Fine Gael and Labour Reach Agreement

Mickjg

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0306/politics.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12658141

Gilmore will present the plan for the coalition to a special party conference later today. No announcement has been made with regard to cabinet composition, although we should find out fairly soon.

Min

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

professore

Min wrote: »

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

They have no choice unless they tell the EU/IMF to stick it in which case things will probably be worse. I'm watching what they are going to do with the banks with great interest.

ilovesleep

Min wrote: »

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

This would be no surprise. Lenihan left a few billion to throw at the banks. In which the new government have very little choice in the matter. Their choices are 1) withhold the money, not accept the bailout package and default. Or 2) accept the bailout package, throw money at the banks and not default (yet).

Dont you ever forget how toxic FiannaFail are.

dan_d

Min wrote: »

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

Common sense should tell people that they've no other choice.

Mind you common sense seems to be a rare commodity these days....

They've got no room to manoeuvre at all, let's face it.All the election promises in the world weren't going to change that. They may be able to change a few small things and that's it, there's very little else they can do.

Just wait for the attack from the media to start....:rolleyes:

sollar

Min wrote: »

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

You can watch the sunday independent to get to work straight away to tear this government down.

Firefox11

Common sense should tell people that they've no other choice.

Yes but it is astonishing to see how many people who voted for FG/Labour were under the delusion that there was going to be big policy changes or budget changes from the previous government.

For example alot of people were led to believe that the USC Charge was going to be removed.

liammur

Min wrote: »

According to the Sunday Independent, the plan for government will not be popular with the public as they continue on where the previous government left off.

The public need a few more hits, we need to be taught a severe lesson, that we won't forget too quickly.

JBnaglfar

It seems Noonan will be in the Finance position: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/noonan-to-take-on-finance-ministry--reports-496147.html

Labour to get six ministries, and Joan Burton leading public sector reform.

Sierra Oscar

According to Labour there will be no social welfare cuts or the like, so that just indicates how watered down things have had to get for FG.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

simonj

professore wrote: »

They have no choice unless they tell the EU/IMF to stick it in which case things will probably be worse. I'm watching what they are going to do with the banks with great interest.

Of course they have a choice, but then so did we.
But my faith in democracy is fading in Ireland, Lisbon II was a good example on how we increasingly have only the illusion of choice.
FF and FG, two cheeks of the one arse, dynastic with little or no vision and Labour picking up the crumbs from the FG table

The bailout of speculators at cost to the tax payer, the renegotiation of that was an FG plank, but they seem already to be breaking that promise, and Labour should really be careful about a coalition deal

Biggins

http://www.thejournal.ie/details-emerge-of-fine-gael-and-labours-programme-for-government-2011-03/#

DETAILS OF THE programme for government agreed by Fine Gael and Labour are beginning to emerge.
Speaking on RTE Radio this afternoon Fine Gael’s Phil Hogan and Labour’s Brendan Howlin outlined some of the aspects of the deal.
They include:

The Department of Finance will be split into two ministries with one focusing on fiscal planning and the banking sector. The other will focus on public sector reform. Fine Gael is expected to take the former, Labour the latter.

There will be an Economic Council set up which will be established to ensure an equal decision making process between two parties and to determine economic policy.

There is an agreement to reduce the deficit to 3 per cent by 2015 in line with the parameters set down by the EU/IMF bailout.

The first two years of the four year plan set out by the outgoing government to reduce the deficit will be adhered to.

There is a commitment to not increasing income tax.

There is also a commitment to not decrease social welfare.

There is a plan to reduce the number of public sector workers by between 18,000 and 21,000 by 2014 and a further 5,00o thereafter.

There are no plans to change child benefit.

Funding for third level education will be examined and a funding mechanism that will not deter access will be found.

Speaking on RTE Radio this lunchtime, Fine Gael’s Phil Hogan said the the new government was going “to hit the ground running” to get “confidence going again in the economy”.
Labour’s Brendan Howlin also told RTE that while renegotiating of the EU/IMF deal was needed the new government need to “repair broken bridges across our EU partners.”

Discussions on cabinet jobs will be concluded by tomorrow by party leaders.

