Deutsche Bahn fine

Eccentric Toast

Hey

I got a fine off the Deutsche Bahn while visiting Berlin. I was on the train to the Airport to go home on the last day and had no money left so i thought i could get two stops in i had bought a ticket every other day while there and didn't get asked once. Anyway the fine they gave me while on the train was to be paid into their specific bank and i had 14 days to pay, how was i to do this if i was to get a flight in one hour. The fine was also entirely in German when I asked the conductor how to pay the fine when I got home, he wouldn't answer even though up to that point his English was perfect. I recently got a letter in the post, again completely in German. I understand that i was in Germany and their language is German but if your going to fine tourists on the last stop to the Airport the majority of them are not going to speak German and why would they not have some sort of payment by card there and then. I was willing to pay the fine but because of the lack of information while receiving the fine and in the letter i received I'm not willing to pay more than the first fee. The fine has doubled now because i couldn't pay it. I don't want to keep getting letters in the post and was wondering what options do i have here. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

jetsonx

Ze Germans can be very persistant you know....

Worst that can happen is bad debt will be handed over to an
international debt recovery company who have an office in Dublin...they might
send you a letter informing you they are now looking after the debt.

In reality, the cost of collection will be greater than the debt therefore, you will probably get 3-4 more letters and then they will stop.

Eccentric Toast

Will this effect me in any way if i was to travel back to Germany in the future?

munchkin_utd

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

Will this effect me any way if i was to travel back to Germany in the future?

yup

the police computers (similar to in ireland with pulse) hold the record of your past misdemeanours amongst other things.

When you enter germany (or leave) at an airport, your passport is scanned, and all your info pops up.

Still, just avoid arriving by plane, drive over the border from Belgium or something and you'll be grand.

undo

You can pay by wire transfer from your Irish account. This is called a SEPA (Single Euro Payment Area) transfer. By EU law, your bank cannot charge you more for a SEPA transfer than for a domestic one. So if you want to pay the fine and make sure it is cleared completely, just wire the money.

munchkin_utd

right,
you can very very very.... easily pay this by bank transfer to:

FS/ServiceCenter FN 76518 Baden-Baden
Commerzbank Baden-Baden

S.W.I.F.T.-BIC-Code: COBA DE FF
IBAN: DE02 6624 0002 0115 5076 00

http://www.db-fahrpreisnacherhebung.de/infobereich/informationenzuzahlungen/index.html

It shouldnt cost you a cent as bank transfers europe wide are free with most banks (sometimes only online is free, depends on your bank)

the contact details/ call centre number is here:
http://www.db-fahrpreisnacherhebung.de/kontakt/index.html

undo

If you do choose to send the money, make sure to select/tell the bank you want a SEPA transfer. AIB for example offer you a choice between "Paylink Standard" (SEPA, same price as a transfer in Ireland) and "Paylink Urgent" (€12.50 transfer fee). There is no need to choose the expensive option. A SEPA transfer is, again by EU law, completed within at most 3 business days.

Eccentric Toast

I dont know what im reading when i read the fine. Is this legal or should i be able to request an English one.

What are the consquences of not paying it?

undo

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

I dont know what im reading when i read the fine. Is this legal or should i be able to request an English one.

Why would German law require an English translation to be provided? You were caught without a ticket in Germany. The fine was issued in Germany. The fact that you do not happen to live in Germany does not really change anything.

That said, it would of course make sense in this globalized world for them to provide information in other languages. But they apparently choose not to.

What are the consquences of not paying it?

They may keep going after you for the fine, adding additional fees and pestering you with calls and letters. If you ever get into the situation of having to identify yourself to a DB employee, they may take that opportunity to "catch" you and try to get the money off you.

Separately, they may initiate criminal proceedings. It is not very likely that a German prosecutor will try to get you sentenced and stuck into jail - but the maximum punishment for fare evasion is 1 year jail.

Badgermonkey

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

I was willing to pay the fine but because of the lack of information while receiving the fine and in the letter i received I'm not willing to pay more than the first fee. The fine has doubled now because i couldn't pay it.

