Sealing of windows in a new build

creedp

I want to ask for advice on whether window companies who supply and fit windows normally seal around the perimeter of the windows with silicone in a new build.

My window fitters refused to do this and simply used expanding foam to fill gaps claiming that window fitters never seal the windows of a new build as this is the builders job. On the other hand my builder thinks this is a disgrace and said he never heard of such as thing. He also fits windows and claims that he has never fitted a window into a new build or as a replacement without sealing around its perimeter.

The problem I now have is that my builder says the gaps at the top of some of the windows are too big to seal with silicone and he won't stand over the job in case there are leaks while the window company who received a very significant 100% payment up front are not interested.

Anyone come across this problem and what's the best way to address it. I know I can't mention names here but what are people's experiences with other companies in this regard.

Thanks in advance for advice

gman2k

Personally I would say that in a new build the exterior silicon seal would be the builder'r responsibility due to sequencing of trades.
You would only silicone the windows once the external render is done, and external render is only done once the windows are in....
So - window installers are long gone from site once the external render is complete.
It's also up to the builder to co-ordinate the window installation with other trades, and to make sure that they are installed correctly without large gaps - at top in your case.
Who organised your windows, and who measured the window sizes for ordering purposes?
Is the window supplier a nominated sub contractor, or are they domestic to the builder?

Finally, back to silicone, I would expect and insist that the window installers seat any windows on a bed of silicone on the window cills - if already installed....

braftery

The answer to your question depends on the method of construction you are using for your build.

Which are you using ?

braftery

gman2k wrote: »

Finally, back to silicone, I would expect and insist that the window installers seat any windows on a bed of silicone on the window cills - if already installed....

Windows should be installed plum, level and true. Failure to do so will in most cases void the warranty offered by the window gear manufacturer.

Before you insist that anyone seat your window on a bed of silicone best make sure that your cills are level.

Secondly if your window supplier is not installing your windows, make sure that any silicone that is in contact with the surface finish of the windows is neutral.

creedp

braftery wrote: »

The answer to your question depends on the method of construction you are using for your build.

Which are you using ?

I have a cavity block build with front windows surrounded by brick as walls are stone clad while the remainder of windows are surrounded by render except for brick at top. I can understand the issue re: render finish in that the fitters cannot seal the sides until render is complete. However, this is not the case with tops of windows as these have a metal lintel and could have been sealed by the fitters. Also the front windows were surrounded by brick which could also have been sealed on the day. However, the biggest problem is with the bay window which fits into a metal frame and the top of the window is about 3/4 inch below top of frame. I wasn't on site when windows were fitted and one of the builders people signed off on the fitting. I didn't notice this gap as its above eye level and it was only when the builder brought the large gap to my notice that I followed un with fitter who incidentially is also the supplier. He wasn't very helpful and made the point that the window opes sizes were signed off by my builder so any issue was his responsibility. I don't understandnthis as I would have thought as the window supplier measured the opes it is his problem!

Anyway the issue now is that the builder says that this bay window gap is too big to be sealed with silicone and he won't stand over it from the point of view of leaks. The Q is do I have any come back on the supplier/fitter? The windows were fitted 2 months ago and even though I contacted the windows supplier within 2 days of fitting they haven't come out to inspect the problem. The real problem here of course is that I was naive enough to hand over 100% of price prior to fitting and snagging.

Thanks for advice

braftery

Every job has variations in the assignment of the detailing. However on every major sub-contract of any build it is essential that at the time of measure/brief, the end user,the main contractor and the sub-contractor are on site together to go through all of the details and that a written record is taken of the agreements made.



1. Windows installed behind bricks or stone.

Window Sides

a. The position of the cill head will determine the possible methods for finishing.
i. if the cill head is in line with the standard vertical DPC and the inner and outer blocks are in line, then normally the main contractor will use a hidden plaster back to the window.
ii. The cill head is brought forward and the stone/brick is already in place. The window fitters would normally use a silicone or preferably a water proof expanding tape connected to the front face of the window and then the window is pressed up to the back of the stone/brick sealing.
iii. The cill is brought forward but the stone/brick is not in place, the stone mason will normally use a small mortar joint to seal back to the windows.

PS bringing windows forward to behind the stone is a common practise in Ireland, but I am very interested if there is any data for the loss of heat to the building from doing this ?