Labour’s special delegate conference is meeting this afternoon to vote on the deal. A result is expected by 5pm. Fine Gael’s parliamentary party is also meeting this afternoon

As I commented on the site: According to the Independent FG and Labour are to ditch pledges on economy – http://goo.gl/C1LN0 – THIS is why we need NEW political parties! Not same old crap parties who say one thing and do another!

steelcityblues

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

In other words - lets be servile, unquestioning, obedient little sheep to our establishment politicians, who can be guaranteed to have our nation's best interest at hearts.

That's just the spirit for a 21st century Ireland. :rolleyes:

Biggins

steelcityblues wrote: »

In other words - lets be servile, unquestioning, obedient little sheep to our establishment politicians, who can be guaranteed to have our nation's best interest at hearts.

Yep, another clone of a Fianna Fail voter.

zootroid

steelcityblues wrote: »

In other words - lets be servile, unquestioning, obedient little sheep to our establishment politicians, who can be guaranteed to have our nation's best interest at hearts.

That's just the spirit for a 21st century Ireland. :rolleyes:

What do you propose?

steelcityblues

zootroid wrote: »

What do you propose?

Only, that more people see through the BS of the major parties, especially on the economic question.

Well, a majority saw through at least one this time around, but otherwise not good enough.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Chucky the tree

steelcityblues wrote: »

Only, that more people see through the BS of the major parties, especially on the economic question.

Well, a majority saw through at least one this time around, but otherwise not good enough.

The problem is the general public and not the political parties. The public are far too thick to understand politics/economics. They have no interest in doing research and will just listen to what the parties/media tell them. While wanting a party who are honest is all well and good it's a non-runner because no party who was honest would ever be elected.

Biggins

Shane Ross: The deal has been stitched up. The boys will have jobs and old politics will be restored
Both Labour and Fine Gael will happily forget their election promises to share the spoils of power, writes Shane Ross

WAGS in Leinster House were at their cynical worst on Friday. "The deal has been stitched up for days," volunteered one senator.

"Big Phil Hogan, Pat Rabbitte, Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin have been playing bridge for three nights in a row to relieve the boredom," responded an Independent TD.

Of course the negotiators felt compelled to paint a fraught atmosphere at the ultra-smooth Fine Gael/ Labour talks. Word kept leaking about the "difficulties". The tangible harmony inside the Sycamore Room in Government Buildings could cause unease among party foot soldiers. The faithful, watching from the sidelines, expected skin and hair to be flying by now as the two teams traded long treasured principles.

Not this hardened bunch. They threw them out the window into Merrion Street on day one.

Well-placed whispers to the media revealed a few titbits. The Irish Times obligingly helped to convey an atmosphere of conflict with Friday's strap line that "Tensions over the Finance post threatened to derail process".

No one really doubted that Fine Gael's Michael Noonan would win the plumb portfolio, but as there was never the remotest danger of the horse-trading breaking down on matters of policy, a row over the cabinet posts was the only good yarn.

So certain were the two party leaders of a happy conclusion that they coolly left the country for fringe meetings in Europe. Enda Kenny headed for Helsinki in the hope of another photo op with Angela Merkel, while Eamon Gilmore took a flight to Athens to mingle with his dull Greek socialist friends. Enda was due back yesterday afternoon to rubber-stamp the deal. Eamon will ram it through a party conference, probably tomorrow.

These guys fell into each others arms months ago. Any observer of the camaraderie in Leinster House over the years knows that their 14 years in the political wilderness of opposition have united them in one common mission: power. To hell with policy, it is time to divide the spoils.

Spoils first, policy later.

As a newly elected Independent TD, I have not been hanging around the telephone in expectation of a call from Enda or one of his minions. There is little doubt that he could cobble together a deal with the necessary seven Independents if he was so minded. But he is not. He will wed the Labour Party. Some believe it is a little strange that he has not made a few calls to Independents simply to put pressure on Labour. It might put the fear of God into them. On past history one or two independents could be picked off with constituency cuddling, while others among us could talk turkey if Enda was prepared to concede radical policy shifts and to embrace the new politics.

Enda and Eamon do not do "radical". It could mean Enda standing up to Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. It could mean a referendum on the EU deal. It could mean stinging the bondholders or, as Enda prefers to call it, "burden sharing".

On Friday, it was apparent that Fine Gael had thrown in the towel on "burden sharing". On RTE's nine o'clock news, Enda -- speaking from Helsinki -- was openly acknowledging the resistance from fellow right-wing parties in Europe to his recent election claims that the EU/ IMF deal could be changed. His European Peoples' Party friends had despatched him with a flea in his ear. So, instead, he held out the lame prospect of an interest rate cut to ease our repayments.

