ACCA or Elevation Programme

Dellboy2007

I'm in my final year of an accountancy degree. My options appear to be:

• Find Employment and finish off remaining Exams
• Do ACCA course and do Professional Exams
• Do Elevation Programme and do these remaining exams

The problems with the first option are finding a job and doing all the exams while working. I know many on here probably have done this but I think I would prefer to take one (or two) years and just get all my exams.

My course gives me exemptions from most of the fundamental level (I should be exempt from all F papers but due to transferring from an old syllabus to a new it appears unlikely I will get them all). Worst case scenario I would think i'd have to do 2 F papers then the professionals. I've spoken with people who are doing ACCA professional exam courses in my college and it seems ridiculously hard. I know accountancy is not easy by any means but out of a class of around 40, only 2 passed both P1 and P6 (Advanced Tax). This has thrown me off going down this road, especially when I hear about the higher pass rates for ICAI (FAE's). I'd just like to point out that i'm not insinuating one would be easier.

Third option - Do the Elevation Programme. Problems here would be exemptions. Not fully sure which ones I would get. My course would normally offer all CAP I exemptions but because I farted around in my first 2 years i'm not sure would I get them all. I don't imagine i'd have any problem passing them though, likewise for CAP II. I'm currently doing Auditing, Tax 4 (CAP II level), SFMA, Corporate Reporting. So it would be of much the same level *I would imagine*. Let us just say for the sake of hypothesis that I have to do one or two CAP I exams in September, could I go ahead and do CAP II in October while my college stuff is still fresh in my head. Or do you have to be with the Elevation Programme for the year?

I would like to travel as well. I know Canada and Australia have agreements with the ICAI. If one did go ACCA, would they still be able to practice abroad.

Any advice or recommendations?

jessup

It would be great to get your professional exams out of the way before starting as a trainee and there are a few "old timers" in here (D&T) that have done that with ACCA. But, given the chance of a job you're unlikely to turn that down because you want to avoid the hassle (which it is!) of juggling work and exams. You’d be mad to turn down a position in order to get your exams out of the way but getting your exams out of the way might help you find a position.

You can only do your ACA exams while a trainee (or Elevation) so you can't get them out of the way first. That's part of the ACA system for firms to employ you on slave wages because you're only a "trainee". You'll hear some guff that being an ACA trainee is 'essential' because the practical experience helps in the exams. The advent of Elevation proved that's pure nonsense and even before Elevation those in Tax hadn't a clue about the Audit exams, those in Audit struggled with Tax exams and then those in Advisory and Consulting.....well God knows!

We have two depts (SME and ERS) that are mostly ACCA trainees and there's a suggestion to review the practice in other depts of only sponsoring trainees to do the M Acc. before they start their contract. This still leaves them with a full set of final exams to do (ACCA or ACA) during the training contract. The suggestion is to sponsor some trainees that have the maximum exemptions to do their ACCA exams before they start which removes the worry for a trainee (and the firm) about passing exams and also allows the trainee to be billable the max amount of time.

Some are saying offer it as an option while others are preaching heresy of making it the only option on the basis of cost benefit for the firm so watch this space :eek: Part of this could be posturing to frighten the Institute about fees and also give Smurfit et al a kick in the boll1x as there have been some 'issues' with those that are CAP 2 exempt at FAE level. However, part of it is a genuine proposal. No one would do an M Acc. or no firm would sponsor it only for the fact that it gives an extra set of exemptions for ACA but they still have to do the FAEs whereas someone with the same under grad exemptions could finish their ACCA exams in the same time as those doing the M Acc?

I feel I’ve done a Vicky Pollard on you there; “Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no”.

To summarise; If you get a training position then do what the tell you (most likely ACA) and if they pay for a M Acc. then more power to you. If you’re finding it tough to get a training position this year then finish the ACCA exams instead of a M Acc. A M Acc. might have “kudos” which is attractive to a firm but having all your exams done is equally, if not more attractive.

There's a lot of variables with regard to the rest of your post regarding pass rates etc. so I'll try and post something on that anon.

SBWife

Here are the ACCA pass rates for the different papers over the last few years. Personally I don't think they reflect the difficulty of the exams but rather that a significant portion of the candidates are under prepared.