Sorry to say but that's some leap in logic you've made there.

Eccentric Toast

I can read numbers as in "EUR00.00" just not the German. The original number has doubled since issued

g5fd6ow0hseima

munchkin_utd wrote: »

yup

the police computers (similar to in ireland with pulse) hold the record of your past misdemeanours amongst other things.

When you enter germany (or leave) at an airport, your passport is scanned, and all your info pops up.

Still, just avoid arriving by plane, drive over the border from Belgium or something and you'll be grand.

providing he presented his passport to the inspector on the train.

Eccentric Toast

I had to provide my passport, I was Irish and on the train to the last stop which was the Airport with luggage so it was very unlikely id have no passport! :mad:

I would have no problem paying it if I could understand it, but it couldnt be harder to do. Why cant they just supply a bank giro you can just hand into your bank which pays it off?

undo

My lawyer once boarded the wrong train in Hungary. He got checked and the inspector started a 30 minute monologue, all in Hungarian. When you are in a foreign country, you have to accept that officials will only speak their own language.

(Fortunately for my lawyer, communication in this case proved so difficult that the ticket inspector just gave up.)

Eccentric Toast

@Undo
Taking the SEPA method how do they know that the money transfer came from me and what it's for?

undo

The first link munchkin_utd posted says:

Bitte geben Sie bei Ihrer Überweisung immer die Fahrpreisnacherhebungsnummer an!

This translates as:

When wiring money, please always reference your fine number.

So there will be a fine number (labeled "Fahrpreisnacherhebungsnummer" on the document you got). You put that in the reference field when transferring the money.

Fr Tod Umptious

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

I had to provide my passport, I was Irish and on the train to the last stop which was the Airport with luggage so it was very unlikely id have no passport! :mad:

I would have no problem paying it if I could understand it, but it couldnt be harder to do. Why cant they just supply a bank giro you can just hand into your bank which pays it off?

I think the poster was referring to having to present your passport for inspection on a train entering Germany.

I have travelled by train between Holland and Germany about 8 times in the past 2 years and only once have border police from Holland or Germany come on board requesting to see passports.
And when they did check my passport he just look out some sort of 'looking glass' to verify it was authentic, no scanning or further inspection.

Anyway OP back to the fine.
Just use babel fish or something to translate it and pay it.
To be honest it seems like if you put a bit of effort into finding out how to pay the fine in the first place then you wouldf have saved yourself a lot of hassel and the fine would now not be doubled.

undo

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I think the poster was referring to having to present your passport for inspection on a train entering Germany.

This i actually not as unlikely as it sounds. Deutsche Bahn has had an eternal "special" for years now where travel across the entire country is only €29 or €39 if bought online far enough in advance. This is a killer offer. But when buying your ticket online, it gets personalized - and so you need to disclose who you are. This is where I am thinking DB may take the opportunity to check against their fare evader DB. They may try to get their money then. Or they may choose not to sell you a ticket. Better sort this out and have a clear conscience going forward.

munchkin_utd

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

I dont know what im reading when i read the fine. Is this legal or should i be able to request an English one.

What are the consquences of not paying it?

"Wer ohne gültige Fahrkarte ein (öffentliches) Beförderungsmittel benutzt, macht sich der Erschleichung von Leistungen nach § 265a StGB strafbar (mögliche Strafe: Geldstrafe oder Freiheitsstrafe bis zu einem Jahr). Die Strafanzeige ist regelmäßig an einen Strafantrag des Beförderungsunternehmens gebunden, von dem in bestimmten Fällen Gebrauch gemacht werden kann."

= not having a ticket is prosecutable under § 265a StGB which incurs a fine OR up to a year in jail.

undo

munchkin_utd wrote: »

which incurs a fine OR up to a year in jail

And just to clarify, this is a separate fine from the one you have to pay to DB. One is a civil matter, the other one criminal.

munchkin_utd

and also,
we are being asked as to what possible consequences there are AND how can the OP dodge being caught.