He was rebuffed. On the same bulletin his one-time friend, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, made almost bellicose noises, insisting that countries seeking aid must give something in return. Angela was launching a veiled attack on Ireland's 12.5 per cent corporate tax rate.

Enda is in no mood for challenging Angela. Nor is Eamon, by all accounts. They want to butter up, not to irritate, their respective colleagues in Europe.

Neither man has looked at the "independent" option. They have eyes only for each other. Which may seem a little odd, considering that Enda allies himself with the right in Europe while Eamon mixes it with the socialists.

The coalition deal will be a monumental fudge. It will not fool anyone but it will be signed, sealed and delivered by noon on Wednesday.

Last week, when I was being "inducted" as a new TD, I spoke to several Fine Gael and Labour backbenchers. One Labour newcomer told me that he was unsure whether he would vote for the programme for government. A Fine Gael TD was adamant that Enda could -- and should -- be talking to the 19 Independents before he stitched up a deal with Eamon and his lefties.

Sadly this deal is being struck deep in the two leaders' comfort zone. The older civil war politicians of Fine Gael and the stale socialists of Labour are too timid to embrace the real change championed by some in the independent group. Fine Gael will prefer to prop up the Croke Park Agreement to confronting the friends of Labour in the trades unions. They will happily surrender on the 2014 target date for reducing the budget deficit. They will succumb to a Labour Party demand for another layer of taxation. They may even agree to a property tax. Their promises to cut 145 quangos might have to be shelved to protect Labour sensitivities.

Never mind, Michael Noonan will land the Finance prize. Joan Burton will be given the pick of the other ministries. Big Phil will take Enterprise and Employment before sailing off as European Commissioner when Maire Geogheghan-Quinn retires. Pat Rabbitte is set for Justice. Richard Bruton can suffer a bit of purgatory in Education, while Brian Hayes may be punished for earlier sins of sedition by forcing him to take Health.

Job allocations will be the only disputed decisions while policies take a back seat, dictated elsewhere, but rubber-stamped during breaks in the game of bridge.

Policy was well taken care of by both parties with their 'Get out of Jail' card printed a few years ago. Fine Gael and Labour negotiators looked at the nation's books last week and ran from the Sycamore Room kicking and screaming to the media that the figures were "worse than they thought".

Manifestos are on the back burner. Promises are postponed. The boys will have jobs. Old politics will be restored

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-the-deal-has-been-stitched-up-the-boys-will-have-jobs-and-old-politics-will-be-restored-2567760.html

I have to agree with him.
Its more of the same sicking tired old politics that the public does not want.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

As I commented on the site: According to the Independent FG and Labour are to ditch pledges on economy – http://goo.gl/C1LN0 – THIS is why we need NEW political parties! Not same old crap parties who say one thing and do another!

No.
It's a reason to vote for the party thats likely to get an overall majority rather than vote for the one thats not and have a coalition.
FG just needed what 4 or 5 more percent of first preferences.

The people voted for this fudge and thats what they got.
If they are complaining about the fudge they can look to themselves.

It's not a bad compromise mind you looking at it.
They better do most of what they say they will though.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

I have to agree with him.
Its more of the same sicking tired old politics that the public does not want.

The public fceckin voted for it,so they must have wanted it.

They had a choice,they could have voted in majority for labours plan but didn't,and the extra 4 or 5 percent of them needed to give FG a full throttle decided to vote fudge.

As for Shane Ross,paper never refuses ink.
He's criticising already and so he should but and it's a big but,people had a choice and they took it.

This is the problem when you ask a committee of 4.5 million selfish people to decide this.

Biggins

Deleted User wrote: »

...This is the problem when you ask a committee of 4.5 million selfish people to decide this.

True, true...

If people are in a desert dying of thrust and hunger, they might try and drink sand for a solution!

Colm R

Me thinks Shane Ross is a little pissed that he was not asked.

He could have been brought in if Fine Gael got above the 80 seat mark. But even then, the government would not have been stable enough - this article prooves that he may have been a loose cannon and not added to the stability.

Also, you have to remember that he wrote the article before Fine Gael and Labour published anything. But people are reading his article now, assuming he is analyzing the published document.