Window Heads

Steel Lintels

Can the window face be placed up against the back of the steel lintel ?
Is the steel lintel a straight line over the window ? (possibly creating a cold bridge!)

In either case, provided it was made clear at the time of measure, I would imagine the window supplier either using water proof expanding tape or a mastic/silicone seal at the top.


The gap at the top of the window:

This is quite possibly a measuring error, in which case it is entirely the window suppliers fault and you need to chase the company head until you get somebody on site with both you and your main contractor.

Prior to getting him on site, inspect the opening to make sure there is no reason why the window was made this height.

Is there a steel element or a nut/bolt lower then the rest of the steel at the corners of the bay, that might restrict the height ?
Are the cill and the steel both level across the full width of the bays ?

If the problem lies in the opening then the main contractor needs to deal with it, if everything is in order then you need to get the window supplier back on site and work out a solution.

I hope that helps

imitation

creedp wrote: »

I have a cavity block build with front windows surrounded by brick as walls are stone clad while the remainder of windows are surrounded by render except for brick at top. I can understand the issue re: render finish in that the fitters cannot seal the sides until render is complete. However, this is not the case with tops of windows as these have a metal lintel and could have been sealed by the fitters. Also the front windows were surrounded by brick which could also have been sealed on the day. However, the biggest problem is with the bay window which fits into a metal frame and the top of the window is about 3/4 inch below top of frame. I wasn't on site when windows were fitted and one of the builders people signed off on the fitting. I didn't notice this gap as its above eye level and it was only when the builder brought the large gap to my notice that I followed un with fitter who incidentially is also the supplier. He wasn't very helpful and made the point that the window opes sizes were signed off by my builder so any issue was his responsibility. I don't understandnthis as I would have thought as the window supplier measured the opes it is his problem!

Anyway the issue now is that the builder says that this bay window gap is too big to be sealed with silicone and he won't stand over it from the point of view of leaks. The Q is do I have any come back on the supplier/fitter? The windows were fitted 2 months ago and even though I contacted the windows supplier within 2 days of fitting they haven't come out to inspect the problem. The real problem here of course is that I was naive enough to hand over 100% of price prior to fitting and snagging.

Thanks for advice

This is one of those horrible grey areas that crop up between the various contractors. In my own build the window company sorted out details where the windows met any steel, I can't see why they didn't do it right as its a solid edge for them to work to, was the steel in place when they measured it ?

Some very solid advice from braferty on working out the details before hand (for any other readers). There are alot of little things that can be easily sorted with initial meetings, but are more difficult to sort when the windows are made and the cills are in. It can easily turn into a "Not my problem" situation where there is a miscommunication or element is left out by one of the parties.

creedp

First of all Raftery thanks for the very detailed response. As anyone who is familiar with my contributions to this forum I have little construction knowledge (and what I have has been gleaned from here!) and zero construction experience. Not a good basis to be trying to deal with problems like this.

1. Windows installed behind bricks or stone.

Window Sides

a. The position of the cill head will determine the possible methods for finishing.
i. if the cill head is in line with the standard vertical DPC and the inner and outer blocks are in line, then normally the main contractor will use a hidden plaster back to the window.
ii. The cill head is brought forward and the stone/brick is already in place. The window fitters would normally use a silicone or preferably a water proof expanding tape connected to the front face of the window and then the window is pressed up to the back of the stone/brick sealing.
iii. The cill is brought forward but the stone/brick is not in place, the stone mason will normally use a small mortar joint to seal back to the windows.

I will have to take this away and consider where by build lies. Option iii is out as the stone/brick was in place prior to installation. In relation to i I don't know what a hidden plaster back is but all I know is that ii didn't happen. The installers sealed the bottom of the windows with silicone but did not seal sides or top. In addition, the DPC around opes was not trimmed back so as these are outward opening windows its not possible to open them at present dues to the DPC blocking the sash from opening out.

Window Heads

Steel Lintels

Can the window face be placed up against the back of the steel lintel ?
Is the steel lintel a straight line over the window ? (possibly creating a cold bridge!)

In either case, provided it was made clear at the time of measure, I would imagine the window supplier either using water proof expanding tape or a mastic/silicone seal at the top.

I'll need to check this. I'm not sure how the window face could be placed against the back of the steel lintel as the lintel is flat and from my miminal recollection of the fitting I think the windows are simly bolted to the lintel but I could be wrong. How could the cold bridge issue be avoided? Does this mean that the windows should not make phyiscal contact with lintel other that via silicone/tape?