Unless someone has a crystal ball, who knows how integrated the European justice systems will become over the coming years?

Already, Germany, France & pretty much every other western EU country is part of the Schengen common travel area.
If at some stage, the border guards in all countries decide to have a common database, then you are looking at trying to sneak onto the continent undetected, which pretty much means ferries!

The fact that currently you can dodge proscution in one EU country when living in another, is an anomoly in the whole european unifying project, and cant be depended on to last forever.

undo

Also remember the amounts of money we are talking about here. The fine for fare evasion in Germany is €40. If the OP's fine has doubled by now, this would be €80. Is this amount of money really worth the risk of getting caught in the far, far future one day?

Eccentric Toast

undo wrote: »

Also remember the amounts of money we are talking about here. The fine for fare evasion in Germany is €40. If the OP's fine has doubled by now, this would be €80. Is this amount of money really worth the risk of getting caught in the far, far future one day?

Dead on and thats the reason i dont mind paying it but it could be alittle easier. The reference number i need is most likely this one
"Kunden-Referenzummer" S.11.0393236.01.5_NAME
So i just wire the money with that reference number and request a reciept and it should be all sorted? Because ive never had to wire transfer money before.

undo

The website mentioned a "Fahrpreisnacherhebungsnummer". If there is no such number, "Kunden-Referenzummer" may be what you need.

If you want to make sure, just scan the note you got from them (or take a picture with your camera if you have no scanner), black-out any personal data and attach it to the thread. One of us German speakers can then translate it for you and make sure everything is correct.

When wiring money, there is a field on the form (whether online or on paper) into which you can enter a reference. That reference will appear on the receiver's bank statement along with the amount you wired. So yes, this is where you put the reference number, allowing them to figure out which fine exactly you are paying.

And on a side note, I find it amazing how wire transfers are such a foreign thing to Irish people. Everywhere else in Europe, a wire transfer is the standard way to pay for purchases and to send money to your friends. Cheques and money orders have disappeared decades ago.

Eccentric Toast

Here is what i recieved in the post

undo

The orange thing in your second scan is a German wire transfer form. So you got it all right - what is entered there under "Kunden-Referenznummer" is exactly what you should use as the reference when doing a transfer from Ireland. Again, remember to do a standard SEPA transfer. Do not be lured into paying €10 or more for some kind of "urgent" service.

Edit: I read both forms now. You are requested to fill in the second one and send it back to them. It is actually not written by DB but by some debt collection agency to whom they have passed on your case. If you want to send in the form as they ask you, you should tick the following:

[X] Ich (wir) erkennen die Gesamtforderung in Höhe von EUR 79,61 (Stand: 12.03.2011) zuzüglich der weiteren Zinsen und der Kontoführungsgebühren an.

[X] per Überweisung

Then, under "Ort, Datum" enter your city and the current date and sign under "Unterschrift".

Gemma01

undo wrote: »

This i actually not as unlikely as it sounds. Deutsche Bahn has had an eternal "special" for years now where travel across the entire country is only €29 or €39 if bought online far enough in advance. This is a killer offer. But when buying your ticket online, it gets personalized - and so you need to disclose who you are. This is where I am thinking DB may take the opportunity to check against their fare evader DB. They may try to get their money then. Or they may choose not to sell you a ticket. Better sort this out and have a clear conscience going forward.

The reason you have to provide your details when buying online (and show id to the inspector) has nothing to do with this, it's because otherwise you could just print off as many tickets as you like for the price of one.

undo

Gemma01 wrote: »

The reason you have to provide your details when buying online (and show id to the inspector) has nothing to do with this, it's because otherwise you could just print off as many tickets as you like for the price of one.

Of course. But it is a point at which they get to know who you are. So for all we know, they might as well throw in a database query at that point and check whether you have any open fines.

Solair

If you have online banking, you can do this *very* easily, just ensure that you include the S.11 number that they have on their form and on the top of the letter as the reference number with your payment.