In either case, the SINDO has clearly laid down the marker that it is going to be against this government! This is going to be tough for this government as Irelands leading Sunday newspaper.

Biggins

Colm R wrote: »

Me thinks Shane Ross is a little pissed that he was not asked.

He could have been brought in if Fine Gael got above the 80 seat mark. But even then, the government would not have been stable enough - this article proves that he may have been a loose cannon and not added to the stability.

Also, you have to remember that he wrote the article before Fine Gael and Labour published anything. But people are reading his article now, assuming he is analyzing the published document.

In either case, the SINDO has clearly laid down the marker that it is going to be against this government! This is going to be tough for this government as Irelands leading Sunday newspaper.

One of the points (that I think you missed) is that FG didn't even bother to contact the independents - they just left them out completely. If this is true, it indicates two things.
1. That FG already was in the mindset of a coalition with Labour from the get go.
2. That they couldn't not even for once, think outside the box of political thinking and methodology. Back to the same old tricks or ways.

You say "he wrote the article before Fine Gael and Labour published anything" - yet he wrote it after or during the time in which it took to put together their coalition document, which in itself just didn't marvelously appear in thought out and printed form just in the flash of seconds!
(You know for sure he wrote it before? Please say how you know this!)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Colm R

Biggins wrote: »

1. That FG already was in the mindset of a coalition with Labour from the get go.

Possibly.

Biggins wrote: »

2. That they couldn't not even for once, think outside the box of political thinking and methodology. Back to the same old tricks or ways.

Its a matter of opinion. In my opinion, the people have voted for FG-Labour coalition. If they could not agree a deal, perhaps FG would turn to the independents.

Biggins wrote: »

You say "he wrote the article before Fine Gael and Labour published anything" - yet he wrote it after or during the time in which it took to put together their coalition document, which in itself just didn't marvelously appear in thought out and printed form just in the flash of seconds!
(You know for sure he wrote it before? Please say how you know this!)

One would assume the document was being worked on since the election finished (possibly before if your argument is correct), but did not go public until Sunday. Shane Ross' article appeared in the Sunday Indendent. The latest he could have written it would have been late Saturday night.

If Shane Ross wrote the article after analysing the document, then I'd say fair enough. But I can't see how he would have seen it, and now people are reading his article as an analysis of the joint programme for government.


I'm not against the media being critical of government. I'm not against criticism of government policy. But in my opionion, it looks like the SINDO have decided their policy with this government (which does not exist yet) and are going to be only critical of them. Because the SINDO is Ireland's biggest paper, this does worry me.

Not because I'm delighted Fine Gael have done so well. Not because there is a coalition with Labour. But because I want a government that will sit for 5 years and hopefully be stable. The SINDO on the hand just wants to sell newspapers.

jmayo

Min wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ahh looking for the bright side for ff, are you ?

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Personally I am at a few of those stages at the one time and have been for over 3 years.

Anger and blame
I am angry that over two years on from the meltdown beginning, nobody has been brought to book for the mess.
Yet the longest major case in the US was 24 months before someone was found guilty/innocent.
24 months and seanie fitz hasn't even been brought to any sort of trial. :rolleyes:

Check yesterdays SBP for examples of how slow our justice system is in comparison to US.
41 months later michael lynn is still wandering around Europe and not found guilty of fraud and theft. :rolleyes:
Why does it take so f***ing long in this banana republic ?

Bargaining and hope
I do hope becuase if you don't then what is there.
Besides my other half refuses to leave this sh**hole so I have to hope.
My first hope was that a right facing government was elected to clean up the mess and to bring some fiscal conservatism to our outlandish public spending.
Well there goes that one.

Apathy or futility
I have always had some apathy that we could never sort ourselves out.
That was copperfastened during the election when so many people decided they would vote for the fairytale parties/candidates.

FFS how thick does one have to be to actually believe that a government can tell the only ones willing to lend to us to f off, reverse all the existing spending cuts/tax increases and somehow still fund the 20 billion overspend in the public finances ?
What percent of the electorate voted for SF, ULA, PBP or whatever other numpty was espousing this garbage economic philosophy ?

On a realism scale this philosophy ranks at zero.

