German Defence minister resigns over plagiarism

donaghs

He has also resigned as an MP from parliament. Nothing to do with his political conduct, he was accused of plagiarism in his Phd.

Nice to see someone doing the honorable thing. Can you imagine an Irish minister in such a situation!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8360350/Karl-Theodor-zu-Guttenberg-quits-as-MP.html

bijapos

He went eventually after a long struggle. His resignation was in no way "honourable", it was forced bit by bit over a fortnight. He was supported in his position by Merkel, the media were beginning to take the heat off him last Friday but then interestingly enough it was various academics and academic councils who put more pressure on him to leave.

A big blow to the CDU-CSU, I would have tipped him to be a future Chancellor. It comes only a few weeks after the resignation of Axel Weber as head of the Bundesbank and will compound a difficult year for Merkel with a few more state elections coming up. She has already lost control of the senate.

It also shows one of the advantages of a list system, his party do not have to fear losing any power in terms of numbers if he leaves, he is merely replaced by the next on the list. Therefore there are no real excuses for him to stay on. Worth considering.

ednwireland

an irish td witha phd is there such a thing

Iwasfrozen

Honestly, why is plagiarism always considered such a big deal? He should have just said sorry and stayed on. No way a good politician should have to step down over plagiarism.

ednwireland wrote: »

an irish td witha phd is there such a thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Reilly_(Irish_politician)

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honestly, why is plagiarism always considered such a big deal? He should have just said sorry and stayed on. No way a good politician should have to step down over plagiarism.

It's academic fraud. It's a pretty big deal tbh.

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's academic fraud. It's a pretty big deal tbh.

It's big deal if your an academic but this guy was a politician now. No way he should have had to step down over it.

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's big deal if your an academic but this guy was a politician now. No way he should have had to step down over it.

No, it's a big deal full stop. If someone committed fraud in their business life, and then turned to politics, would their business fraud not matter anymore? What does it say about someone who cheats to get what they want?

Amusingly, the guy's name is Dr. Guttenburg...the German press now call him 'Dr. Googleburg'.

dan_d

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's big deal if your an academic but this guy was a politician now. No way he should have had to step down over it.

It's an extremely big deal.You've earned a qualification by "false" means, which calls everything about it into question.Plagiarism in undergrad degrees is looked on extremely seriously, let alone phD's

Boskowski

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honestly, why is plagiarism always considered such a big deal? He should have just said sorry and stayed on. No way a good politician should have to step down over plagiarism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Reilly_(Irish_politician)

It's a very big deal.

Do you reckon you'd get any good job again in your professional life it it became public knowledge that you obtained your degree through a swindle?

Also consider that we're talking about the christian democrats here, a party that is the self-proclaimed upholder of 'values'. What kind of signal does that send out to Joe Soap?

PeterIanStaker

Whatever this guy did, he's a politician from another country that is not Ireland, he can't possibly have done anything seriously wrong . . . .

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

No, it's a big deal full stop. If someone committed fraud in their business life, and then turned to politics, would their business fraud not matter anymore? What does it say about someone who cheats to get what they want?

Amusingly, the guy's name is Dr. Guttenburg...the German press now call him 'Dr. Googleburg'.

Oh hardly. For starters business fraud is illegal. It can't be compared with taking a few sentences out of someone elses essay. Honestly you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

You remind of people who lecture others about downloading music.

dan_d wrote:

It's an extremely big deal.You've earned a qualification by "false" means, which calls everything about it into question.Plagiarism in undergrad degrees is looked on extremely seriously, let alone phD's

Then his phD should be declared void, but he shouldn't have to step down as a politician.

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh hardly. For starters business fraud is illegal. It can't be compared with taking a few sentences out of someone elses essay. Honestly you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

You remind of people who lecture others about downloading music.

And you can't compare a PhD to some essay you write in first year in Galway Mayo Institute of Technology. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have a clue what a PhD is.

And I find it amusing that you think that academic fraudsters make for good politicians. Are you a Fianna Failure voter, by any chance?

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh hardly. For starters business fraud is illegal. It can't be compared with taking a few sentences out of someone elses essay. Honestly you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

You remind of people who lecture others about downloading music.


Then his phD should be declared void, but he shouldn't have to step down as a politician.

His Ph.D. has been stripped.

You seem to think this is not a big deal, but it raises serious questions about his integrity, which in turns makes me question yours.

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And you can't compare a PhD to some essay you write in first year in Galway Mayo Institute of Technology. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have a clue what a PhD is.

I'm well aware of what a thesis is and if he didn't earn his phD legitimately it should be taken from him. But there is no reason why an otherwise good politician should have to stand down over this.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And I find it amusing that you think that academic fraudsters make for good politicians. Are you a Fianna Failure voter, by any chance?

Nope, Fine Gael.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm well aware of what a thesis is and if he didn't earn his phD legitimately it should be taken from him. But there is no reason why an otherwise good politician should have to stand down over this.