Remember, it's VERY important to include that long reference number, EXACTLY as printed, otherwise the transaction may not be picked up at the other end and just get stuck in a holding account.

The transaction will usually be entirely free of charge as it's a Eurozone payment and it should only take a maximum of a couple of days to complete at most.

If you've something like AIB Online banking and a code card, you can do this entirely yourself.

If you're having trouble, go to a bank branch and ask them what to do. They'll figure it out.

They regularly do SEPA transfers.

You can contact the Germany Embassy for help::

German Embassy Dublin
31 Trimleston Avenue
Booterstown, Blackrock
Co. Dublin

Tel.: 01-269 3011 - or -3772
Fax.: 01-269 3946

Cork:

Germany Consulate Cork

c/o Ronan Daly Jermyn Solicitors, 1st Flr, 12 South Mall
Cork
Ireland
Phone:
+353-21-480-2700
Fax:+353-21-480-2790
Email:german.consul(at)rdj.ie

Eccentric Toast

undo wrote: »

The orange thing in your second scan is a German wire transfer form. So you got it all right - what is entered there under "Kunden-Referenznummer" is exactly what you should use as the reference when doing a transfer from Ireland. Again, remember to do a standard SEPA transfer. Do not be lured into paying €10 or more for some kind of "urgent" service.

Edit: I read both forms now. You are requested to fill in the second one and send it back to them. It is actually not written by DB but by some debt collection agency to whom they have passed on your case. If you want to send in the form as they ask you, you should tick the following:

[X] Ich (wir) erkennen die Gesamtforderung in Höhe von EUR 79,61 (Stand: 12.03.2011) zuzüglich der weiteren Zinsen und der Kontoführungsgebühren an.

[X] per Überweisung

Then, under "Ort, Datum" enter your city and the current date and sign under "Unterschrift".

So i fill in the orange form hand it to my bank and ask for a sepa transfer get a reciept. Tick the two boxes and send a copy of the receipt off with it to specified address? I dont really want to get this wrong because i plan on going back to Germany in the future.

Solair

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

So i fill in the orange form hand it to my bank and ask for a sepa transfer get a reciept. Tick the two boxes and send a copy of the receipt off with it to specified address? I dont really want to get this wrong because i plan on going back to Germany in the future.

You can do that, although the bank might not let you as it's a form designed for use in German banks like the form you get at the end of your phonebill here.

I'd say just go into a bank branch and discuss it and bring the letter.

They should be able to explain it.

The most important thing is to absolutely ensure that that S11. number is included with the payment or it won't be picked-up at the far end as being connected to your fine.

undo

Eccentric Toast wrote: »

So i fill in the orange form hand it to my bank and ask for a sepa transfer get a reciept.

No, this orange form only works within Germany. The "Konto-Nr." is a German bank account number and the "Bankleitzahl" is a German sort code. Neither is of any use to an Irish bank. You need to fill in your bank's own form, using an international bank account number (IBAN) and sort code (BIC). These are:

IBAN: DE36660100750025403755
BIC: PBNKDEFF660

Some Irish banks also want to know the receiving bank's address. It is not really necessary for anything but if they insist, here it is:

Postbank
76127 Karlsruhe
Germany

Solair

undo wrote: »

No, this orange form only works within Germany. The "Konto-Nr." is a German bank account number and the "Bankleitzahl" is a German sort code. Neither is of any use to an Irish bank. You need to fill in your bank's own form, using an international bank account number (IBAN) and sort code (BIC). These are:

IBAN: DE36660100750025403755
BIC: PBNKDEFF660

Some Irish banks also want to know the receiving bank's address. It is not really necessary for anything but if they insist, here it is:

Postbank
76127 Karlsruhe
Germany

It's only in case there are any errors in the IBAN or BIC codes

undo

Solair wrote: »

It's only in case there are any errors in the IBAN or BIC codes

In theory maybe. In practice, I looked up the BIC from the IBAN and the address from the BIC. So if the IBAN is wrong, it will all still match but point to the wrong account.