And people say we have a smart workforce and that we have a great education system. :rolleyes:

Acceptance
I have accepted for a long time that we will default, unless somehow we managed to get out from under the banking debts.
There is no way this little economy could support that level of debts.
Anglo the world biggest corporate loss maker is tied to the Irish people.
Sweet Jesus what possessed people to decide such a course of action ? :mad:

I also believe that the Euro is doomed and was doomed from the start.
There is no way that the debt cycle can be maintained and there is no way that all the PIIGS can stay afloat.
When one goes it will probably lead to domino affect and ultimately the Germans, the French, the Dutch and indeed the Brits will feel the heat.

Merkel is playing politics trying to shore up her party's votes and refusing to renegogiate.
After their elections and her party's loses expect her to be gone.
Then the question will be what her sucesssor does and do they accept that we and the other countries just cannot support the debts to their banks ?

niallers1

If Labour are in charge of reforming the Public sector does this mean that we should stop fooling ourselves and come out an say that the public sector will not be reformed.

What will labour actually be doing if we know that they will be doing nothing to reform the public sector.

Lets at least save paying that salary...

Biggins

Colm R wrote: »

...I'm not against the media being critical of government. I'm not against criticism of government policy. But in my opionion, it looks like the SINDO have decided their policy with this government (which does not exist yet) and are going to be only critical of them. Because the SINDO is Ireland's biggest paper, this does worry me.

Not because I'm delighted Fine Gael have done so well. Not because there is a coalition with Labour. But because I want a government that will sit for 5 years and hopefully be stable. The SINDO on the hand just wants to sell newspapers.

The Sindo is what the Sindo always has been. A pain in the arse sometimes and anyone with half a brain does see that - and the rest.

Shane Ross however is just using the paper as a channel to covey his thoughts I suspect.
He's shown he can stand on his own two feet and if anyone has read his previous books about the shower sits in the Dail and their activities, will know that he's vastly in touch about whats going on, with whom and the reasons why.
He might be wrong in his conclusions - not saying myself that he is or isn't - but he's clearly more knowledgeable in this area and he's working probably on a lot more facts than he can actually write about due to liability laws alone.
I'm not espousing that he's all knowing, just better probably versed in such matters.

As for the Sindo, we all know with how much pinch of salt to take that paper with!

Chucky the tree

Biggins wrote: »

I have to agree with him.
Its more of the same sicking tired old politics that the public does not want.

So the public would be happier with Lowry and Healy-Rae in Government again? I think FG would have been critised no matter what way they went.

Spudmonkey

Biggins wrote: »

2. That they couldn't not even for once, think outside the box of political thinking and methodology. Back to the same old tricks or ways.

What are you talking about? Same old tricks?

Tell me please how stable you think a government composed of 7+ independents who included the likes of RBB would be. Not very stable at all I'd imagine.

If thats what you think they should just have equally looked at forming a deal with SF.

Biggins

Spudmonkey wrote: »

What are you talking about? Same old tricks?

Tell me please how stable you think a government composed of 7+ independents who included the likes of RBB would be. Not very stable at all I'd imagine.

If thats what you think they should just have equally looked at forming a deal with SF.

You missed the point. Thinking in another direction.

Same old tricks of cronyism and jobs for the boys first before putting the country first. For example the old of the labour party like Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Brendan Howlin, Joan Burton, and Roisin Shortall and (others) who are now in line for government office positions.
They know that this is the last time that they will have, to gain any position within any government.
(Understandably they don't always want it to be on record that they were never good enough to get themselves elected to a position of government office)
So the aforementioned above now finally in their last years, get into power by the backdoor, by compromise and reportedly much to the anger of the younger side of the Labour movement who will be raising the issue at the next delegate conference. Among these will be the likes of Tommy Broghan (and he's very much not on his own) who hatred for all things Fine Gael is well, well, known.

So its been said that the elders of the party wanted to see themselves finally rewarded with government office and if that meant sacrificing a few of their principles, the wishes of they younger newly elected TD's and a lot of their ground support - well they got their way!

...And thats the same type of attitude that our previous masters had. One of person first, country second.

Its that type of thinking I was alluding to that is the all too familiar to us, the old ways of doing things.
Not about talking to independents or groups, about seeking self reward first and willing not to remain true to your core principles - and thats only to begin with.

jmayo

niallers1 wrote: »

If Labour are in charge of reforming the Public sector does this mean that we should stop fooling ourselves and come out an say that the public sector will not be reformed.

What will labour actually be doing if we know that they will be doing nothing to reform the public sector.

