A Republican (Shockhorror) endorses McCarthyesque witch hunts of American Muslims

Denerick

First we had all of that crap over an attempt to build a mosque near ground zero in New York, which resulted in a predictable outbreak of good old fashioned American bigotry. Then we had a load of ballot initiatives in Muslim infested states like Oklahoma (Muslim population of around 7 people) banning 'sharia law'...

Now the wave of bigotry is getting serious:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/07/islam-terror-hearings-mccarthy-witchhunt

(And yes, I deliberately chose the Guardian - a bunch of sandal wearing, asparagus chewing hippies - for my source)

troposphere

Don't worry, it is being led by the guy in the middle.

Amerika

Maybe this is a chance for the American Muslim community to finally confront the fact that some of their young have embraced extremism... and hopefully find ways to combat it rather than just denying the truth.

An interesting perspective from someone who realizes and admits problems do exist:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-07/peter-kings-hearings-on-american-muslims-are-no-witch-hunt/?cid=hp:mainpromo7

Please don't condemn the source as irrelevant - just becasue it's a conservative oops... liberal product.

Aka Ishur

troposphere wrote: »

Don't worry, it is being led by the guy in the middle.

Matt Damon...

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

Maybe this is a chance for the American Muslim community to finally confront the fact that some of their young have embraced extremism... and hopefully find ways to combat it rather than just denying the truth.

No, this is a chance for populist politicians to appeal to bigots and idiots to win votes. Attacking Muslims is a soft political option; it clearly wins you a seat in Congress. There is a vast untapped reservoir of bigotry in the US, it fueled the contrived tea party (Around a quarter of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim)

Why does this poem seem apt right now?

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

alejandro1977

here's a bit I really can't believe
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/04/AR2011030406635_4.html

After Obama was elected president, King got a call from Rahm Emanuel, the incoming chief of staff. "President-elect Obama would like you to be ambassador to Ireland," said Emanuel, according to King's recollection of the conversation.

King said he thought hard about it over a long weekend, fantasizing about hosting his Irish relatives at the ambassador's 62-acre estate inside Dublin's Phoenix Park, where the Irish president also lives. But King declined the offer.

"I just felt I would be defending foreign policy I didn't agree with," said King, "and to be sitting there with a bunch of Europeans spouting anti-American stuff, I would have a hard time

Amerika

Denerick wrote: »

(Around a quarter of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim)

And around 48% of Americans right now think President Obama is doing a good job... your point?

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

You know, that could have been written by someone sitting in Twin Towers on 11-09-2001, who - like so many of us, refused to believe we were already at war with radical Islamic extremists.

Denerick

I don't think you got the point of that poem, written by a German pastor who initially supported the rise to power of the Nazis and turned a blind eye to growing repression.

America is not at war with Islam. It faces occasional terrorist threats from a bunch of idiots in a cave somewhere. This is a far cry from calling in members of your nation to an investigation for no reason whatsoever. This is an exploitation of mass idiocy and bigotry.

Amerika

Denerick wrote: »

I don't think you got the point of that poem,

I know the point of the poem, you just don't like my answer. People were already warning us about radical Islam factions at the time.

America is not at war with Islam.

You are correct, but radical Islamic extremism is at war with America.

Denerick

No! I didn't like your answer. I rarely like other people's answers.

There are people out to get the Americans. I get that. But hauling up American citizens in front of these witch hunt committees is exactly (As in textbook style) what will radicalise this population and alienate them even further from the country of your birth.

You claim to be a conservative. You claim to honour the constitution and the rights of all citizens to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Why on earth would you support this extraordinary and dystopian spectacle?

Amerika

Denerick wrote: »

There are people out to get the Americans. I get that.

Isn't that the point of these hearings?

You claim to be a conservative. You claim to honour the constitution and the rights of all citizens to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Why on earth would you support this extraordinary and dystopian spectacle?

Because I do understand we have enemies... both foreign and domestic. And refusing to acknowledge it and burying our heads in the sand is only a recipe for disaster - as has been proven on 9/11. And this hearing can be accomplished without taking away anyone’s rights, even though some might not be so "happy" about it.

spank_inferno

Denerick wrote: »

You claim to be a conservative. You claim to honour the constitution and the rights of all citizens to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'. Why on earth would you support this extraordinary and dystopian spectacle?

Their own life
Their own liberty
Their own happiness

They tend to hate others doing same..... especially ones that look different

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

You know, that could have been written by someone sitting in Twin Towers on 11-09-2001, who - like so many of us, refused to believe we were already at war with radical Islamic extremists.

