Transgender and the census

deirdre_dub

I presume I'm allowed to put down "Deirdre" and "Gender: F" on the census?

(I have my deed poll done, and I have a passport with "Gender: F" on it).

AndrewJD

I can't find anything concrete for you, but for the purposes of a census you would normally choose the option that you think identifies you the best, so in your case F. This is certainly the case in the UK. Some countries have introduced specific categories to deal with the confusion around this.

Azure_sky

Good question, I don't know I'm afraid. Personally I intend to put down Jedi as my religion.:pac:

hare05

Use the force, Deirdre. And come to the dark side, we have cookies!

Meesared

Azure_sky wrote: »

Good question, I don't know I'm afraid. Personally I intend to put down Jedi as my religion.

I love the fact thats such a widely selected answer in the census lol

Eebs

I put down M in the last census and I don't think I was even on T. They're hardly going to come to your house and check.

Eebs

Also I'm pressuming Deirdre is your legal name so it's actually illegal for you NOT to put that down.

wonderfulname

That's who you are why the hell wouldn't you?

L.Jenkins

You're Deirdre and a Female, why should it reflect anything else? Put it down on paper, I'm sure they won't argue with you

deirdre_dub

Eebs - good point re my legal name. Yes I'm legally Deirdre.

As for female - yup, if they come and check, I guess can always flash some boob at them! :eek:

Eebs

Thought this may interest you Deirdre_dub.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/03/be-statistic.html#disqus_thread

wonderfulname

So I've just been delivered my census. I had a brief flick through it and came across the following:

How many children have you given birth to?
This question is for women only.
Write in number of children born alive: _ _

In light of this thread I found myself wondering what do you do if you are a trans man with children? I suppose its just badly worded really, I won't even get into the insensitivity of the "born alive" bit, but if you were in this situation would you have to tick female and say you had kids (or likewise tick male and pretend you didn't)? If you put down the correct scenario would it be assumed you filled in the form incorrectly?

Lorrrrraine

wonderfulname wrote: »

So I've just been delivered my census. I had a brief flick through it and came across the following:



In light of this thread I found myself wondering what do you do if you are a trans man with children? I suppose its just badly worded really, I won't even get into the insensitivity of the "born alive" bit, but if you were in this situation would you have to tick female and say you had kids (or likewise tick male and pretend you didn't)? If you put down the correct scenario would it be assumed you filled in the form incorrectly?

Jesus, that section really needs re-wording. I'm sure there's another bit for adopted children but it seems odd to make a distinction between the two

deirdre_dub

I've had a conversation with a friend-of-a-friend who works in the CSO.

Yes, you can answer the gender question according to your gender identity - you can even tick both boxes!

As for the question about live births - a trans man may answer that question. My friend-of-a-friend acknowledged that the question is badly worded.

deirdre_dub

I've had a conversation with TENI about this. They essentially back up what my friend-of-a-friend said, though they go slightly further. Apparently, it is even OK to write "transgender", "gender queer", or whatever gender identity you identify with, on the census form. And, it is also apparently OK to tick neither box.

wonderfulname

I'm sure it is perfectly fine to, but will we see statistics for it?

Azure_sky

If enough people put transgender/transsexual as an answer then perhaps, in time, it will become an option to tick from the outset.

Louisevb

I'd advise putting transgender across both boxes, to reinforce to the CSO that they should be getting some more defined status boxes allowing those who are transgender to be catered for.

hare05

Or just write N/A. See what they make of it xD

Endymion

Louisevb wrote: »

I'd advise putting transgender across both boxes, to reinforce to the CSO that they should be getting some more defined status boxes allowing those who are transgender to be catered for.

I really don't understand this attitude. Deirdre is a woman, so why does there need to be a transgender box? Some people maybe more comfortable with such a box, but I think far more would be put out by the idea they can't or shouldn't fill in male/female. You're meant to tick the boxes that best fit.

wonderfulname wrote: »

In light of this thread I found myself wondering what do you do if you are a trans man with children? I suppose its just badly worded really, I won't even get into the insensitivity of the "born alive" bit, but if you were in this situation would you have to tick female and say you had kids (or likewise tick male and pretend you didn't)? If you put down the correct scenario would it be assumed you filled in the form incorrectly?

Well the census is about gathering clear information, not about being sensitive. For some people salary is a sensitive topic, or disability. The question is insensitive, but it's clear that still born babies don't count. Something that will be upsetting regardless of the wording.

The question isn't badly phrased since it asks how many children have you given birth to. A female to male transsexual would have to fill out the question if he'd given birth to a child prior to transitioning. A little bit of cop on how to be applied to filling out the census and what they are looking for.

wonderfulname

Endymion wrote: »

. A little bit of cop on how to be applied to filling out the census and what they are looking for.

What they are looking for is not men who have given birth.

In all fairness its a valid question to ask, I would assume that in that instance the CSO would assume it to be a mistake, that the person had misread the question and put down that they had fathered X children, and so the information would be ignored. Am I wrong to make such an assumption? I would not be surprised if some men did make this mistake, there's always at the very least one. which option are the CSO to assume is correct?

I still argue its badly worded. And quite unnecessary, what child in Ireland is not registered at birth, surely this information can be gotten elsewhere? They do not ask it in the uk, and in all fairness, what purpose does it serve?

Endymion

wonderfulname wrote: »

What they are looking for is not men who have given birth.

What appears in italics is a guide, not the question. You answer the question.

wonderfulname wrote: »

In all fairness its a valid question to ask, I would assume that in that instance the CSO would assume it to be a mistake, that the person had misread the question and put down that they had fathered X children, and so the information would be ignored. Am I wrong to make such an assumption? I would not be surprised if some men did make this mistake, there's always at the very least one. which option are the CSO to assume is correct?

Big assumption.

wonderfulname wrote: »

I still argue its badly worded. And quite unnecessary, what child in Ireland is not registered at birth, surely this information can be gotten elsewhere? They do not ask it in the uk, and in all fairness, what purpose does it serve?

Really? We have a different census to the one in the UK, infact this census is very different to the previous census. What happens in the UK should have little bearing on why or how we conduct a census. We're different countries.

You've condemned the question without obviously taking the time to research why it's being asked.

www.census.ie wrote:

The answers to question 13 allow an assessment to be made of the factors impacting the fertility rate of women in Ireland, i.e. the extent to which fertility will vary with educational attainment, labour market status etc.

You don't seem to understand that there's no other way for the CSO to get this information, there's no centralised database keeping track of how many children X person has. Very little is recorded about the mother on the birth certificate beyond the basics. Many many birth certs aren't even computerised.

Lets have a little faith the the CSO aren't complete morons.

wonderfulname

Endymion wrote: »

Big assumption.

Big assumption otherwise, it was merely a question, and one which nobody has answered as of yet.

Louisevb

The reason I said write transgender across it was both to reinforce the fact that there is no trans box, but also to remind the CSO that the more people who put it down as that then they may consider changing it next time and also may consider it a way for determining how many people consider themselves as trans men or woman for furthering treatment purposes

Endymion

Surely then the correct course is to have a question specifically on gender identity? A trans woman, is a woman.

wonderfulname

I would have thought the same Endymion, they are trans and a woman not trans or, a question on identity full stop where you tick as many boxes as you see fit would yield some pretty interesting results, handy ones too, although I don't know how accurate they'd be...