Lets at least save paying that salary...

Expect a few committees to be formed to look into the matter.
Of course expect a few union chiefs to be appointed to said committees.
Oh and they will report cicra 2014.

Asking Labour to run a reform of public sector is akin to asking fr brendan smith to run a childcare program.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So the public would be happier with Lowry and Healy-Rae in Government again? I think FG would have been critised no matter what way they went.

True they would get hammered for getting suppprt off those two.
Funny thing is they might be the two easiest to please. :rolleyes:

Weird thing is and I really hate to say it, the best for this country economically in absense of FG overall majority would be for them to get ff support.
But of course ff can't be trusted as far as one would throw mary harney. :rolleyes:
Would be interesting to see mehole martin put his money where his mouth is.

The only independents that would probably be pro major FG reforms of pulic spending would be Ross and Donnelly.
Then you would have to buy off lowry, healy-rae, grealish.

Then you have to really find 3 more.
There is Mick Wallace and Luke Flanagan ?
Could the ex ffers fleming and mcgrath be trusted ?
What about Dubs mcgrath and o'sullivan or pringle, could one ever see them agree to welfare cuts ?

You can forget ULA, PBP, and the other fruit loops.

jmayo

Biggins wrote: »

You missed the point. Thinking in another direction.

Same old tricks of cronyism and jobs for the boys first before putting the country first. For example the old of the labour party like Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Brendan Howlin, Joan Burton, and Roisin Shortall and (others) who are now in line for government office positions.
They know that this is the last time that they will have, to gain any position within any government.
(Understandably they don't always want it to be on record that they were never good enough to get themselves elected to a position of government office)
So the aforementioned above now finally in their last years, get into power by the backdoor, by compromise and reportedly much to the anger of the younger side of the Labour movement who will be raising the issue at the next delegate conference. Among these will be the likes of Tommy Broghan (and he's very much not on his own) who hatred for all things Fine Gael is well, well, known.

So its been said that the elders of the party wanted to see themselves finally rewarded with government office and if that meant sacrificing a few of their principles, the wishes of they younger newly elected TD's and a lot of their ground support - well they got their way!

...And thats the same type of attitude that our previous masters had. One of person first, country second.

Its that type of thinking I was alluding to that is the all too familiar to us, the old ways of doing things.
Not about talking to independents or groups, about seeking self reward first and willing not to remain true to your core principles - and thats only to begin with.

You would swear that FG aren't compromising at all reading your post ?
This is a two way street and no f***ing way should Labour get to dictate everything.

To my mind FG are compromising way too much and I can a possible fall back plan if Labour get cold feet and particularly if they don't stand up to their buddies in public sector dominated unions.

Biggins

jmayo wrote: »

You would swear that FG aren't compromising at all reading your post ?
This is a two way street and no f***ing way should Labour get to dictate everything.

To my mind FG are compromising way too much and I can a possible fall back plan if Labour get cold feet and particularly if they don't stand up to their buddies in public sector dominated unions.

O' I agree 100%.
It seems some things for the moment are not destined to change.
Only this time around, the top party has a bit more leeway and alternative options, if push comes to shove.

BlaasForRafa

Biggins wrote: »

You missed the point. Thinking in another direction.

Same old tricks of cronyism and jobs for the boys first before putting the country first. For example the old of the labour party like Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Brendan Howlin, Joan Burton, and Roisin Shortall and (others) who are now in line for government office positions.

Yes, of course....they should have given these posts ot less capable and experienced peoplem, that would solve everything :rolleyes:

Biggins

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yes, of course....they should have given these posts ot less capable and experienced peoplem, that would solve everything :rolleyes:

You've clearly missed the point - for the sake of argument or trying to be clever.

Spudmonkey

Biggins wrote: »

You missed the point. Thinking in another direction.

Same old tricks of cronyism and jobs for the boys first before putting the country first. For example the old of the labour party like Pat Rabbitte, Ruairi Quinn, Brendan Howlin, Joan Burton, and Roisin Shortall and (others) who are now in line for government office positions.
They know that this is the last time that they will have, to gain any position within any government.
(Understandably they don't always want it to be on record that they were never good enough to get themselves elected to a position of government office)
So the aforementioned above now finally in their last years, get into power by the backdoor, by compromise and reportedly much to the anger of the younger side of the Labour movement who will be raising the issue at the next delegate conference. Among these will be the likes of Tommy Broghan (and he's very much not on his own) who hatred for all things Fine Gael is well, well, known.

