Regulation of self-builds

pmandcivileng

I’m going to put this out there to all Construction Professionals, Building Contractors, Bona-fide sub-contractors, suppliers etc. I personally would like to see much tighter regulation of the self-build sector. Starting with the 2 main areas which I believe are causing a lot of harm to the industry, <SNIP> lack of enforcement of Building Control.

Building Control

The current system is a sham. There is effectively no Building Control in this country. The current way of self-regulation has to stop. I have never met an officer from the council Building control office on site in my entire professional life. (14 years). I have worked on both large scale developments (500-600 units) and the one off home builds. What exactly are these Building Control officers doing?
The current system of building control is effectively done by self-builders who:

a. Hire the cheapest Architect/Engineer/Technician they can find.
b. Hire the Architect/Engineer/Technician who is prepared to sign off on whatever they need.
c. Only call the professional when they need money
d. Expect the professional to sign off on work not completed/incomplete/bad workmanship. If they don’t they wont get paid.

Now I’m not saying anything against the person doing the signing off, the majority of professionals are decent honourable professionals who value their integrity and professional identity. But there are the unscrupolous ones who are usually the cheapest, who don’t even visit the site before submitting certification and who are exploiting the lack of Building Control. I used to do mortgage supervision but have stopped doing it as I felt I was leaving myself wide open to litigation if I signed off on some of the stuff I was asked to. I have lost money due to this but I wouldn’t be able to take the hit if I was sued for something which I may not have even seen. I have seen sewerage put in wrong location on site, cheap septic tanks put in where different system specified. Houses built substantially bigger than on plan, additional windows, site entrance position moved, etc etc. Some of the self-builds I’ve seen recently have been nothing short of shambolic.
Don’t get me started on Part L. I have not done one BER for a new build in the period since the current Building Regulations came into force even though a final BER is supposed to be completed before occupation of a new dwelling. How many air-pressure tests are being done on new builds?
What can we do to get better enforcement in this country? Lobby your county counciller? The new TD’s. Form a pressure group? The CIF are supposed to represent the construction industry but from my knowledge they don’t have any interest in the self-build sector .
I’m open to speaking to like minded professionals and contractors. I’m not prepared to be silent on this any more but I’m just one voice. Would a collective group be the way to go?
All opinions welcome


Mod edit: Part of post removed as its not relevant to this forum

martinn123

<SNIP>
Take a look at what, someone's botched job, no thanks, I put my best quote foreward, and you went with the cheapest, now missing, so called builder you could find.What do you want me to do, take over the job and give a warranty to crap work.

Hope this thread attracts some like minded posters.



Mod edit: Part of post removed as its not relevant to this forum

muffler

pmandcivileng can you tell us what you hope to achieve with this thread?

pmandcivileng

Its a construction discussion board isnt it ? I want to hear from other people about their views of the industry at the moment. Surely there are lots of builders, engineers, architects, tradespeople browsing these threads who have an interest in this topic. Its about time these people had a voice.

<SNIP>

Also I'd like to see the Building Control Officers sitting in County council offices get off their asses and do some work. I dont want to see anyone in the Public sector losing their job or anything. I would rather see them working harder and being accountable for their actions or inactions.
The standard of construction in self-builds is very poor with lack of professional supervision being a major factor. Short cuts are being taken.
A friend of mine is in the process of taking out every one of his windows at the moment. Paid cash to a blocklayer based on a cheap price. This guy left the DPC in every single window ope too short and they are all letting in water. Of course this blocklayer is not coming back to rectify his f*** up and there is no insurance in place to pursue costs. Needless to say my friend was very sheepish when he told me about all this as he knows my views on quality and self-builds.
I could go on to tell you about maybe 15 other self-builds I have surveyed in the past year for faults. Dormer windows leaking, insulation missing, roofs sagging, excessive cracking, draughts, heating systems not working efficently, non-compliance with Building Regulations only coming to light when house is offered for sale. Need I go on ?
So what do I hope to achieve with this thread? I want a discussion on the problems facing genuine businesses in the self-build sector. I don’t see any problem with that.


Mod edit: Part of post removed as its not relevant to this forum

No6

Perhaps it should be a discussion on the very poor standards of workmanship we have all experienced from all trades in all forms of construction wheather direct or under contract in the last few years, as for the black market, possible dole fraud and tax evasion, I think the mods should have a say on weather this is ok under the charter before proceeding very far with the topic!!

martinn123

fair comment No6, a discussion on poor workmanship should be encouraged.

If you search for instance in the DIY Forum, you will find ''Hundreds'' of comments on a window co based in the South, regarding extremely poor workmanship.

In Prices/ Costs you can post on the value of a window quote, but in Construction naming a Co will result in a Snip or Ban.

