Wire light from socket

Bill Electrical Aprentice

can i take a feed from a socket over a counter top in a kitchen to a light under the cupboard in the kitchen.?

maxamillius

nope!against regs,also a socket has a permanent feed so unless you want the light to be on all the time it would be useless!is there no ceiling lights you can take it off!

BarryM

maxamillius wrote: »

nope!against regs,also a socket has a permanent feed so unless you want the light to be on all the time it would be useless!is there no ceiling lights you can take it off!

Correct, but you could fit a switch... NOT suggesting you do it at all. It is often poss to feed from a ceiling light down the back of the cupboards, just a suggestion; or, any room to just plug in a small lamp?? .

Bill Electrical Aprentice

there is going 2 be a switch on it i dont see why its against regs the light is only gonna be on for about about half an hour a day and there is only three sockets on the 20amp circuit,im not saying its not in the regs just dont see how it will do any harm,

i am not too clued up on the regulations but i would assume its in the regs cos if someone down the line wanted to loop the light (that you would have wired from the socket) to a new light and didnt know how that it was looped from a socket, then they would turn off the lighting feeds at the fuse board and get a nice little shock when they go to disconnect from the light. why not just loop from a light point? i'm in south africa and the old houses here have dodgey wiring done so when i go to loop i just trip the whole lot and its a pain to do that

Bill Electrical Aprentice

thats a good point but its my house and im not going taking down the celling to bring a cable from the light for a little counter top light.

M cebee

you fit a 3amp switched fuse spur beside the socket

and drop down to the light

Bruthal

maxamillius wrote: »

nope!against regs,also a socket has a permanent feed so unless you want the light to be on all the time it would be useless!is there no ceiling lights you can take it off!

Well i dont see whats wrong with going from a radial socket to a switched fused spur in 2.5, then out to the light.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

you fit a 3amp switched fuse spur beside the socket

and drop down to the light

In ahead of me again:pac::)

Bruthal

Bill Electrical Aprentice wrote: »

thats a good point but its my house and im not going taking down the celling to bring a cable from the light for a little counter top light.

You can just do as m cebee said there, put a switched fused spur near the socket and wire the spur in as if its a socket, i.e. in the socket circuit, then from the spur out terminals up to the light in 1.5 wiring.

I often wired outside lights like that, with the addition of a double pole switch to isolate in case of water problems.

Bill Electrical Aprentice

thanks guys

indie armada

could the situation arise that if the bulb blew it would trip the rcd, knocking out all the power to the sockets and killing the power to important appliences like freezers ect

Bruthal

indie armada wrote: »

could the situation arise that if the bulb blew it would trip the rcd, knocking out all the power to the sockets and killing the power to important appliences like freezers ect

Its not likely to trip the RCD as the blowing bulb can only really cause an over current between live and neutral, and not to earth, and this will likely just blow the 3 amp fuse which should be fitted to the switched fused spur if the blowing bulb does cause a bit of an over current

indie armada

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its not likely to trip the RCD as the blowing bulb can only really cause an over current between live and neutral, and not to earth, and this will likely just blow the 3 amp fuse which should be fitted to the switched fused spur if the blowing bulb does cause a bit of an over current

cool...thanks for that.

Randyleprechaun

Wire the light in 2.5mm2 and you don't need a spur imo.

Also, if any one goes to work on the light and turns of the lighting MCB(s) and gets a shock, then that's their own fault as you should always verify that you have isolated the power.

Bruthal

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

Wire the light in 2.5mm2 and you don't need a spur imo.

And why would you wire it without the fused spur? It not only offers better protection and fuse discrimination, it can also be the light switch. Anything plugged into sockets has a fuse in its plug too.

It would not be great practice to have a 20amp MCB as the first protective item for a light, even if the cable is 2.5 right to the light.

Also, if any one goes to work on the light and turns of the lighting MCB(s) and gets a shock, then that's their own fault as you should always verify that you have isolated the power.

We would hope so anyway.

Randyleprechaun

MCB's only there to protect the cable, not the light

Bruthal

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

MCB's only there to protect the cable, not the light

Thats just regurgitated stuff from text books and lecturers even if technically correct. It is there and rated to protect the cable alright, but why bother with fused plugs then, and just use 2.5 right to the appliance. A fuse closer to the load allows descrimination to prevent the 20 amp MCB tripping when a tv etc has a problem, or a plug in lamp. And reduces fire risks.

It could be a 32 amp breaker on a ring main also. Not great to feed a light with that either.

Fuses and MCB`s may be there to protect cables, but they do offer some protection to appliances also, no matter what we may be told as apprentices. A short in a cooker element, or oven light i had a while back, did trip the 32 amp breaker. So it did offer protection to the appliance (although not in preventing elements blowing or shorts in oven lights), even if its design rating is toward the cable size feeding the cooker.

By having the fused spur between the socket and the light, the light can be wired in better suited 1.5 cable. Terminating 2.5 into lights could be frustrating. A fault on the light wont be as likely to trip the MCB either with a 3 amp fuse before it. And a fused spur could be wired into a socket ring main too, and feed the light through its fuse.

Going straight from a socket to a light fitting with 2.5 through a light switch would be a bit silly in my opinion anyway.

DannySparks

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

Wire the light in 2.5mm2 and you don't need a spur imo.