If we have to sacrifice our ideals to fight them, haven't we already lost?

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

If we have to sacrifice our ideals to fight them, haven't we already lost?

Exactly what "ideals" are you referring to?

Not agreeing with the extremes of what was done in the past, but is FDR demonized... is he still not on your dimes?

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

Exactly what "ideals" are you referring to?

Not agreeing with the extremes of what was done in the past, but is FDR demonized... is he still not on your dimes?

Why do you support the interrogation of Muslim Americans by a clearly disgusting Republican congressman?

Amerika

Denerick wrote: »

Why do you support the interrogation of Muslim Americans by a clearly disgusting Republican congressman?

Oh bother... it's not interrogations. I do hope you can tell the difference.

And look who is in King's corner on the issue... The White House.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-09/peter-king-boasts-of-white-house-support-for-american-muslim-hearings/?cid=hp:mainpromo2

Einhard

Amerika wrote: »

Maybe this is a chance for the American Muslim community to finally confront the fact that some of their young have embraced extremism... and hopefully find ways to combat it rather than just denying the truth.

There have been numerous incidents over the past few years of Christian, right wing militia groups plotting harm against American targets because they disagree idealogically with the policies of the administration. There has been a sharp increase in the activities and rhetoric of such militas. In 1995, similar rhetoric culminated in the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. In light of this, shouldn't Congress establish committees to inquire into the radicalisation of so many Christian, right-wing groups and militias in America?

To anyone who doubts that Islamaphobia and naked intolerance is on the rise in America, I offer the following:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/anti-muslim_protestor_throws_crosses_at_feet_of_man_praying_by_white_house_video.php

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OeQ5dcBltg

Amerika

Hmmmm... I’ll see your isolated cross chucking, and raise you a couple thousand Americans murdered by fanatical Islamic extremists.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

Denerick

Amerika wrote: »

Hmmmm... I’ll see your isolated cross chucking, and raise you a couple thousand Americans murdered by fanatical Islamic extremists.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

Why are you quoting bigoted extremist websites?

Do you want to see the death of the American Republic? Do you want to alienate your Muslim minority? Do you want to see an authoritarian system? Do you want to see your political system subservient to the bigoted whims of the masses? The time to make a stand is now. Your beloved constitution is at stake.

Why aren't the tea partiers protesting at this tyranny? Why isn't Glenn Beck foaming at the mouth over this? Why isn't Sarah Palin confusing terminology and attempting to express some kind of opinion given to her by some background hack? Or is ok to persecute people with brown skin and strange religious beliefs?

Einhard

Amerika wrote: »

Hmmmm... I’ll see your isolated cross chucking, and raise you a couple thousand Americans murdered by fanatical Islamic extremists.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm

Yes, but the difference is, you'll find nobody here, or in the mainstream of American opinion, defending, or failing to condemn, the atrocities of 9/11. However, when it comes to anti-Muslim behaviour and rhetoric, there are many who will not only condone it, but partake in it. Indeed, I think that, rather than condemn such activity as that in the video, you provided a link to 9/11 casualties, illustrates my point.

And would you care to answer my question? Should the representatives of extreme right-wing Christian groups be hauled before Congress to explain the radicalisation within their ranks?

Amerika

Einhard wrote: »

And would you care to answer my question? Should the representatives of extreme right-wing Christian groups be hauled before Congress to explain the radicalisation within their ranks?

If you can show me proof and not just conjecture that "extreme right-wing Christian groups" (as you label them) have systematically caused harm, or organized to cause harm against Americans, then yes... bring them before Congress.

Honestly, I would also like representatives of the various Tea Parties brought before Congress. Then maybe the people will see beyond the lies of the media.
Let's start with this organizer.
http://watching-tv.ew.com/2010/03/31/david-letterman-pam-stout-tea-party/

Einhard

Amerika wrote: »

If you can show me proof and not just conjecture that "extreme right-wing Christian groups" (as you label them) , then yes... bring them before Congress.

Oh, but where's the proof that American Muslim groups "have systematically caused harm, or organized to cause harm against Americans". Where's the proof for that Amerika? Or is there, as I suspect, one rule for Muslims and another for Christians? It's funny how those who proclaim their devotion to liberty and equality the most loudly, are always the most willing to dispense with such .

As for the activities of extreme right-wing Christian groups, if you, as an American, have failed to notice the newspaper and other media reports on that score, then you are far too biased to be reasoned with.