So its been said that the elders of the party wanted to see themselves finally rewarded with government office and if that meant sacrificing a few of their principles, the wishes of they younger newly elected TD's and a lot of their ground support - well they got their way!

...And thats the same type of attitude that our previous masters had. One of person first, country second.

Its that type of thinking I was alluding to that is the all too familiar to us, the old ways of doing things.
Not about talking to independents or groups, about seeking self reward first and willing not to remain true to your core principles - and thats only to begin with.

Eh no I don't think I missed the point. Basically you deem the fact that Labour and FG forming a coalition as being a return to the same old tricks and not thinking outside the box even though barring FG forming a coalition with FF it is probably the most stable government you are likely to get.

Biggins

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Eh no I don't think I missed the point. Basically you deem the fact that Labour and FG forming a coalition as being a return to the same old tricks and not thinking outside the box even though barring FG forming a coalition with FF it is probably the most stable government you are likely to get.

We have what could be a stable government, some say for maybe the next 15+ years.
While on top that sounds nice and good for the country, the previous elected masters had somewhat similar - and look how that went based on similar values of self-interest first, party second and country and public third.

Some things are not destined to change it seems.

Let me be clear, I'm NOT against either having a stab at clearing up the mess.
I am disappointed however to see that some indications are showing they are starting off by methods of old - not new ones.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

He has spoken many times as to the aspirations of the fresher, new thinking members such as Ged Nash (who are equally educated - if not more so by todays third level standards). I did not say Tommy Broughan was young so please do not infer that I have done so.

Permabear wrote: »

Please specify which independents or groups Fine Gael was supposed to talk to? Numerically, there are not enough right-leaning independents to form a coherent centre-right government. That leaves crackpot factions such as the ULA, which proposes that we need to overthrow the capitalist system and embrace Trotskyite socialism, and the gombeen contingent of Lowry, Healy Rae Jr., and friends, who just want money to build casinos, bypasses, and swimming pools galore in their constituencies.

Indeed and I'm not making a case for them either.
I'm making a case that those that sought (and did) lecture FF while they were in power, are now seen by others to be willing to say one thing and yet again do another.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I would suggest you read their main website for those - then compare them to what has been given up in order to get a seat of power.
What then has been won and lost can be found hugely in this Irish Times document - click HERE

Then read the following:
* http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/voter-betrayal-fglabour-to-ditch-pledges-on-economy-2567686.html
* http://www.thejournal.ie/coalition-deal-gets-tentative-welcome-from-international-press-2011-03/
* http://www.thejournal.ie/opposition-say-coalition-agreement-is-fudging-vital-issues-and-offering-more-of-the-same-2011-03/
* http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0307/1224291485412.html
* ...and what they are willing to live with and accept just to get into power? Example: http://www.thejournal.ie/labours-ruairi-quinn-criticises-fine-gaels-anti-market-attitudes-2011-03/

There are other reports on the unrest of the unions now and others within the Labour movement (and FG party too, to be fair).
It seems they will have to do some serious internal work to quell smoldering unrest before they can get down to solving problems beyond their org's.

Again to be fair, there is common ground between them. In a number of areas.
I and others are a bit weary only that they seem to be starting off on a footing that is sadly similar footing to the old ways of doing things and/or looking after one another for the sake of just gaining power!
That is never a good indication that change will be forth coming as desired by necessity and/or by the public.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Biggins

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I hear all what you say and there is good merit in it.
Speaking just for myself, I can understand compromise and understand why (Rome wasn't built in a day, etc), I'm saddened to see that for parties that spoke prior to election about desiring change, right from the get-go, then seem by some reports, to be up to some usual old style political unwaivering tricks and not even willing to talk to others at least.
I wish them well and I hope for the best. Their start off has me (and others) worried though that underneath it all, somethings won't be changing - and that how up to even now, political parties think and work in the same previous methodology as that has gone before.
Compromise for power sake - not for people sake? (In short)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm around stage 4 and heading for stage 5.
Wish everyone else would catch up...:D:D:D:D

Valmont

dan_d wrote: »

I'm around stage 4 and heading for stage 5.
Wish everyone else would catch up...:D:D:D:D

I'm finding stage one quite nice...hey look! A dog!