All I know is that my builder said the windows were not sealed against the lintels. When I questioned the supplier he told me the type/brand of silicone I should insist that my builder gets as he warned the builder may get a substandard one. He kept insisting that they never seal around windows in a new build.

The gap at the top of the window:

This is quite possibly a measuring error, in which case it is entirely the window suppliers fault and you need to chase the company head until you get somebody on site with both you and your main contractor.

Prior to getting him on site, inspect the opening to make sure there is no reason why the window was made this height.

Is there a steel element or a nut/bolt lower then the rest of the steel at the corners of the bay, that might restrict the height ?
Are the cill and the steel both level across the full width of the bays ?

If the problem lies in the opening then the main contractor needs to deal with it, if everything is in order then you need to get the window supplier back on site and work out a solution.

I hope that helps

RE: the gap - I will check the top of window to see what's going on but my memory of looking at this briefly before was that the gap was not completley uniform as it seemed to be a little narrower on one side. However, the steel was in place before the window was measured so this should have been taken into account by fitter.

Thanks again for advice/information. I will inspect the windows more closely and see what's going on. I should have done this before the scaffolding came down!!

creedp

imitation wrote: »

This is one of those horrible grey areas that crop up between the various contractors. In my own build the window company sorted out details where the windows met any steel, I can't see why they didn't do it right as its a solid edge for them to work to, was the steel in place when they measured it ?

Yes the steel was in place. All the opes were finished, except for the ones which required a render finish. However, the installers did not seal the sides/top of any window. When you say the window company sorted out details do you mean they sealed the windows and what did they use - silicone or water-proof tape?

Thanks again

martin46585

If as you say the window does not meet the catnic head, then it's the fault of the guy who measured them, the window should be bedded on bedding mastic on the fills, and sealed to the side jambs, and top egde, if they are finished, I.e. Stone, brick finished, on the issue of out of true, i would be quick sure it is neither the first or last time that the guy that measured them has seen a small variation in openings, so he could have allowed for this on making them, or brought it to your attention at the time of measuring, if the gap at the top is equal on both sides, that is an even amount the whole way along, then it is measurement error, have you not retained some of the price for exactly this kind of issue, ....have a chat about it and I'm sure if it's only one window, there will be middle ground somewhere, that suited all three parties........

imitation

creedp wrote: »

Yes the steel was in place. All the opes were finished, except for the ones which required a render finish. However, the installers did not seal the sides/top of any window. When you say the window company sorted out details do you mean they sealed the windows and what did they use - silicone or water-proof tape?

Thanks again

I was thinking of box steel when I made my first post ( I only noticed its lintel your referring to now). In the case of box steel it was cladded and sealed with silicone, as far as I can see, possibly something was used under the cladding too.

braftery

creedp,

From your original post it appears that you have a main contractor (builder), at least part of the reason you hired him is to cover for the fact that you didnt have the skill set or the experience to deal with detail issues on your build.

It also appears that you paid the window sub-contractor seperately from the main contractor, was the window sub-contractor a PC sum in the main contract and there is a 5% handling fee for the main contractor to look after the subbie or was it excluded entirely from the main contract ?

A few other issues that might bear a relevance on this issue;

1. Are the inner and outer blocks inline ?
2. Are you planning to use warm board internally ?
3. Who's job was it to trim the DPC ?
4. Using mastic or silicone between the brick and the DPC will not seal your building.
5. Are the bay windows broken up by steel posts ?
6. What is the variation between the smallest dimension and the largest dimension on your bay windows ?
7. Are the bay windows meant to be the same height as adjoining windows ?
8. if the answer to 7 is yes then, Are the bay window openings acutally the same height as the adjoining windows ?
9. If the answer to 8 is no, then are the bay windows the same height as the adjoining windows ?
10. if the answer to 9 is yes, was this maintaining of height agreed between the parties of the contract ?

In short all of the above need to be answered at the time of measure.

I keep banging on about this but there are a set of RAL norms for every aspect of building, this includes window and door fitting, these norms would clarify every aspect of this discussion.

Using them would mean we would all spend less time on boards.ie (sorry ops) but that the quality of our buildings in ireland would improve and our ability to deal with these kinds of issues would be come alot simpler.

