Can you help me with the names in this picture

JR79

Hi all,

Attached is a photo of an original rent book, my first question is the forth name down is mich (Michael) & ______ Rush. What I would like to know what you think that name is, I know what I think it is but I dont want to influence your answer.

My second question is the first 2 names John Green & James Lamb have some sort of strange symbol beside them do you know what this is?

Thanks

copacetic

Juno? although other u is a lot clearer.

cucbuc

Mo?? Or something starting with M... The first letter looks very like the M in Mc Dermot underneath it, anyway, I think.

kilsmum

Is it Mrs?

hblock21

Michael & Michael Junior & Rush

Father and son

JR79

Thanks for the comments guys.
I think it is short for a longer name as mich is short for Michael

P. Breathnach

I agree with kilsmum: Mich : & Mrs : Rush

It could be "Mick", but we have no sample of how the scribe writes the letter "k".

pinkypinky

Actually, JNO is an abbreviation of Jonathan usually.

Not sure about the symbol: it could be a junior but it doesn't look like other Js in that handwriting.

JR79

Again thanks for the comments.
I think the name is "frs" short for Francis, i think the f is a lower case one as used at the time (1850s)

P. Breathnach

JR79 wrote: »

Again thanks for the comments.
I think the name is "frs" short for Francis, i think the f is a lower case one as used at the time (1850s)

I think you are mistaken. The lower loop is the wrong direction for "f", and the writer uses upper case for the initial letters of all other names.

There are three unarguable instances of a capital "M" in the document, and the mystery word seems to start with something fairly similar. [I also think that we can discount "J" by comparing with other words in the document.]

Have you reason outside the document to believe that there was a Francis to be found?

On further consideration, I am less sure about "Mrs". It might be "Mo", which was sometimes used as an abbreviation for Maurice.

On the symbol: could it be "& Co" with superscript "o"?

JR79

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think you are mistaken. The lower loop is the wrong direction for "f", and the writer uses upper case for the initial letters of all other names.

There are three unarguable instances of a capital "M" in the document, and the mystery word seems to start with something fairly similar. [I also think that we can discount "J" by comparing with other words in the document.]

Have you reason outside the document to believe that there was a Francis to be found?

On further consideration, I am less sure about "Mrs". It might be "Mo", which was sometimes used as an abbreviation for Maurice.

On the symbol: could it be "& Co" with superscript "o"?

I do have a reason for the name Francis he was in this townland in the 1830's, the attached photo is from a rent book dated 1858. I am probably just seeing what i want to see!

shanew

John Green
James Lamb
John McDermott
Mich. & Jno. Rush
John McDermott
Pat Rush


Shane

davidjcie

Hi I think its Jno. The following is copied from another website

Abbreviated names can be confusing so I have tried to incorporate many ofthem into my website. I haven't included all, e.g. Pat'k or Mich'l as they
are obvious [I hope]. One of the oddest is Jno for John or Jonathan. I
think the "o" is a scribe's indication that this is an abbreviation - akin
to the "z" on the end of viz - but I haven't been able to validate this.


Could the 'o' apply to that after the name ? It could be Esq'o' to signify Esquire?

JR79

David/Shane

Ye may be right about the word being Jno.
There was a John Rush in this townland at the time.

spurious

Jno. is an abbreviation for John or Jonathan.

CalmDown...

Could it be "Mo"? If you look at the "M" in the Mc in the name above it it looks very similar to the first letter

CalmDown...

cucbuc wrote: »

Mo?? Or something starting with M... The first letter looks very like the M in Mc Dermot underneath it, anyway, I think.

Sorry didn't see this comment before i posted :rolleyes:

Funny we said almost exactly the same thing though!

Dun

Definitely "Jno" which is usually John. It matches the John Rush in the primary valuation:
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=doNameSearch&familyname=&firstname=&offset=20&countyname=&parishname=&parishname&unionname=&baronyname=&totalrows=34&PlaceID=1126436&wildcard=

Can't quite make the "symbol". Thought it might be "& Co." but the ampersand further down the page doesn't look like the symbol in question.

lorsric

Hey
The cicular symbol beside the top 2 names is from what I can gather only part of the symbol - 4th - ie. it is possible this is the room or the floor they lived on - see French 4-ieme (I can remember seeing this years back)

Also, the name - while I can see people assume it is Mich - I have a feeling it could begin with an f - see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive

Fr CH : Flo ?

While it seems also that the name Rush is a name - perhaps it is the place?

Curious to know what you find out.

JR79

lorsric wrote: »

Hey
The cicular symbol beside the top 2 names is from what I can gather only part of the symbol - 4th - ie. it is possible this is the room or the floor they lived on - see French 4-ieme (I can remember seeing this years back)

Also, the name - while I can see people assume it is Mich - I have a feeling it could begin with an f - see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive

Fr CH : Flo ?

While it seems also that the name Rush is a name - perhaps it is the place?

Curious to know what you find out.

Thanks Lorsric,

Iam sure the first name is Michael but what would you think the second name is. Most people think its jno for John. I have a feeling its frs & I think the link you sent might back me up on this hunch?

lorsric

Hey
No problem, have an interest in genealogy, so enjoy the puzzles it throws up.

I think you are the right track with fr - have you contacted the National Archives? http://www.nationalarchives.ie/ Also, check out - http://www.dublinheritage.ie/ - Perhaps give them a call, and ask if anyone would look at it for you.

Do let us all know what you find, best of luck with it,

mari2222

I think the funny symbol at the end of names is Esq.