P D07 J08 D08 J09 D09 J10 D10
F1 81 83 67 73 66* 64* 70*
F2 56 51 59 57 58* 54* 60*
F3 67 48 50 55 59* 60* 60*
F4 42 46 39 43 42 51 44
F5 34 28 30 41 52 57 41
F6 50 45 53 61 51 46 44
F7 40 33 42 30 39 28 47
F8 43 32 43 34 40 36 38
F9 40 42 40 42 37 43 40
P1 53 49 53 48 49 53 51
P2 48 48 54 44 58 47 51
P3 56 49 52 50 48 51 48
P4 31 36 36 30 41 34 33
P5 42 37 43 32 42 44 35
P6 28 36 41 37 39 35 44
P7 33 33 39 37 39 32 34

Dellboy2007

I don't think the people I have been talking to, who are currently doing the ACCA professional course *full-time*, were under prepared. Like I mentioned only 2 out of 40 passed both P1 + P6. Something clearly not right there. The people doing the course would be of a smarter caliber then most. I can't imagine how people who are working manage to pass the ACCA exams, then again I suppose the full-time students are doing more exams.

I'd be interested to hear back from anyone who has done the Elevation Programme.

smcgiff

SBWife wrote: »

Personally I don't think they reflect the difficulty of the exams but rather that a significant portion of the candidates are under prepared.

Yeah that's it - perhaps if they'd brought a calculator with them :rolleyes:

SBWife

smcgiff wrote: »

Yeah that's it - perhaps if they'd brought a calculator with them :rolleyes:

No need to be factitious. IMO the ACCA exams are time pressured but straightforward. The low pass rate reflects the fact that many people take them without putting in the study required or without having an appropriate academic background.

For example the number of people who go into ACCA exams without reading the previous diet's examiner reports is crazy.

Dellboy2007

SBWife wrote: »

The low pass rate reflects the fact that many people take them without putting in the study required or without having an appropriate academic background.

Have to disagree with you. I know people who were devastated when they failed their ACCA finals because they had put in so much work. They also had an appropriate background (1.1 Honours Degree in Accountancy relevant?).

Regardless, arguing over which is harder is futile at best.

smcgiff

SBWife wrote: »

No need to be factitious. IMO the ACCA exams are time pressured but straightforward. The low pass rate reflects the fact that many people take them without putting in the study required or without having an appropriate academic background.

Love this old chestnut - So, how come there are such high failure rates at the final stages, even though they have passed all the previous ACCA exams. Next you'll be saying UNI exams are harder :D

SBWife wrote: »

For example the number of people who go into ACCA exams without reading the previous diet's examiner reports is crazy.

Are you omnipotent?

jessup

Hi Dellboy. The ACCA pass rates versus ACA pass rates are always a bit of a talking point.

I have a partial training role at work so know a little (not a lot) about this. Those ACCA pass rates you've mentioned are off the charts. There must be a scéal there. I know you say they had 1.1 honours degrees and failing a tax paper is always forgiveable but failing an easy theory paper like P1 is incredible for someone with a 1.1 honours degree in Accounting! Your friends can't have gone to an approved ACCA college? A college wouldn't get approval with those rates or would have if removed if it had it in the first place. Our ACCA trainees have nearly a 100% pass rate.

There is a 'higher' pass rate for ACA v ACCA and in my opinion here are some reasons. It's NOT the case that one set is easier or harder than the other.

Firstly, the Institute are not unknown for "spinning" pass rates. A pass rate of 85% at FAE does not mean 85% of students pass their FAEs. It could mean that 85% of students passed one exam or maybe the Core at FAE. ACCA release their stats subject by subject.

Secondly, ACCA don't release national pass rates except for local variants; Audit, Tax etc. The Irish and UK pass rates would be significantly higher than the international average for a myriad of reasons that cannot be articulated in a PC world. If you could get the Irish pass rate for starters and then break down that further by concentrating on the "Irish" or native english speakers then that would be very interesting. The likes of "Rich Boy Barret" would go mental about racial profiling but you could see how international students would find some of the theory stuff more difficult. There's far more international non native english speakers doing ACCA rather than ACA.

Thirdly, there is the "screening" of those doing ACA which influences the pass rate. At its zenith the Big 4 were recruiting circa 700 ACA trainees alone when 1000+ were doing the FAEs. That 700 went through a rigorous process to get into the Big 4 and then are immersed in a culture where failing exams is a black mark. Contrast that to ACCA exams where you have a more eclectic mix with many that are the sub honours graduates from the IT's, DBS, GCD, NCI etc. but then struggle big time afterwards.