Nope, Fine Gael.

Screw ethics and integrity then so, it's great to hear you hold your politicians up to such a high standard.

View

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's big deal if your an academic but this guy was a politician now. No way he should have had to step down over it.

It might be a minor point here. It is not in Germany.

Having a PhD is practically mandatory for appointment/election to senior positions in Germany. Titles are used and are very important. It would be a major faux pas to fail to address Angela Merkel - in German - as "Mrs Doctor Chancellor Merkel"...

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

His Ph.D. has been stripped.

You seem to think this is not a big deal, but it raises serious questions about his integrity, which in turns makes me question yours.

Alright, hs phD has been stripped. He shouldn't have had to step down. He was already astanding as an MP befor he was discovered so he obviously wasn't incompetent.

karma_ wrote:

Screw ethics and integrity then so, it's great to hear you hold your politicians up to such a high standard.

What?

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm well aware of what a thesis is and if he didn't earn his phD legitimately it should be taken from him. But there is no reason why an otherwise good politician should have to stand down over this.

How do you know he was a good politician?

If he stole money from a bank, and it was taken back from him, do you think he should still be allowed to hold his political position? If not, what is the difference?

ednwireland

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh hardly. For starters business fraud is illegal. It can't be compared with taking a few sentences out of someone elses essay. Honestly you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And you can't compare a PhD to some essay you write in first year in Galway Mayo Institute of Technology. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you have a clue what a PhD is.

And I find it amusing that you think that academic fraudsters make for good politicians. Are you a Fianna Failure voter, by any chance?

my oh teaches in an IT and they've given several students 0 marks for work which had sections cut and pasted from the internet (you might think that isnt much but that could easily drop you a grade )

plagiarism is taken very seriously

Monty Burnz

ednwireland wrote: »

my oh teaches in an IT and they've given several students 0 marks for work which had sections cut and pasted from the internet (you might think that isnt much but that could easily drop you a grade )

plagiarism is taken very seriously

I'm sure it is - and as you go further up the educational scale it is taken more and more seriously.

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How do you know he was a good politician?

If he stole money from a bank, and it was taken back from him, do you think he should still be allowed to hold his political position? If not, what is the difference?

This is Germany not Ireland, bad politicians aren't elected in the first place.

And are you really comparing cheating on a glorified essay to robbing a bank? They're not exactly the same thing.

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sure it is - and as you go further up the educational scale it is taken more and more seriously.

Oh I know it is. I was once knocked down from an -A to an E during my first term in UCD for copying one sentence from wikipedia. The tutor gave me a look that I can only imagine was reserved for Hitler! :pac:

take everything

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honestly, why is plagiarism always considered such a big deal? He should have just said sorry and stayed on. No way a good politician should have to step down over plagiarism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Reilly_(Irish_politician)

He's a medical doctor (which is MB BCh BAO).
What PhD does he have?

Boskowski

View wrote: »

It might be a minor point here. It is not in Germany.

Having a PhD is practically mandatory for appointment/election to senior positions in Germany. Titles are used and are very important. It would be a major faux pas to fail to address Angela Merkel - in German - as "Mrs Doctor Chancellor Merkel"...

That is simply not true I'm afraid. There is no requirement for a formal qualification for an elected representative in Germany. Not even an implied one.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh I know it is. I was once knocked down from an -A to an E during my first term in UCD for copying one sentence from wikipedia. The tutor gave me a look that I can only imagine was reserved for Hitler! :pac:

So you are studying for a degree I presume, have experience that using work from another source is frowned upon yet you fail to see this as a big deal?

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

So you are studying for a degree I presume, have experience that using work from another source is frowned upon yet you fail to see this as a big deal?

Yes, I didn't get it at the time and I still don't get it now. So I copyed and rearranged a few sentences form wikipedia. There are wrose things happening in the world.

Having said that I have been careful never to do it again.

kippy

Jaysus,
theres a lot of people hopping on the plagiarism is a major big deal thing on this thread.
It amuses me.

Definition of plagiarrism:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:plagiarism&sa=X&ei=LwpxTbipHtCbhQeO4uFJ&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQkAE

There is NO issue with using someone elses work in these pieces, in fact thats the whole point of a lot of degree level (and indeed higher level) works.
The act of plagiarism occurs when you present it as your own, that is, you dont reference it.
Thats not a big deal in the real world (of which politics pertains to be part of)

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, I didn't get it at the time and I still don't get it now. So I copyed and rearranged a few sentences form wikipedia. There are wrose things happening in the world.

Having said that I have been careful never to do it again.

You don't get what exactly? That using work by someone else is a bad thing?

I have to say that I believe that you understand very well how this is frowned upon, especially in academic circles and therefore you must be playing devil's advocate here.