Fair enough thats the Charter, but loads of ''Potential Customers'' read these Forums looking for tips on what to look out for, and a discussion on Workmanship, Black Economy,Warranty, should be OK, in my opinion.

I do not want a Forum for moaners, but the buying public should be able to read about the common '' Tricks of the Trade''

Poor Uncle Tom

pmandcivileng wrote: »

I read these boards regularly and hear the plenty of posters who like to brag about their dealings in black market labour for example. I'm sure you've seen the phrase ''cash is king'' regularly on these pages. Plenty of advocation of cash deals and the like.

This is true and I'm sure you have also seen where the moderators have taken those people to task.

pmandcivileng wrote: »

I'd love to see the Revenue targeting the self-builds for underhand payments to cash merchants.

That's entirely up to you, if you are aware of this happening then report it.

pmandcivileng wrote: »

The accounts of anyone self-building should be open to scrutiny from the Revenue the same as a legitimate business especially considering the sums of money involved.

They are.

pmandcivileng wrote: »

Also I'd like to see the Building Control Officers sitting in County council offices get off their asses and do some work. I dont want to see anyone in the Public sector losing their job or anything. I would rather see them working harder and being accountable for their actions or inactions.

Since there are very few BC officers in each county it would be very difficult for them to comprehensively deal with the building industry in relation to Building Regulations. The system needs to change for it to be affective.

pmandcivileng wrote: »

The standard of construction in self-builds is very poor with lack of professional supervision being a major factor. Short cuts are being taken.

What do you propose to rectify the situation?

pmandcivileng wrote: »

A friend of mine is in the process of taking out every one of his windows at the moment. Paid cash to a blocklayer based on a cheap price. This guy left the DPC in every single window ope too short and they are all letting in water. Of course this blocklayer is not coming back to rectify his f*** up and there is no insurance in place to pursue costs. Needless to say my friend was very sheepish when he told me about all this as he knows my views on quality and self-builds.

Horror stories abound, brought on by greed or lack of knowledge. But, that is hardly a Building Control or blackmarket issue.

pmandcivileng wrote: »

I could go on to tell you about maybe 15 other self-builds I have surveyed in the past year for faults. Dormer windows leaking, insulation missing, roofs sagging, excessive cracking, draughts, heating systems not working efficently, non-compliance with Building Regulations only coming to light when house is offered for sale. Need I go on ?

No, we have all seen it. Should there be a pre-building course for clients similar to the pre-marrage course for couples?

pmandcivileng wrote: »

So what do I hope to achieve with this thread? I want a discussion on the problems facing genuine businesses in the self-build sector. I don’t see any problem with that.

You will need more than one thread for that. That could take up a whole forum.

No6 wrote: »

Perhaps it should be a discussion on the very poor standards of workmanship we have all experienced from all trades in all forms of construction wheather direct or under contract in the last few years, as for the black market, possible dole fraud and tax evasion, I think the mods should have a say on weather this is ok under the charter before proceeding very far with the topic!!

Thank you, we are discussing it.

tred

I echo some of the comments. My main problem with this thread is, there should be absolutely be no different type of regulation for any build. It should make absolutely no difference if its a self build or if its a
"Builder". 80 Percent of Builders today, are pulling in cheap labour at many stages of the build when they can do it. Its unfair suggesting a targeted approach against selfbuilds.

sydthebeat

this forum is for the discussion and debate on construction and planning issues. It is NOT a forum to rant off about social welfare fraudsters, so that part of your discussion can STOP NOW. Go over to the tax forum or the After Hours for that......

so for all others reading this thread:

there is to be no commenting on social welfare or tax fraud.

Everyone knows its wrong, and everyone knows it happens.



On building control, you are saying nothing that hasnt been said here many times before.

To the OP, either direct this thread into a meaningful discussion or expect it to be deleted as another rant thread.

gman2k

And the DOE inspectors are to be culled shortly also, due to changes in the last budget.
So there will be even less regulation/ inspection.

There was too much lobbying by the CIF and others during the last decade about how stringent our regulations and enforcement were!!!

This will rear it's ugly head in this country soon enough when people who are in negative equity and cannot afford to pay their mortgages start finding out that their houses were not even built in compliance with building regulations, yet were signed off under a self regulated system as being substantially compliant. If the law society or banks were to change their mind on accepting the words 'substantially compliant' their would be some fun in this country.

I snagged a newly built house in a development for a friend a few years back, and when I pointed out to the builder all the non complaint issues he didn't want to know. I got in touch with the certifying architect and I found out that his only involvement was to produce the planning drawings (for the client - who was builder and developer). He had never visited the site during construction stage, or at completion, yet was able to certify the project!!!!!
I got in touch with local building control - with much difficulty - and they professed zero interest in doing anything about any of the issues I raised. (Their offices were about 1 mile from this project).