Gulliver

If you dealt with him directly, then what right had the builder's crew to sign off on it? That's accepting responsibility in my opinion (and that's ONLY an opinion). I know a few people (direct labour and contracted) where the builders/workmen flat refused to sign for anything - even a delivery of materials. In the case of the contractor, he phoned the client to ask about signing for every delivery and refused to sign for extraneous services/trades.

My build was the same, but it was direct labour, so you'd expect that. To be honest I prefer to inspect and sign for everything, but as I'm currently unemployed, that's easy for me.

Best advice - get your architect/engineer involved right away. If you have mortgage, they'll have to sign off the stages anyway, so they have to be happy with the work or no cert.

creedp

Thanks Braftery, I'll try and deal with the all the points made by you

From your original post it appears that you have a main contractor (builder), at least part of the reason you hired him is to cover for the fact that you didnt have the skill set or the experience to deal with detail issues on your build.

Absolutely correct!

It also appears that you paid the window sub-contractor seperately from the main contractor, was the window sub-contractor a PC sum in the main contract and there is a 5% handling fee for the main contractor to look after the subbie or was it excluded entirely from the main contract ?

What happenned was that PVC windows were originally part of the contracted price (the builder sources and installs windows himself) but subsequently a friend of my wife installed alu-clad windows by a certain Dublin window company and had to have them. The agreement was that he would reduce the contracted price and we would source the windows seperately. Originally he wanted to install them so they would be done right but the window company preferred to install them but as he had overall responsibility for the build he would ensure they were satisfactorily installed. The problem here is lack of written agreements!!

A few other issues that might bear a relevance on this issue;

1. Are the inner and outer blocks inline ?
2. Are you planning to use warm board internally ?
3. Who's job was it to trim the DPC ?
4. Using mastic or silicone between the brick and the DPC will not seal your building.
5. Are the bay windows broken up by steel posts ?
6. What is the variation between the smallest dimension and the largest dimension on your bay windows ?
7. Are the bay windows meant to be the same height as adjoining windows ?
8. if the answer to 7 is yes then, Are the bay window openings acutally the same height as the adjoining windows ?
9. If the answer to 8 is no, then are the bay windows the same height as the adjoining windows ?
10. if the answer to 9 is yes, was this maintaining of height agreed between the parties of the contract ?

In short all of the above need to be answered at the time of measure.

1. Yes
2. No
3. Part of the uncertainty - window boys say builder - builder says the opposite! All I know is that when I pull back the DPC there is quite a gap between the brick and window frame in a few places exposing insulation.
4. Then I don't know where to go from here as neither of the parties have referred to any other product for this purpose. Even though builder was giving out about the installation for this reason I visited another house of his yesterday and found the same story - windows with brick surrounds were sealed with heavy beads of silicone andthere were fairly substantial gaps in places exposing in some places bits of DPC.
5. Yes the bays are broken by steel (cold bridge!) poles for which we are still waiting for the cladding to be installed.
6. Damm I forgot to measure that one by I would think that the side panels are about a 1/3 of the centre panel
7. Yes
8. Yes.

keep banging on about this but there are a set of RAL norms for every aspect of building, this includes window and door fitting, these norms would clarify every aspect of this discussion.

Using them would mean we would all spend less time on boards.ie (sorry ops) but that the quality of our buildings in ireland would improve and our ability to deal with these kinds of issues would be come alot simpler.

I've been going on about this myself and without the assistance of the many expert and helpful contribitions I have received (apologies for the volume of them) from Boards I would be in a lot worse position at this point.

creedp

martin46585 wrote: »

If as you say the window does not meet the catnic head, then it's the fault of the guy who measured them, the window should be bedded on bedding mastic on the fills, and sealed to the side jambs, and top egde, if they are finished, I.e. Stone, brick finished, on the issue of out of true, i would be quick sure it is neither the first or last time that the guy that measured them has seen a small variation in openings, so he could have allowed for this on making them, or brought it to your attention at the time of measuring, if the gap at the top is equal on both sides, that is an even amount the whole way along, then it is measurement error, have you not retained some of the price for exactly this kind of issue, ....have a chat about it and I'm sure if it's only one window, there will be middle ground somewhere, that suited all three parties........

The gap is not uniform all the way - for the middle section it is wider on one size but even at the narrower end is is too wide. Therre is a bracket welded at each end which is higher than the rest of the frame but even at these points there is a gap. If measured correctly I would have though the fit should have been very snug as these points. In relation to the side sections these have an uniform large gap all the way across so very much a measurement issue in my view.