Also, I read that article you linked to, with the gentle old lady, as if the condition of being gentle, and old, and female, somehow precluded extremist ideas. I actually read the whole article, including the point where she refuses to accept Obama as an American citizen. Right...

I also noted that she was a member of a group called Friends of Liberty. Now, I've never heard of this group, so I had a look at their website. Under the Corporation of the US tab, I found links to an essay indicting all American public servants for treason, and including veiled threats of violent retribution against them. The reason? For involvement with the American Federal Reserve. According to the essay, American public servants "are willing or stupidly compliant parties to the plunder, bankruptcy, subjugation, ruin and destruction of [the peoples'] lives and country". According to the somewhat hysterical author, these civil servants "have now been placed on notice". "If you continue with this course, you will have natural and moral law and higher powers to answer to, not to mention all those you have wronged under color of law." Right...

There are many other, frankly crazy, notions and ideas espoused on that site. Now, you referenced that woman as the moderate face of the Tea Party. And she certainly seems like a nice, amiable old woman. Yet, once one scratches the surface somewhat, and learns something of her beliefs and affiliations, a different picture emerges. I've no bone to pick with her. her beliefs are her own, and she's entitled to them. But if this is the moderate face of the Tea Party, I'm in no hurry to see its extreme face anywhere near power!

Amerika

Einhard wrote: »

Oh, but where's the proof that American Muslim groups "have systematically caused harm, or organized to cause harm against Americans". Where's the proof for that Amerika? Or is there, as I suspect, one rule for Muslims and another for Christians? It's funny how those who proclaim their devotion to liberty and equality the most loudly, are always the most willing to dispense with such

In fairness, if on that linked list, had “muslim” been replaced with “XYZ Organization (a right-wing Christian group)”, I would say there is a systematic and organized cause of harm. I would expect an investigation into right-wing Christian groups.

What is wrong with examining "The Extent of Radicalization in the American Muslim Community and that Community's Response?" One has to ask, was their outrage when the Senator Joseph Lieberman (former D-Conn.) held 14 similar hearings between 2006 and 2009, and Representative Jane Harman (D-Calif.) had six in the House of Representatives? Could it be because King has a (R) behind his name, and the Democrats need their negative attention diverted?

And why not try and get answers to homegrown terrorists? Some of the highest profile recent arrests involved a Muslim Army doctor who killed 13 people, and a Muslim immigrant from Pakistan involved in a car bomb plot. There have been 22 arrests of homegrown jihadis from May 2009 to November 2010.

What is so wrong with trying to figure out the who, why, how, and what of homegrown terrorism, which has been driven by their concept of Islam?

- - - -

So you think that lady has undertones of evil eh?

Chuck Stone

Amerika wrote: »

What is so wrong with trying to figure out the who, why, how, and what of homegrown terrorism, which has been driven by their concept of Islam?

Is this the same why that was completely ignored by the US establishment in the days months weeks and years after 9/11 and still is?

If the American establishment had tackled the why question in those times we might well have a lot less fundamentalist extremeism in the world, a lot less dead Iraqis and a lot less dead US soldiers.

Amerika

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Is this the same why that was completely ignored by the US establishment in the days months weeks and years after 9/11 and still is?

If the American establishment had tackled the why question in those times we might well have a lot less fundamentalist extremeism in the world, a lot less dead Iraqis and a lot less dead US soldiers.

Yeah... why?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Exactly what "ideals" are you referring to?

Either our country is free or it isn't. This came to a head with the "Ground Zero Mosque".

We can oppose Sharia Law because it is what it is, a system of governance, one which would not be compatible with our way of life.

But to single out muslims because a fraction of them want to impose Sharia Law or commit criminal acts? I don't understand. There have been plenty of Christian Terrorists in our time: Where is the Witch-Hunt on Christianity? We Witch-Hunted communism because we felt it was being controlled by a foreign power. Why haven't we fought Catholicism when we know, matter of factly, that it's controlled by a foreign power?

I understand that if you're trying to prevent radical islamic terrorism your only logical point of investigation would be toward Islam, and Muslims, but in the process you place us at war not just with Radical Islam, but with Islam. Putting us at war with a Religion is a direct contravention of this Country's Constitution. Nevermind the fact that in doing so you facilitate the Radicalization of Islam; In the same way you Radicalize Christianity which has largely been at the forefront of this.

Einhard

Amerika wrote: »

What is wrong with examining "The Extent of Radicalization in the American Muslim Community and that Community's Response?" One has to ask, was their outrage when the Senator Joseph Lieberman (former D-Conn.) held 14 similar hearings between 2006 and 2009, and Representative Jane Harman (D-Calif.) had six in the House of Representatives? Could it be because King has a (R) behind his name, and the Democrats need their negative attention diverted?