But wait - see how this compares with Bulgaria. Now some may have visions and prejudices about some eastern European countries being behind the curve on certain issues.... Not the case!!!
I was involved in a Bulgarian resi development on the Black Sea Coast. At planning stage, all working drawings and specs for construction stage had to be lodged. The developer had to pay for the full time site involvement of a state appointed clerk of works who would oversee all regulatory compliance - none of this wink nudge nod nod self compliance regulatory malarky.

Without people talking and ranting about these very important issues, nothing will change in this country!

mickdw

To be fair, building control are now inspecting a percentage of all housing being commenced in Mayo at least. From the requests I see from them, Id say they are at 25 to 30% of new builds now. They are generally looking for deap file and how you propose to provide U values together with details of bulding ventilation and details to show compliance with part M. They are visiting 2 to 3 times per build I think. I have not seen them make any comment in relation to airtightness or request test results etc.
I agree that the whole idea of private business issuing the compliance certification is wrong though.

sydthebeat

good to hear of mayos progressiveness mickdw... but alas i cant say the same for LAs near me

muffler

We have discussed this thread in our mods forum and we were all in agreement that tax evasion and social welfare fraud are issues for other forums as they are not exclusive to the construction industry. In any event such discussions would be at adds with what this forum represents and is used for.

Accordingly I have now tidied up a couple of the posts and debate may continue on shoddy work practices etc.

Can I ask everyone to stay on topic now please.

Cheers.

braftery

What this thread really needs to focus on is;

1. Building Standard and Practise.
2. Control of those Standards.

In order to have a quality control system of any sort in this country we first need to have a minimum required standard. To my knowledge, in practical terms, these standards do not exist. Yes we have building regulation, however there are no method statements attached to these regulations and no therefore no right or wrong way to measure if the regulations have been achieved.

A set of norms exists, called the RAL norms, these are used by most european countries as the accepted methods for achieving the connected building regulations. The RAL norms cover every aspect and every detail of construction. Using these norms allows for the training of apprentices to an industry standard.

Adoption of a set of method / guidelines, like the RAL norms would give any building control authority a basis on which to judge disputes. These norms protect all of the parties to any potential dispute (end users, main contractor and often multiple sub-contractors), as they form the basis on which all investigations must be carried out and they negate disputes about best practise.

In Ireland we have chosen to ignore these RAL norms and have left ourselves with an unregulated construction sector.

As far as I am aware, most contractors use the "Home Bond" book as the basis for construction. This book while useful, it is, in places, at varience with the norms that exist in other countries and is most definitely incomplete when it comes to integration details, especially in relation to some of the construction methods being more recently adopted in Ireland.

In my opinion, the adoption of a set of "norms" is essential and is the first step to a properly regulated and controlled construction sector.

sydthebeat

braftery wrote: »

Yes we have building regulation, however there are no method statements attached to these regulations and no therefore no right or wrong way to measure if the regulations have been achieved.

braferty, can you please expand on this point?

Personally, i have never had any problem, at a domestic scale, in measuring whether regulations are met or not. Can you give us an example?

To be honest, i think the TGDs actually completely disagree with your point.
The "building regulations" are actually very short generalistic points.... the TGDs are a prima facie way to comply with these regulations.... actually, they ARE a "method statement" of how to comply.

braftery

Syd,

perhaps I used the wrong word .. when I said measure, I meant to have an approved example to measure or check a method of construction against.

The TGD give all of the details relevant for the particular guideline.

Example:

Part M Rules give you all of the measurements that must be adhered to to deliver the rule, but there is no guideline or examples anywhere that gives us best practise for the integration of doors (in particular thresholds) into buildings using different methods of construction. Nor, to my knowledge, is this detail delivered anywhere else in the TGD.

The thread below gives a good example of the problems that exist in Ireland in relation to integration and junctions between elements and trades.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056199224

I believe that providing a set of guidelines that can be used as best practise in construction would allow all parties to mediate any dispute and create the basis for a building control system that would be useful to the industry and the end user.

briman1983

Does anyone know where your would find the latest statistics on new houses constructed vs houses inspected.

Have spent 3 hours looking but no Joy.

Rgds,

Brian

sydthebeat

see page 13 here

specifically
"Inspections:
· 100% of Authorities carrying out inspections.
· Target Level: 80% of 37 BCA meeting re-stated inspection target of 12%-15% of buildings
covered by valid Commencement Notices.
· All authorities should aim to achieve minimum inspection target, by end 2005."

so 80% of BCA are meeting the required 12-15% of buildings where commencement notices are submitted.

so then try to extrapolate how many commencemnet notices are sent in for houses (probably a high percentage rate in urban situations, and very low in rural situations)....
also consider that commencement notices will are much more likely be submitted for other types of buildings.

If i was to put a figure of BCA inspections on all new dwellings over the last 5 years id guesstimate probably 5% max.