I think the name fourth down is (michael and ) James Rush

Dun

JR79 wrote: »

Thanks Lorsric,

Iam sure the first name is Michael but what would you think the second name is. Most people think its jno for John. I have a feeling its frs & I think the link you sent might back me up on this hunch?

Have a look at the way the writer wrote his r in the middle of words - they are very defined, not like the second letter in the abbreviation. Also, the first letter, if it were an F would be lower case. Finally the s in James and Rush never goes as far back as the third letter. Given that, and the fact that there's a John Rush in the Valuation too, I still think it looks like Jno. for John.

Wyldwood

I also think it's "& Co", if you zoom in you can see the loop at the bottom of the "&" and the "C" is very similar to the C in Cloonelt.
Also Jno was widely used in church records for John and this priest seems to use a colon : after abbreviations, so Mich: & Jno: Rush

Larkenn

Having looked at this a number of times I'm not convinced the first letter is either an 'm' or 'j'. If you look at all the Ms and Js, you will see that no part of the letter goes below the line of the sentence. All are equal to the rest of the word.

On the mystery word the loop on the first letter swoops down below the word. It looks very much like an 'f' to me. The second letter looks like an ‘r’.

I’ve done a little digging in the 1901 Census and have found the families Rushe, Green and McDermott all still living in Cloonelt in Roscommon. Theres a Frank aka Francis in one of the houses. This probably isn’t your Francis but a relative, maybe son or grandson.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Cloonfower/Cloonelt/

JR79

Larkenn wrote: »

Having looked at this a number of times I'm not convinced the first letter is either an 'm' or 'j'. If you look at all the Ms and Js, you will see that no part of the letter goes below the line of the sentence. All are equal to the rest of the word.

On the mystery word the loop on the first letter swoops down below the word. It looks very much like an 'f' to me. The second letter looks like an ‘r’.

I’ve done a little digging in the 1901 Census and have found the families Rushe, Green and McDermott all still living in Cloonelt in Roscommon. Theres a Frank aka Francis in one of the houses. This probably isn’t your Francis but a relative, maybe son or grandson.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Cloonfower/Cloonelt/

Thanks everyone for the replys
Larkeen the Frank in the Census is Michaels son Francis.

KathleenMcCabe

all the other "J"s look different. Could this be Fra, short for francis as Mich is used as an abbreviation for Michael?

JR79

Thanks Kathleen.
I think it says frs Short for Francis.

KathleenMcCabe

welcome

best of luck with your research

Rubecula

It doesn't look like the 'J' as used in other names. It does resemble the 'M' though. I thought the name looked like Mu or Mo (could be short for Muriel)

If it is not an 'M' the other possibility that crossed my mind is it could be an 'F'.

Fra? Could it be short for father? Or possibly Frances?

srmf5

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread but I was wondering what other information is on the rent book. My 3x great grandfather was the John Greene in the picture. If the symbol is &co, then that would imply that they're sharing the land? In the 1857 Griffith's Valuation John wasn't recorded as sharing land with Lambe but with six others named Peter Greene, Dominick & Patrick Dunlevy, Patrick Lowry, Charles Dare & Patrick Murphy. That was only one year before the rent book but I suppose things could have changed within the year. Also can you get access to rent books in the National Library or where did you get it?

pinkypinky

Mod note: normally, we don't resurrect threads but there is a clear link between this new poster and the op. The OP has not been active on boards for some time but s/he may see it so we'll leave it open for now.

There is no consistency with where you might find a rent book. Some in the NLI, the NAI, county libraries, Trinity, private collections. Most of them will have an online searchable catalogue though, so you can at least check if they have estate records for a particular area before going in.

tabbey

srmf5 wrote: »

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread but I was wondering what other information is on the rent book. My 3x great grandfather was the John Greene in the picture. If the symbol is &co, then that would imply that they're sharing the land? In the 1857 Griffith's Valuation John wasn't recorded as sharing land with Lambe but with six others named Peter Greene, Dominick & Patrick Dunlevy, Patrick Lowry, Charles Dare & Patrick Murphy. That was only one year before the rent book but I suppose things could have changed within the year. Also can you get access to rent books in the National Library or where did you get it?

The majority of estates do not have surviving rent books, or where they survive could be in a variety of repositories,try NLI first, then NAI.
However your best bet is to look at the revision books at the Valuation Office, Irish Life Centre, Lower Abbey Street.

srmf5

Thanks for the suggestions. More than likely the OP won't be seeing this but thanks for giving them the opportunity to do so. The OP probably didn't have much more information on John Greene but was rather only asking out of curiosity. I'll have to see where I can get these rent books for other ancestors as well since it may solve some mysteries. Thanks for guiding me in the right direction.

JR79

srmf5 wrote: »

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread but I was wondering what other information is on the rent book. My 3x great grandfather was the John Greene in the picture. If the symbol is &co, then that would imply that they're sharing the land? In the 1857 Griffith's Valuation John wasn't recorded as sharing land with Lambe but with six others named Peter Greene, Dominick & Patrick Dunlevy, Patrick Lowry, Charles Dare & Patrick Murphy. That was only one year before the rent book but I suppose things could have changed within the year. Also can you get access to rent books in the National Library or where did you get it?

Hi
I found this old rent book in the
Royal Irish Academy. The book also shows amounts of land beside each of the names. I'd be happy to send on photos to you, i took loads. Pm me your email. I'm a little tied up at the minute but i'll send on as soon as i can