First off, I didn't know about those alleged earlier hearings. I'd have objected to them too. Secondly, if these alleged hearings were already carried out, why the need for King to launch these ones? I thought Repubicans wished to eradicate Federal duplication and inefficencies.

Also, considering the spike in arrests of right-wing, Christian extremists since Obama was elected, and that charges against them included conspiracy to murder and attack federal property, as well as charges of actual murder, along with the fact that the second greatest terror attack on American soil was perpetrated by such individuals, why hasn't there been similar efforts to investigate the rise of such groups since late 2008, and their radicalisation, both of which have been well documented?

Afterall, right-wing American Christian extremists have been responsible for the deaths of far more of their fellow countrymen over the past 15 years, than American Muslims. But I guess Muslims look and sound different, and pray to a different God, so they have to expect different treatment eh? I mean, that's what liberty and equality means to those who espouse it most.

And why not try and get answers to homegrown terrorists? Some of the highest profile recent arrests involved a Muslim Army doctor who killed 13 people, and a Muslim immigrant from Pakistan involved in a car bomb plot. There have been 22 arrests of homegrown jihadis from May 2009 to November 2010.

Hauling in members of the American Muslim community to discuss Islamic terrorism, whether internal or external, will do nothing to aid understanding of such extremism. What it will do however, is paint moderate Muslims with the brush of extremism. Did the British every haul in prominent members of the Irish community in England to answer for the acitivities of the IRA? No, and the reason they didn't, is because they knew it would have constituted an enormous slur on an entire community.


- - - -

So you think that lady has undertones of evil eh?

No, but I do think that comment has overtones of stupidity.

Chuck Stone

Amerika wrote: »

Yeah... why?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=motives+for+the+9+11+attacks

Overheal

it also turns out peter king sympathized (and some sources say collaborated) with a religiously based terrorist group in the 1980s: the IRA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/10/peter-king-muslim-hearings-ira-supporter

Can't wait for the congressional hearing he will have to stage against himself.

southsiderosie

Amerika wrote: »

What is so wrong with trying to figure out the who, why, how, and what of homegrown terrorism, which has been driven by their concept of Islam?

Because neither Rep. King nor his Republican colleagues in Congress are calling highly-publicized hearings to deal with the rise of extremism among Americans involved in militia activity, despite the fact that the second most deadly terrorist attack on the US mainland targeted American civilians and was carried out by homegrown terrorists.

Because Peter King, of all people, has some nerve trying to position himself as an anti-terrorism crusader, given that he was a longtime defender of the IRA.

Because pockets of the Irish-American community funded the IRA for years, yet the entire Irish community weren't labelled as supporters of terrorism the way the Muslim-American community is being labelled today.

Because as an American Catholic with roots in Ireland, Peter King should know better than to target religious minorities, given the hatred targeted at Irish Catholics for their religious beliefs in the late 19th and early 20th century US.

The hypocrisy of these hearings and the hatred they represent is mind-boggling.

Chuck Stone

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/03/10

Overheal

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/house_homeland_security_chair.html

It's not enough for King that Muslims be good americans, but they have to be good americans that do investigative work. If they don't, they're apparently enemies of the state.

Help me out here folks, have any of you heard of these Specifics that King is talking about? 'The muslim community isn't doing enough to stop terrorism!' OK then Mr. King, what would you have them do? I haven't heard.

But I have heard this:

But King tends to overlook data that undermines his arguments—like a recent report from Duke and the University of North Carolina that found that it was fellow Muslims who turned in 48 of the 120 Muslims suspected of plotting domestic terrorist attacks since September 11, 2001. He refuses to name the sources who claim Muslims are uncooperative (he says they’re always off the record with him). And the list of witnesses he plans to call is a subject of controversy as well. He hasn’t asked any experts on the threat of domestic terror to testify about the true extent of the threat (one witness invited by Democrats on the committee, Sheriff Leroy Baca of Los Angeles County, recently said he hadn’t heard any complaints about Muslim noncooperation).

http://nymag.com/news/politics/peter-king-2011-3/index2.html

It truly is a Witch Hunt with no specifics.

In 2007, King told a reporter that America had “too many mosques”—a quote he later clarified by saying “too many mosques in this country do not cooperate with law enforcement.”

Sigmuuuuuunnd!

Overheal

Video of his comments: http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0907/Rep_King_There_are_too_many_mosques_in_this_country_.html