Lastly, the ACA don't tell you the number of repeats. Let's say 850/1000 pass the FAE (which is pure spin). Well 150 of that 850 could be repeats. You could say the same about ACCA exams too but they have tons of 'inactive' students where people have a crack at ACCA exams only to find that they've over estimated their ability (back to the points above) and give up when they get a reality check. Those doing ACA have to jump through a few more hoops to get on the magic carpet in the first place and are also more likely to see it through to the bitter end.

SBWife

smcgiff wrote: »

Love this old chestnut - So, how come there are such high failure rates at the final stages, even though they have passed all the previous ACCA exams. Next you'll be saying UNI exams are harder :D

Because many have not taken the earlier exams. They've received exemptions by way of taking accounting degrees from colleges of varying standards.

And some UNI exams are harder. I certainly took more difficult exams as an undergraduate.

smcgiff wrote: »

Are you omnipotent?

Basic logic dictates this isn't necessary.

ACCA publish 4-6 page reports by the examiner following every exam. These detail the type of answers which scored maximum points and the mistakes that were made by those who did poorly. This is very valuable information for any candidate, and I'd postulate that the prudent man would consider it crazy for a candidate not to have read this information.

Therefore if one candidate did not read this information prior to sitting the exam it would be in fact a crazy number.

I know of three individuals who sat F9 in December who hadn't read the examiners' report.

So yes, the number of people who go into ACCA exams without reading the previous diet's examiner reports is crazy.

smcgiff

SBWife wrote: »

Because many have not taken the earlier exams. They've received exemptions by way of taking accounting degrees from colleges of varying standards.

And some UNI exams are harder. I certainly took more difficult exams as an undergraduate.

Do tell - what undergraduate exams did you take that were harder than ACCA exams that nobody else seems to have taken (going by the logic of the two points above).

SBWife wrote: »

Basic logic dictates this isn't necessary.

ACCA publish 4-6 page reports by the examiner following every exam. These detail the type of answers which scored maximum points and the mistakes that were made by those who did poorly. This is very valuable information for any candidate, and I'd postulate that the prudent man would consider it crazy for a candidate not to have read this information.

Therefore if one candidate did not read this information prior to sitting the exam it would be in fact a crazy number.

I know of three individuals who sat F9 in December who hadn't read the examiners' report.

So yes, the number of people who go into ACCA exams without reading the previous diet's examiner reports is crazy.

The only thing that can be drawn from the above is that you think you have 3 crazy acquaintances.

You found the ACCA exams easy and this may because such exams are suited to you - I don't think you or any single person's experiences are likely to be a barometer of how difficult ACCA exams are. I suspect you're very much in a miniority.

SBWife

SMcGiff I think you'd find a basic logic class or book really very interesting.

jessup

@smcgiff and @sbwife you're both raising some valid points for ACCA and ACA. I'd say you'd make a lovely couple although you would argue a lot!

-Students not putting in the effort. Poor attendance and leaving it all to the last minute. Don't know about ACCA but with ACA it's such a problem with people signing in for friends they've brought in strict controls and CA.
-Students that are trying to do it themselves. Seriously @sbwife what kind of lecturer would not tell students to read the examiners reports?
-Students with questionable exemptions. @sbwife is right. Not all level 8 degrees are equal even though they might get the same exemptions. It's a sensitive area but it's the truth. BTW that includes the Smurfit M Acc which has serious delusions of grandeur until you face the FAEs having avoided CAP 2.
-Students that are badly advised or under estimate the challenge. I really don't like some posters coming on other parts of the Accountancy thread giving it loads about how easy the exams and that you easily do them on your own or you can rely on cramming. Those people are the exception not the rule. Unfortunately, someone looking for a short cut and looking for what they want to hear will take those sort of posts as gospel only for it all to end in tears. I agree with @sbwife that some exams are at the same level as Uni but it depends on what you did in Uni and where you did it. But I also agree with @smcgiff that it depends on the level of exam. For most people the FAEs and ACCA P's are a step up from Uni. EG many qualified AITI's fail ACCA P6 Tax! Anyone who passes a closed book Tax exam like that deserves a medal!