Cavehill Red

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh hardly. For starters business fraud is illegal. It can't be compared with taking a few sentences out of someone elses essay. Honestly you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

He cut and pasted around 50,000 words without attributing it to the author.
Now, even if he'd said - here's all this stuff that someone else wrote, he would never have got his doctorate because it's half or more of the entire thesis made up of quotation, not original research.
But he didn't even do that. He sought to pass it off as his own work, which is theft and fraud.
He held positions in two universities and his ministerial brief oversaw aspects of academia too. It was utterly unsustainable for him to remain in any of those positions once it became evident that the bulk of his thesis was a robbed cut-and-paste job.

djpbarry

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And are you really comparing cheating on a glorified essay to robbing a bank? They're not exactly the same thing.

No, they're not the same thing. Neither is a PhD thesis and an essay.

karma_

kippy wrote: »

Jaysus,
theres a lot of people hopping on the plagiarism is a major big deal thing on this thread.
It amuses me.

Definition of plagiarrism:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:plagiarism&sa=X&ei=LwpxTbipHtCbhQeO4uFJ&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQkAE

There is NO issue with using someone elses work in these pieces, in fact thats the whole point of a lot of degree level (and indeed higher level) works.
The act of plagiarism occurs when you present it as your own, that is, you dont reference it.
Thats not a big deal in the real world (of which politics pertains to be part of)

There's a world of difference between citing another source and passing it off as your own, and I would suggest that those who have posted in this thread were already aware of the difference.

Cavehill Red

And there's a fair usage limit to quotations too. Using a few lines from Doctor X and then saying, Doctor X clearly supports my argument in his own work as he says here, is fine.
Cutting and pasting 50,000 words of Doctor X's work is not fair usage, even if you do cite him as the author.
And when you don't, it's theft and fraud and obtaining a degree by deception.

kippy

karma_ wrote: »

There's a world of difference between citing another source and passing it off as your own, and I would suggest that those who have posted in this thread were already aware of the difference.

Just read what the guy did there.
Yep looks like he did a major bit of cheating (Not just not quoting a reference or two) to get his PhD.
He did the honourable thing - despite it being somewhat forced upon him.

We've politicians in this country who wouldn't do the right thing if there were no other option.

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And are you really comparing cheating on a glorified essay to robbing a bank?

Ah - it becomes clear that you don't know what a PhD is.

Boskowski

kippy wrote: »

Jaysus,
theres a lot of people hopping on the plagiarism is a major big deal thing on this thread.
It amuses me.

Definition of plagiarrism:
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:plagiarism&sa=X&ei=LwpxTbipHtCbhQeO4uFJ&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQkAE

There is NO issue with using someone elses work in these pieces, in fact thats the whole point of a lot of degree level (and indeed higher level) works.
The act of plagiarism occurs when you present it as your own, that is, you dont reference it.
Thats not a big deal in the real world (of which politics pertains to be part of)

Which is exactly what he has done. He copied and pasted from various sources and conveniently forgot to reference them. And its not a snippet here and there but amounts to a significant percentage of his dissertation.

He also didn't hold up his hand and admitted but started with 'outrageous' and gave in bit by bit when it became apparent that his position became indefensible.

He's not a bad guy but its such a stupid thing to do and the way he handled it was pathetic.

And swindling to gain a PhD is a big thing. How could anyone think its not?

Cavehill Red

I'd go further, Boskowski. I'd say he is a wrong un.
If I did four years work developing a patent for a new invention and you nicked it and marketed it as your own, you're going to prison for a very long time once the theft is proven in court, plus you'll be paying me an absolute fortune in damages.
Effectively, you'd have stolen the product of four years of my work.
It's no different if that work is non-commercial or academic. In one sense, it's worse, because the nature of academic research is such that it is built on the concepts of peer review and attribution of work. Therefore anyone with an academic position or who holds ministerial office overseeing academia who behaves as this man did has knowingly stolen work of others, committed fraud, obtained qualifications by deception and then pursued ministerial office partly on the basis of those qualifications.
To be honest, if we send people to jail for stealing handbags, I see no reason for this man not to be facing pokey.

Iwasfrozen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ah - it becomes clear that you don't know what a PhD is.

I'm well aware of what a phD was.

Monty Burnz

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm well aware of what a phD was.

Why did you refer to a PhD as 'a glorified essay' in that case? It kind of suggests you don't have a clue.

liammur

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honestly, why is plagiarism always considered such a big deal? He should have just said sorry and stayed on. No way a good politician should have to step down over plagiarism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Reilly_(Irish_politician)

High standards. We saw nothing wrong with bertie ahern's bogus london school of economics,,,,,,we paid the ultimate price.

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, I didn't get it at the time and I still don't get it now. So I copyed and rearranged a few sentences form wikipedia. There are wrose things happening in the world.

Having said that I have been careful never to do it again.

A few posts ago it was explicitly "one sentence", now it's "a few sentences"

Why don't people tell the truth instead of twisting it?