figures and if they are correct or not, SEAI have their own auditors for the builders as well as seperate ones for the assessors. The assessors have no role whatsoever in the quality or lack of of the work.

mickdw

No6 wrote: »

Why do you assume the BER assessor will have to be dodgey too!! The assessor only assesses what is there and what the contractor says they have done, it is not up to the assessor to check the builders figures and if they are correct or not, SEAI have their own auditors for the builders as well as seperate ones for the assessors. The assessors have no role whatsoever in the quality or lack of of the work.

I know nothing about these grants but I would have thought that the OP was making alot of sense.
Surely the amount of grant aid depends on work being done?
If not, how does the scheme work?

Example. Say we have a 1980s house with no cavity insulation and 100% quilt in attic. What would be the situation re grants? What checks are carried out to ensure the money is being spent on the house and not the contractor saying he has done x.y.z?

muffler

mickdw wrote: »

Example. Say we have a 1980s house with no cavity insulation and 100% quilt in attic. What would be the situation re grants? What checks are carried out to ensure the money is being spent on the house and not the contractor saying he has done x.y.z?

Both the grant recipient and the contractor have to sign declarations that the works have been carried out. On top of that the BER certs will lend more credence to this.

Im not sure of the exact figures - perhaps someone else will confirm, but I think that possibly up to 50% of all works are inspected after by an SEI appointed inspector

byhookorbycrook

1,500 hundred is what we paid to have the attic and walls done. We got €750 back, fixed amount afaik.

sydthebeat

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

1,500 hundred is what we paid to have the attic and walls done. We got €750 back, fixed amount afaik.

that 750 is:

400 walls pumped
250 attic
100 BER after



these are not dependent on the size of dwelling, so in some cases it may be as much as 100% of the contract....... in other cases it may be as little as 20%

muffler

I paid €900 for mine (walls & attic) and got €650 back. That was about 18 - 20 months ago and a BER wasn't required then.

So as sydthebeat pointed out above and I indicated earlier the amounts of grants are fixed regardless of what the person spends.

mickdw

I believe though that you must do the whole dwelling(or at least the areas that are lacking so as to have the whole dwelling up to a standard. Is that correct?

My parents for example have a spread out older house. These grants are practically useless for them.

muffler

mickdw wrote: »

I believe though that you must do the whole dwelling(or at least the areas that are lacking so as to have the whole dwelling up to a standard. Is that correct?

My parents for example have a spread out older house. These grants are practically useless for them.

All walls and all roof spaces must be insulated.

In relation to the type of house it may well cost a hundred or two more to insulate the walls but any grant is better than no grant and also think about the saving on the fuel bills and also the comfort they will enjoy by insulating.

mickdw

muffler wrote: »

All walls and all roof spaces must be insulated.

In relation to the type of house it may well cost a hundred or two more to insulate the walls but any grant is better than no grant and also think about the saving on the fuel bills and also the comfort they will enjoy by insulating.

The house would be have 7, 8 or maybe 10 times the external walls of a typical semi. It makes much more sense to just have the work done independant of this scheme by a contractor who really needs the work which may infact work out cheaper than grant aided work.

Smcgie

The grant for dry lining is 2500 so how is it so hard to understand that a contractor can dry-line a house for a cost of 2000 and the homeowner get 100%

You say you know nothing about these grants but then you follow up by saying it makes more scene not to get the grant (possibly 100%) And to hire joe soap to do it.

I think you should lay down that spade

No6

mickdw wrote: »

I know nothing about these grants but I would have thought that the OP was making alot of sense.
Surely the amount of grant aid depends on work being done?
If not, how does the scheme work?

Example. Say we have a 1980s house with no cavity insulation and 100% quilt in attic. What would be the situation re grants? What checks are carried out to ensure the money is being spent on the house and not the contractor saying he has done x.y.z?

Wel if you dont mind Mick i will clariy as I am an Assessor, we have no responsibility under the grant scheme for the quality of work and if there is 100% coverage or not. That is solely the remit of the contractor who gets audited on a number of jobs and I am sure when the find he's filling out the claim form incorrectly they audit more frequently. In relation to the householder if they get say a 2500 grant for drylining and spend 2501 on it then they get the full grant, provided they have drylined 100% of the house if they have only done 50% then the grant will most likely be halfed but this depends on the contractor saying they have only done 50% (which they generally dont as far as i can see.) If I were the BER assessor on that job I would notify the client that the works havnt been carried out in accordance with the requirements of the scheme and if they are aufdited may have to refund SEAI so or all of the grant money, it would the be up to the client to notify SEAI or sort it out with the builder, SEAI deemed in there wisdom to give assessors no role in the quality control of the system and as we get paid so little anyways all we can do is tell the householder if we see a problem.

In relation to your 1980's house you could get the walls pumped 400 grant, get the another layer of insulation in the attic 250 grant and a BER grant of 100, 750 total. If you don't look for over 500 in grants you will not get the 100 BER grant. I would also look at a new condensing boiler and heating control on a house that age.

I hope that helps

mickdw

Smcgie wrote: »

The grant for dry lining is 2500 so how is it so hard to understand that a contractor can dry-line a house for a cost of 2000 and the homeowner get 100%

You say you know nothing about these grants but then you follow up by saying it makes more scene not to get the grant (possibly 100%) And to hire joe soap to do it.