Unfortunately I didn't keep any balance. They insisted that they required full payment before windows were unloaded. Having said that so did a couple of the other companies were sought quotes from. They seemed like a reputable company with a good quality product and I suppose I have to hold judgement until I see how all of this works out in the end but I'm tired of dealing with so called reputable guys in this way. We've had similar issues with banks, solicitors, engineers whereby we're constantly chasing them to get something finished with simple omissions and lack of concern for detail very prevalent.

braftery

Pm sent to you

QCS

It sounds like your builder shouldnt be a builder! For a start you should never face a cavity block wall with stone or brick. There are all kinds of damp issues that can crop up. If you check out building regs or homebond you will see that stone cladding should only be put on double leaf walls ie. 100mm block 100mm cavity 100mm block.
May I ask what method of insulation he is going to use with the cavity blocks?
On the windows. Im a builder myself and we always look after the sealing around the windows and with regards to the gaps.. they simple should not be there. So whoever is looking after that end of things should have pulled the window company or whoever measured them up.

Poor Uncle Tom

QCS wrote: »

It sounds like your builder shouldnt be a builder! For a start you should never face a cavity block wall with stone or brick. There are all kinds of damp issues that can crop up. If you check out building regs or homebond you will see that stone cladding should only be put on double leaf walls ie. 100mm block 100mm cavity 100mm block.

The above is totally wrong.
Any loadbearing stone or brick can be used as an element of cavity wall construction. Cladding is not loadbearing and therefore can not replace a leaf in a cavity wall. Cladding by its nature will go on over a cavity wall leaf.
This is off topic and stops here.

QCS wrote: »

May I ask what method of insulation he is going to use with the cavity blocks?

What relevance is this to the opening post?

QCS wrote: »

On the windows. Im a builder myself and we always look after the sealing around the windows and with regards to the gaps.. they simple should not be there. So whoever is looking after that end of things should have pulled the window company or whoever measured them up.

I agree with this.

If a building contractor finds that a job being carried out by a subbie, whether nominated or not, has not been carried out properly, I believe it is the contractors job to make sure the job is rectified properly and not left to the client to fix. I think the contractor should make the subbie aware of the consequences of not doing their job properly (no further work being put their way, etc.,) and should keep the client informed.

creedp

QCS wrote: »

It sounds like your builder shouldnt be a builder! For a start you should never face a cavity block wall with stone or brick. There are all kinds of damp issues that can crop up. If you check out building regs or homebond you will see that stone cladding should only be put on double leaf walls ie. 100mm block 100mm cavity 100mm block.
May I ask what method of insulation he is going to use with the cavity blocks?
On the windows. Im a builder myself and we always look after the sealing around the windows and with regards to the gaps.. they simple should not be there. So whoever is looking after that end of things should have pulled the window company or whoever measured them up.

Apologies, its my sloppy descriptions that is creating confusion here. My wall build up is a cavity wall , I.e. Two leafs with a 150mm cavity. I agree with you,re second point as it was only when I pulled back the untrimmed DPC from around window perimeter that I noted the irregular gaps between brick surround and window frame. I have been speaking to the builder as I am of the view that it was his responsibility to ensure that overall build is finished to an appropriate std.

QCS

Ok that makes a bit more sense. Im sorry if i offend poor unle tom but when I spoke about a cavity block wall I did mean A cavity block ie. a hollow block. And if you check it out you will find that you should not face cavity blocks with stone or brick. Nothing to do with load bearing. Sorry again if its off the original topic but dont like when people force a wrong opinion.

Poor Uncle Tom

QCS wrote: »

Im sorry if i offend.....dont like when people force a wrong opinion.

No offence taken, I understand, but please stay on topic.

imitation

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If a building contractor finds that a job being carried out by a subbie, whether nominated or not, has not been carried out properly, I believe it is the contractors job to make sure the job is rectified properly and not left to the client to fix. I think the contractor should make the subbie aware of the consequences of not doing their job properly (no further work being put their way, etc.,) and should keep the client informed.

I agree here, at the end of the day its the contractors responsibility to deliver a finished product. The question here is who should pay to rectify the problem, I imagine if the builder did not receive the main contractors discount for the sub contract he is not going to be willing to pay for the work to fix any problems. So it falls back to the client to chase down the subbie (as far as I can see).

I recall a previous post discussing the point of a MCD, I think this thread highlights the potential advantage.