Solair

undo wrote: »

In theory maybe. In practice, I looked up the BIC from the IBAN and the address from the BIC. So if the IBAN is wrong, it will all still match but point to the wrong account.

Well you can work everything out from just the IBAN on its own. However, they use the BIC as a kind of 2nd check. The bank address is just Irish banks being a tad paranoid / stuck in their old ways.

AIB online banking for example only requires the IBAN and BIC, it automatically looks up the bank address.

There are also various features to prevent incorrect entry of data : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number#IBAN_validation_features

The main thing the OP needs to absolutely ensure is that the fine's reference number is included with the transaction. Sending money to another Eurozone country is as easy as transferring it to another bank in Ireland these days.

I sent money to my Spanish bank account at 2pm on Wednesday from AIB and it was in the account in Spain by 8am on Thursday.

I actually prefer these kinds of payment system as the payer is fundamentally in control where as with credit/debit cards you are placing a lot of trust in the payee to not rip you off as you're effectively giving them open access to your credit/debit card if it's not a PIN authenticated transaction i.e. it's online / over the phone.

In an ideal world, you should be able to send funds straight from your bank account to an individual or company and have the whole thing happen instantly.

undo

Solair wrote: »

In an ideal world, you should be able to send funds straight from your bank account to an individual or company and have the whole thing happen instantly.

Sure, sofortüberweisung.de - very popular for online shopping these days.

Eccentric Toast

Well did all what i was suppose to but as i expected ive got another letter and i know its not good if any of you could be so kind as to translate it for me again?

undo

It's a reminder that you still owe them €79.62 and that the money is due by the 24th of March. They are also warning that if you do not pay, they will pass on the case to their legal department and you will have to pay their lawyers' fees.

When did you you wire the money? By law, it cannot take longer than three bank working days to clear.

Edit: The letter also says they would accept payment in multiple installments and would also be willing to discuss the matter if there are any open questions. You can definitely send them a message in English saying that you paid, when you paid and possibly with a copy of the wire transfer form attached. They may be ignorant enough to only write in German but when they receive a letter in English, they should make the effort and find someone in their company who can read the language.

Since you did the right thing and paid up before the deadline, it would be good to make sure you do not end up owing them some extra fees in case the banks feck it up and add some illegal delays.

Solair

Send them a letter, in English together with proof of payment i.e. a photocopy of the bank payment or a print out of some sort.

If I were you, I would fax it to the number they have listed, 00 49 1805 040004 22 urgently and send a second copy by registered post.

Explain in the letter that you are both faxing and senting it by *registered post* too.

This could get very nasty and expensive if they "go legal".

It's possible that their systems haven't picked up your payment at the other end.

Basically, when you transfer money in payment for any bill it just goes to a business current account with a reference number. The company's computer system picks up that number, or it's manually processed in the case of some smaller operations.

If the format of the transaction code was slightly off or, there was some error in providing it it's possible that they might have to do a quick manual search for the transaction. So, I would suggest that you send all info proving that you have paid it.

It really shouldn't be this much of a problem!

Stinicker

I had a german company once claiming I owed them money, I got a few threatening letters from their Debt collectors based in Cyprus. I never made contact and just ignored them, eventually they stopped and nothing ever came of it.

I visited Germany twice since and this notion of they will nick you at the Airport is insane, maybe if you just bankrupted one of their banks or something.

Ignore them and claim you are Jewish and it is discrimination and it will suddenly vanish.

undo

As was discussed at length in this thread, there *currently* very little risk of them actually enforcing the fine in Ireland. But since it will stay on record for years to come and the EU keeps growing closer, it is an uncomfortable thing to have haunting you.

Also, DB is special in that OP is likely to do business with them again and as I pointed out before, may be in the situation that he has to disclose his identity to them. This would be a direct confrontation with the company that he owes money to - and it would give them an opportunity to annoy him about it.

So it is best for peace of mind to pay and be done with it.

And finally, OP admits he did not have a ticket... so it is a justified fine. Paying it is simply the decent thing to do.