I think you should lay down that spade

I was talking about the particular case of the house I mentioned where the external wall area was many multiples of the typical semi (which the grant figures appear to be designed around). I am a Civil Engineer with much experience in construction. I was referring to the grants for wall pumping and attic insulation which I believe comes to 650 plus BER cost. My point was that this figure would not even touch the sides and that there is a definite case for pricing the job independant of the grant to see what figures come up. I dont believe in cowboys and I never mentioned cowboys.
My knowledge of these grants is totally based on this thread tbh but I learn fast and while Im stunned to find that the grant amounts to 100% in some cases, I feel that there are alot of cases (based on explaination below by No6) where COWBOYS are hitting on homeowners promising full grant aid and then doing very little work for the money.
Oh and by the way, I dont use a spade too often.

No6 wrote: »

Wel if you dont mind Mick i will clariy as I am an Assessor, we have no responsibility under the grant scheme for the quality of work and if there is 100% coverage or not. That is solely the remit of the contractor who gets audited on a number of jobs and I am sure when the find he's filling out the claim form incorrectly they audit more frequently. In relation to the householder if they get say a 2500 grant for drylining and spend 2501 on it then they get the full grant, provided they have drylined 100% of the house if they have only done 50% then the grant will most likely be halfed but this depends on the contractor saying they have only done 50% (which they generally dont as far as i can see.) If I were the BER assessor on that job I would notify the client that the works havnt been carried out in accordance with the requirements of the scheme and if they are aufdited may have to refund SEAI so or all of the grant money, it would the be up to the client to notify SEAI or sort it out with the builder, SEAI deemed in there wisdom to give assessors no role in the quality control of the system and as we get paid so little anyways all we can do is tell the householder if we see a problem.

In relation to your 1980's house you could get the walls pumped 400 grant, get the another layer of insulation in the attic 250 grant and a BER grant of 100, 750 total. If you don't look for over 500 in grants you will not get the 100 BER grant. I would also look at a new condensing boiler and heating control on a house that age.

I hope that helps

Yes explains the ends and outs pretty well and it does show that it is very open to abuse. How many dodgy builders are going around making a killing in this. I mean based on those rules, again Im only learning from this thread but it appears that if a quarter of the attic only needed doing, that full attic grant could be drawndown or is there anything to stop the installer pumping one elevation for example and then drawing down complete grant (apart from advice from the assessor). Seems like a dream setup for gangster builders as most people will happily take even a partial job if they are getting it for nothing.

No6

They are definately audited mick, I have done a number of BERs under the HES scheme and have been told later by the homeowner that they were visited, the will not do every house but the will do a good few so its not in the builders interest to be dodgey about it but as you know there will always be a few. To my mind SEAI should have made the before and after BER mandatory as that way an assessor gets there first and can reccomend what needs to be done rather than having contractors telling them what they can and can't do but they missed that boat too!!!

mickdw

No6 wrote: »

They are definately audited mick, I have done a number of BERs under the HES scheme and have been told later by the homeowner that they were visited, the will not do every house but the will do a good few so its not in the builders interest to be dodgey about it but as you know there will always be a few. To my mind SEAI should have made the before and after BER mandatory as that way an assessor gets there first and can reccomend what needs to be done rather than having contractors telling them what they can and can't do but they missed that boat too!!!

Fair enough, Im sure the auditing keeps most builders in check but a scheme such as this with government funding should be pretty bulletproof IMO. As you say, before and after BER would be a big help but thats not being done.

Macspower

I suppose the real question here is if the job can be done for 2500? Never mind the grant. As stated previously the grant is a fixed ammount not dependent on the ammount spent.

If the job can be done correctly for 2500 and the contracter is SEI registered then it's a win win situation

just do it

Lemlin wrote: »

A friend reckons her mother is getting an insulation grant of 2k and spending this on her house to dryline certain areas. I tried explaining that this couldn't be as you pay the amount in full first for the works and then the grant is reinbursed to you. Also, her mother says she is only spending the 2k and does not have to pay any money herself.



Anyway, after a bit of an argument, she rang her mother who said she is getting certain walls drylined and the cost is 2k which will be fully covered. She said it is under the insulation grant and not a grant because she is a pensioner or anything else.



The only thing I can think of is - is this a dodgy contractor who is saying he is drylining all the house to the SEAI, putting in a bill for say 6k or 7k to the SEAI and then only doing 2k worth of works? I was thinking then he'd also need someone dodgy to give a BER cert.

Has anyone heard of anything like this before?

"I declare that I am the owner of this dwelling and that the works detailed overleaf have been completed to my satisfaction. I confirm that I have paid the contractor in full or entered an agreed payment schedule contract for the works described. I understand that where my total expenditure is less than the fixed grant amount then the lower amount will be the grant payment.

I understand that all works may be inspected by SEAI or its agents. I undertake to facilitate any reasonable request to conduct the inspection/ audit process."

This is the homeowner delaration on the SEAI form to be signed by the homeowner. I believe it answers alot queries raised in this thread. Somone else on here has stated the grant for dryling is €2,500. As the builder can do it for €2,000, the grant payment will only be €2,000.