Also, if any one goes to work on the light and turns of the lighting MCB(s) and gets a shock, then that's their own fault as you should always verify that you have isolated the power.

thats is quite simply dangerous stupid advice to give someone..

SparKing

robbie7730 wrote: »

Fuses and MCB`s may be there to protect cables, but they do offer some protection to appliances also, no matter what we may be told as apprentices. A short in a cooker element, or oven light i had a while back, did trip the 32 amp breaker. So it did offer protection to the appliance (although not in preventing elements blowing or shorts in oven lights), even if its design rating is toward the cable size feeding the cooker.

Any prevention of damage to an appliance due to a fuse/mcb tripping would be purely incidental in my opinion. The fuse protects the cable only.

Bruthal

SparKing wrote: »

Any prevention of damage to an appliance due to a fuse/mcb tripping would be purely incidental in my opinion. The fuse protects the cable only.

Thats fair enough, and as i have already said, is correct, i said in my previous post it offers protection within the appliance, not to preventing damage to the appliance. MCB`s offer overload protection which protects the cable, and short circuit protection, which also protects the cable.

A short circuit inside a cooker should trip the MCB. So it does give some protection with faults in appliances such as cookers, showers and immersions which have no further overload protection after the MCB. And by tripping with short circuits in these appliances, the MCB is still performing its primary function of protecting the cable. This is why MCB`s are rated to the load, they are not really sized to the cable.

To suggest wiring straight from a socket to a light in 2.5 to save using a fused spur is not great though. And the socket circuit could be a ring main with a 32amp MCB. A spur can be put into the ring, and feed the light. But a 2.5 cable from the ring straight to the light would not be too good.

A kettle would be a similar example to the suggestion of feeding the light direct with 2.5 cable. Kettles have 2.5 flex to them. So why bother with the plug fuse in them?

cast_iron

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

Wire the light in 2.5mm2 and you don't need a spur imo.

But why bother with trying to work two 2.5 cables into a light fitting (usually not designed to for cable that size). If I remember right, a fused spur is required where a light is fed off a socket circuit, but I'm sure Mcebee can clear that one up for us:)

Bruthal

cast_iron wrote: »

But why bother with trying to work two 2.5 cables into a light fitting (usually not designed to for cable that size). If I remember right, a fused spur is required where a light is fed off a socket circuit, but I'm sure Mcebee can clear that one up for us:)

He probably will, but it hardly needs clearing up. Its electrical common sense really.

Solair

If it's coming off a radial circuit, a fused, switched spur with a 3amp fuse fitted should suffice i.e. it's *exactly* the same level of protect that is afforded to a lamp plugged into a wall socket with a 3amp fuse in the plug.

You should never connect any appliance directly to a socket circuit in Ireland without a fused-switched spur unit or a plug and socket.

If the socket circuit is a radial circuit i.e. the MCB is 16 or 20Amps you should use at least 2.5mm cable between the connection point and the spur. The fuse will protect thinner cable connected to the load side of the spur.

If it's a ring circuit (usually 32amps), I wouldn't suggest connecting a spur at all. You might be better off either calling in an electrician or fitting a plug to the light fitting's flex and a 3amp fuse. There's a risk of accidentally splitting rings which can be a serious fire hazard as they continue to function as normal, but they overload.

Also, while this may have nothing to do with the regs, I don't really like the idea of bringing non-RCD protected circuits i.e. lighting circuits into kitchen work surface areas that could be wet / the light fitting may be touched with wet hands.

The feed from the socket circuit will be RCD protected and thus a lot less prone to electrocuting people than a feed from the lighting circuit would be.

Bruthal

Solair wrote: »

If it's coming off a radial circuit, a fused, switched spur with a 3amp fuse fitted should suffice i.e. it's *exactly* the same level of protect that is afforded to a lamp plugged into a wall socket with a 3amp fuse in the plug.

Even off a ring main it will be ok once the spur is in as part of the ring

You should never connect any appliance directly to a socket circuit in Ireland without a fused-switched spur unit or a plug and socket.

Also, while this may have nothing to do with the regs, I don't really like the idea of bringing non-RCD protected circuits i.e. lighting circuits into kitchen work surface areas that could be wet / the light fitting may be touched with wet hands.

The feed from the socket circuit will be RCD protected and thus a lot less prone to electrocuting people than a feed from the lighting circuit would be.

Good points there, i agree with not always just solely depending on what regs say, as long as we are within them. Nothing wrong with going a step further like you suggest with the lights having the benefit of the RCD in such situations.

Solair

robbie7730 wrote: »

Even off a ring main it will be ok once the spur is in as part of the ring



Good points there, i agree with not always just solely depending on what regs say, as long as we are within them. Nothing wrong with going a step further like you suggest with the lights having the benefit of the RCD in such situations.

When wiring our place, I asked the electrician to run an independent lighting circuit to the bathrooms with its own independent neutral back to the board. They're connected to their own RCBO. I just felt more comfortable knowing that they weren't a shock hazard, even if that wasn't required at the time.

It wasn't very difficult or expensive to do either.

It covers the fan, lights and isolated shaver socket.

dolittle

get a battery operated light

Bill Electrical Aprentice

its ok guys i used a switched spur. seem the safer option