SBWife

jessup wrote: »

Seriously @sbwife what kind of lecturer would not tell students to read the examiners reports?

Isn't the real question what kind of student wouldn't read the report after being advised of it. I and anyone who's had any lecturing or teaching experience will tell you that there's a huge divide between what the lecturer asks for and what the student does.

Just to clarify in my initial comment I suggested that the pass rates (mostly in the 40% range) do not reflect the difficulty of the exams but also the lack of preparation among many candidates. This was never meant to suggest that if candidates were prepared or had a better background the pass rates would be close to 100%. I believe that if all candidates were well prepared either through self study or classroom based courses the pass rates would be closer to 60-70%.

Dellboy2007

jessup wrote: »

Those ACCA pass rates you've mentioned are off the charts. There must be a scéal there. I know you say they had 1.1 honours degrees and failing a tax paper is always forgiveable but failing an easy theory paper like P1 is incredible for someone with a 1.1 honours degree in Accounting! Your friends can't have gone to an approved ACCA college?

The pass rates were 2 out of (about) 40 for both subjects. So a lot of people would have passed P1 but didn't pass the Tax. I assure you the college is ACCA approved. The full-time course being offered by the college is even advertised by the ACCA and has lecturers who lecturer in both ACA and ACCA. But I do agree with you, there has to be some other scéal there... I'm yet to hear what it is so that's why I have started investigating the ACA elevation Programme. Do you know much about it? Do you know is it possible to start it as soon as I finish college in May and try and do CAP II exams in October (provided I get all CAP I of course)? Or is the Autumn sitting only for repeat sittings?

jessup

I'm afraid I've some bad news for you @dellboy99 regarding Elevation. As I understand it you're not eligible for Elevation. This is what the document says "To be eligible to enrol on this route you will have worked in any sector for at least four years prior to joining the Chartered Accountants Ireland as a student". Having said that the Institute would rather die that refuse (more) money so maybe you can cite part time work that you did during college as "four years work in any sector"?

Elevation is a cyncial attempt by the Institute to eat into some of the ACCA market. I don't know much about Elevation but anything I have heard is not great, sorry. ACAs can be awful snobs. "Where did you train?"....."What do you mean you didn't train in a firm......oh my God". For future employment (incl. industry) it might be ok to have trained in a small firm but to not have trained in a firm at all............?

The only reason that so many people do ACA straight out of college is the trainee "contract/job" (not Elevation) because the "ACA Firms" are well organisied with regard to trainee positions. If all the trainees that were forced to do ACA were given a choice to do ACCA then you would see some change IMO. That's why Elevation is being targetted at those who already have a job. They must be a rare breed because I've yet to meet someone doing it and must admit I can't understand why someone in a job already would pick ACA over ACCA.

The way that ACA tuition is delivered suits many that have a trainee "job" in a practice who are away on assignment a lot and can only attend classes at the weekend or block release and have to cram an entire years study into eight weeks. However, if you're someone who has a job where you're based in the same location/office all the time and can manage your time to attend weekly evening lectures then ACCA is much more "student friendly" IMO.

Regarding the pass rates;

There was a thread on here a while back dedicated to ACCA P6. There were some serious problems with it where I think a new examiner had been setting papers that were super hard and completely OTT considering that it's closed book. The equivalent exam for ACA or AITI is open book. Our gang all do P7 (Advanced Audit) but many avoid Advanced Tax to do Advanced Performance Management or Advanced Financial Management. You don't have to do Advanced Tax.


In relation to your OP about Recognition;

Don't know much about recognition as for our crowd it's the firm that they're leveraging on the CV in Oz and Canada not really the qualification. You'd have to imagine that the "Commonwealth" angle with ACCA being UK based would mean that it's well recognised in Oz, Canada, NZ, SA etc.?

The CCAinsider

Fail ACA often enough and you get timed out and kicked out, fail ACCA and you get to try again as often as you want. The lower pass rate is because people sign up for 3-4 ACCA exams and drop 1 or 2 half way through the term, but still sit the exam – just in case they get lucky. Also ACCA is open on entry, so more people attempt it, including a lot of people with English as a second language. The pass rate is always going to be lower.

I spoke to a lecturer in P7 recently, apparently some of his students though it was OK to go surfing for a week during term and still pass – it was not. Any professional exams are a huge step up from uni. exams. Final level professional exams are really as hard as exams get.